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Wishful thinking

Good4Nothin

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I was just thinking about wishful thinking, and wanted to post something short about it. Because it inevitably comes up in debates between spiritual believers and atheists.

I don't want to say a lot about it, just sort of get it out of the way.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And I hope it will. So my thinking about the sunrise is influenced by wishful thinking. Does that mean my belief is naive or stupid or wrong?

I believe I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow. And I hope I won't. Similarly, does that mean my belief that I won't get hit by a bus is mere wishful thinking?

I wonder if you atheists are getting the point. It is certainly possible to believe something that we hope is true, without our belief being governed by wishful thinking.

I believe the universe is intelligent, and conscious. I believe it for scientific and logical reason which I have worked on all my life. My beliefs regarding this are intellectual, not emotional. However, I like believing what I believe.

Does the fact that I like my beliefs make them invalid, or suspicious?

Wishful thinking can't be ignored and it has a part in all our thinking. However, it is not logical to say a person's beliefs are entirely nonsense if the person likes their beliefs.

I also have a lot of beliefs that I don't like having. So obviously our beliefs are not controlled by wishful thinking, although there can be some influence.
 

zyzygy

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I was just thinking about wishful thinking, and wanted to post something short about it. Because it inevitably comes up in debates between spiritual believers and atheists.

I don't want to say a lot about it, just sort of get it out of the way.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And I hope it will. So my thinking about the sunrise is influenced by wishful thinking. Does that mean my belief is naive or stupid or wrong?

I believe I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow. And I hope I won't. Similarly, does that mean my belief that I won't get hit by a bus is mere wishful thinking?

I wonder if you atheists are getting the point. It is certainly possible to believe something that we hope is true, without our belief being governed by wishful thinking.

I believe the universe is intelligent, and conscious. I believe it for scientific and logical reason which I have worked on all my life. My beliefs regarding this are intellectual, not emotional. However, I like believing what I believe.

Does the fact that I like my beliefs make them invalid, or suspicious?

Wishful thinking can't be ignored and it has a part in all our thinking. However, it is not logical to say a person's beliefs are entirely nonsense if the person likes their beliefs.

I also have a lot of beliefs that I don't like having. So obviously our beliefs are not controlled by wishful thinking, although there can be some influence.

You atheists? We are individuals with our own opinions. I am all in favor of wishful thinking. It can be done by everyone regardless of religious belief or lack of it. Your point is obvious, it's not a proposition from Wittgenstein.
 

Good4Nothin

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You atheists? We are individuals with our own opinions. I am all in favor of wishful thinking. It can be done by everyone regardless of religious belief or lack of it. Your point is obvious, it's not a proposition from Wittgenstein.

I was trying to explain that are beliefs are not invalidated just because we like them. I did not say I'm in favor of wishful thinking, or anything like that. Can't imagine how you got that from what I said.
 

zyzygy

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I was trying to explain that are beliefs are not invalidated just because we like them. I did not say I'm in favor of wishful thinking, or anything like that. Can't imagine how you got that from what I said.

Why would beliefs be invalidated if we like them?
 

Good4Nothin

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Why would beliefs be invalidated if we like them?

You don't know that it's a typical argument against spiritual or religious beliefs? That people believe these things just because they want them to be true?

It's hard communicating with someone who never heard of anything.
 

zyzygy

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You don't know that it's a typical argument against spiritual or religious beliefs? That people believe these things just because they want them to be true?

It's hard communicating with someone who never heard of anything.

It's a silly argument. That's probably why you like it.
 

zyzygy

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My, someone is tetchy today! PMS?
 

Good4Nothin

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I agree its a silly argument, but it comes up in every argument with atheists. All of their arguments tend to be silly.
 

zyzygy

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I agree its a silly argument, but it comes up in every argument with atheists. All of their arguments tend to be silly.

Don't worry your pretty little head about it.
 

Tim the plumber

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I was just thinking about wishful thinking, and wanted to post something short about it. Because it inevitably comes up in debates between spiritual believers and atheists.

I don't want to say a lot about it, just sort of get it out of the way.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And I hope it will. So my thinking about the sunrise is influenced by wishful thinking.

Personally I would say that I expect the sun to rise tomorrow as the evidence strongly implies that it will.

Does that mean my belief is naive or stupid or wrong?

Nope. The wanting it to happen does not matter.

I believe I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow. And I hope I won't. Similarly, does that mean my belief that I won't get hit by a bus is mere wishful thinking?

Sort of. It would be better to say that you don't expect to be hit by a bus. More accurate.

I wonder if you atheists are getting the point. It is certainly possible to believe something that we hope is true, without our belief being governed by wishful thinking.

Yes.

I believe the universe is intelligent, and conscious. I believe it for scientific and logical reason which I have worked on all my life.

That's the bit that is purely wishful thinking without supporting evidence. That you can't explain why you think this with evidence is the problem.

My beliefs regarding this are intellectual, not emotional.

100% wrong. You are purely being emotional about that.

However, I like believing what I believe.

OK.

Does the fact that I like my beliefs make them invalid, or suspicious?

No. It's the total lack of any evidence to support them.

Wishful thinking can't be ignored and it has a part in all our thinking.

True, or can be. There are pessimists out there as well.

However, it is not logical to say a person's beliefs are entirely nonsense if the person likes their beliefs.

It is if they believe just because they like the belief. Then it's drivel.
I also have a lot of beliefs that I don't like having. So obviously our beliefs are not controlled by wishful thinking, although there can be some influence.

So use your interlect and examine which beliefs are justified by evidence if you want to be honest with yourself.

I hope you will read this. I hope you will think about it. I hope you will get the idea that us Atheists do understand what you are and what you are thinking, and why.

I hope you develope the confidence to live without the fairy as I think you will find it better.
 
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zyzygy

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Personally I would say that I expect the sun to rise tomorrow as the evidence strongly implies that it will.



Nope. The wanting it to happen does not matter.



Sort of. It would be better to say that you don't expect to be hit by a bus. More accurate.



Yes.



That's the bit that is purely wishful thinking without supporting evidence. That you can't explain why you think this with evidence is the problem.



100% wrong. You are purely being emotional about that.



OK.



No. It's the total lack of any evidence to support them.



True, or can be. There are pessimists out there as well.



It is if they believe just because they like the belief. Then it's drivel.

So use your interlect and examine which beliefs are justified by evidence if you want to be honest with yourself.

I hope you will read this. I hope you will think about it. I hope you will get the idea that us Atheists do understand what you are and what you are thinking, and why.

I hope you develope the confidence to live without the fairy as I think you will find it better.
True. She is driven by emotion.
 

Dragonfly

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I was just thinking about wishful thinking, and wanted to post something short about it. Because it inevitably comes up in debates between spiritual believers and atheists.

I don't want to say a lot about it, just sort of get it out of the way.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And I hope it will. So my thinking about the sunrise is influenced by wishful thinking. Does that mean my belief is naive or stupid or wrong?

I believe I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow. And I hope I won't. Similarly, does that mean my belief that I won't get hit by a bus is mere wishful thinking?

I wonder if you atheists are getting the point. It is certainly possible to believe something that we hope is true, without our belief being governed by wishful thinking.

I believe the universe is intelligent, and conscious. I believe it for scientific and logical reason which I have worked on all my life. My beliefs regarding this are intellectual, not emotional. However, I like believing what I believe.

Does the fact that I like my beliefs make them invalid, or suspicious?

Wishful thinking can't be ignored and it has a part in all our thinking. However, it is not logical to say a person's beliefs are entirely nonsense if the person likes their beliefs.

I also have a lot of beliefs that I don't like having. So obviously our beliefs are not controlled by wishful thinking, although there can be some influence.

Feel free to believe anything you want.

A few questions I have for you are, do you:

1) condemn or look down on others for having a different belief
2) wish to form laws that others would have to follow based on your beliefs
3) feel a need to "convert" others to believe what you believe, even if they obviously have no desire to be converted
4) prevent other who have a similar belief from transitioning/leaving to some other form of belief or ideology
 

Good4Nothin

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Personally I would say that I expect the sun to rise tomorrow as the evidence strongly implies that it will.



Nope. The wanting it to happen does not matter.



Sort of. It would be better to say that you don't expect to be hit by a bus. More accurate.



Yes.



That's the bit that is purely wishful thinking without supporting evidence. That you can't explain why you think this with evidence is the problem.



100% wrong. You are purely being emotional about that.



OK.



No. It's the total lack of any evidence to support them.



True, or can be. There are pessimists out there as well.



It is if they believe just because they like the belief. Then it's drivel.


So use your interlect and examine which beliefs are justified by evidence if you want to be honest with yourself.

I hope you will read this. I hope you will think about it. I hope you will get the idea that us Atheists do understand what you are and what you are thinking, and why.

I hope you develope the confidence to live without the fairy as I think you will find it better.

So you're an atheist because it makes you happy. Nothing to do with reason.
 

Good4Nothin

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Standing on my own feet with self confidence makes me happy. Good, well supported, reasoning is part of that.

Not having anything above you makes you happy. Not being connected to anything makes you happy. A certain percentage of our species is like that. Good that you found your true faith.
 

Tim the plumber

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Not having anything above you makes you happy. Not being connected to anything makes you happy. A certain percentage of our species is like that. Good that you found your true faith.

I am connected to the real world. What connection do you think you have?

I think you would be more contented and accepting of the way life is, and also more ready to chane to make your life as you wanted it if you were content with your own ability to think things through. Although, doubt is never as cosy as certainty. Even when we are certain and wrong.
 

zyzygy

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Not having anything above you makes you happy. Not being connected to anything makes you happy. A certain percentage of our species is like that. Good that you found your true faith.

Don't be so silly. You are making a fool of yourself.
 

Idiometer

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I was just thinking about wishful thinking, and wanted to post something short about it. Because it inevitably comes up in debates between spiritual believers and atheists.

I don't want to say a lot about it, just sort of get it out of the way.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And I hope it will. So my thinking about the sunrise is influenced by wishful thinking. Does that mean my belief is naive or stupid or wrong?

I believe I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow. And I hope I won't. Similarly, does that mean my belief that I won't get hit by a bus is mere wishful thinking?

I wonder if you atheists are getting the point. It is certainly possible to believe something that we hope is true, without our belief being governed by wishful thinking.

I believe the universe is intelligent, and conscious. I believe it for scientific and logical reason which I have worked on all my life. My beliefs regarding this are intellectual, not emotional. However, I like believing what I believe.

Does the fact that I like my beliefs make them invalid, or suspicious?

Wishful thinking can't be ignored and it has a part in all our thinking. However, it is not logical to say a person's beliefs are entirely nonsense if the person likes their beliefs.

I also have a lot of beliefs that I don't like having. So obviously our beliefs are not controlled by wishful thinking, although there can be some influence.

Wishful thinking? On the contrary.

I prefer knowledge to belief. I don't believe the sun will rise in the morning, I simply have overwhelming, reasoned confidence that it will based on my knowledge of how the solar system we live in functions, and the historical fact that this functioning has not varied for billions of years.

I do not believe that I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow, I am confident that I won't based on my own care in how and where I walk.

Your beliefs are not necessarily nonsense, just unprovable. That's true of all beliefs. And it's good to like your beliefs. For myself, I like my knowledge, and even more I like the fact that the human knowledge base is an ever-expanding thing. I get the attraction of religion and know that as an atheist, I'm definitely in the minority. Religion provides all of the answers about who we are and why we're here. I prefer the questions, and for every question science answers, more questions arise. That makes me happy and keeps me interested, every day that the sun rises.
 

Angel

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Wishful thinking? On the contrary.

I prefer knowledge to belief. I don't believe the sun will rise in the morning, I simply have overwhelming, reasoned confidence that it will based on my knowledge of how the solar system we live in functions, and the historical fact that this functioning has not varied for billions of years.

I do not believe that I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow, I am confident that I won't based on my own care in how and where I walk.

Your beliefs are not necessarily nonsense, just unprovable. That's true of all beliefs. And it's good to like your beliefs. For myself, I like my knowledge, and even more I like the fact that the human knowledge base is an ever-expanding thing. I get the attraction of religion and know that as an atheist, I'm definitely in the minority. Religion provides all of the answers about who we are and why we're here. I prefer the questions, and for every question science answers, more questions arise. That makes me happy and keeps me interested, every day that the sun rises.
Your "overwhelming, reasoned confidence" is belief.
 

Idiometer

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Your "overwhelming, reasoned confidence" is belief.

I disagree. I'm aware that some catastrophic celestial event could take place today and perhaps the sun WON'T rise in the morning, but the odds are in its favor. I'm aware that my concentration could lapse while out for a walk tomorrow and I COULD get hit by a bus, but again, the odds are in my favor. That isn't belief, it is confidence based on knowledge.
 

Angel

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I disagree. I'm aware that some catastrophic celestial event could take place today and perhaps the sun WON'T rise in the morning, but the odds are in its favor. I'm aware that my concentration could lapse while out for a walk tomorrow and I COULD get hit by a bus, but again, the odds are in my favor. That isn't belief, it is confidence based on knowledge.
Belief is just that, "confidence in what we 'know.'" Knowledge is belief.
 

Idiometer

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Belief is just that, "confidence in what we 'know.'" Knowledge is belief.

No, it isn't. Knowledge is based on facts that have been proven via scientific methods of observation and testing. Gravity exists whether or not you believe in it. The earth is round whether or not you believe it is. It orbits the sun whether or not you believe it does.

"The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -- Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson
 
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