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Wise to be allied with Israel ?

robin

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I absolutely do not condone terror from either side whether meeted out by the Jews against the Muslims/Palestinians or vica versa, but after reading this & following the links, one has to ask Isn't the USA asking for trouble by allying with Israel ?.....

As the world's attention is turned toward the Israeli withdrawal of illegal Jewish settlements on occupied Palestinian land in the Gaza Strip, a harsh, deadly and brutal military occupation continues throughout Palestine. While the future of the border crossings of the Gaza Strip, to Egypt and to other regions of occupied Palestine remains unclear , as Israel has refused to negotiate on these key issues, which will define if Gaza will remain a large, social and economically isolated prison.

Also in the context of withdrawal from Gaza, Israeli settlers have severally escalated their attacks against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. This past week three Palestinians were killed by an Israeli settler in the West Bank, who used weaponry belonging to the Israeli military. Throughout the West Bank, Israeli military occupation continues, settlement expansion continues and the construction of the internationally condemned Apartheid Wall is ongoing. The Palestinian struggle against occupation and for liberation also continues on a daily basis. Throughout the summer of 2005 demonstrations and direct actions against military occupation and the Apartheid Wall have taken place on a daily basis , as Palestinians struggle for basic survival.

All Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and West Bank , like the ongoing construction of the Apartheid Wall is internationally recognized as illegal, confirmed by a 2004 ruling from the International Court of Justice , which was then adopted by a majority vote in the United Nations General Assembly . While throughout the world Palestinian refugees continue to demand their right of return to occupied Palestine, from which they were displaced through the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. In Lebanon hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugee continue to live in extreme poverty in refugee camps scattered throughout the country.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=8529
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4014.shtml
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/updates/gaza_first.htm
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4107.shtml
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/maps/west_bank_settlements_map.htm
http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/637.shtml
 
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Parmenion

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I believe its unwise for any Nation to be allied to Israel as it is setting up a course for self-destruction and when it goes down, it will take all of its allies with it.

Another country commiting the acts that Israel does would have massive trade embargos slapped on it and economic aid to the country would or should cease.

Being allied to Israel is simply asking to be dragged into trouble and wars which are no concern of yours.

And don't get me wrong, I am delighted for the Jews having a state again where they can call home. But the racism with which Israelis treat non-Jews in Israel is terrifying from my own personal experience.
 

MiamiFlorida

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robin said:
I absolutely do not condone terror from either side whether meeted out by the Jews against the Muslims/Palestinians or vica versa, but after reading this & following the links, one has to ask Isn't the USA asking for trouble by allying with Israel ?.....

As the world's attention is turned toward the Israeli withdrawal of illegal Jewish settlements on occupied Palestinian land in the Gaza Strip, a harsh, deadly and brutal military occupation continues throughout Palestine. While the future of the border crossings of the Gaza Strip, to Egypt and to other regions of occupied Palestine remains unclear , as Israel has refused to negotiate on these key issues, which will define if Gaza will remain a large, social and economically isolated prison.

Also in the context of withdrawal from Gaza, Israeli settlers have severally escalated their attacks against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. This past week three Palestinians were killed by an Israeli settler in the West Bank, who used weaponry belonging to the Israeli military. Throughout the West Bank, Israeli military occupation continues, settlement expansion continues and the construction of the internationally condemned Apartheid Wall is ongoing. The Palestinian struggle against occupation and for liberation also continues on a daily basis. Throughout the summer of 2005 demonstrations and direct actions against military occupation and the Apartheid Wall have taken place on a daily basis , as Palestinians struggle for basic survival.

All Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and West Bank , like the ongoing construction of the Apartheid Wall is internationally recognized as illegal, confirmed by a 2004 ruling from the International Court of Justice , which was then adopted by a majority vote in the United Nations General Assembly . While throughout the world Palestinian refugees continue to demand their right of return to occupied Palestine, from which they were displaced through the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. In Lebanon hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugee continue to live in extreme poverty in refugee camps scattered throughout the country.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=8529
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4014.shtml
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/updates/gaza_first.htm
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4107.shtml
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/maps/west_bank_settlements_map.htm
http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/637.shtml
Yes.

-It is wise to be allied with the only country in the Middle East where arab women have the same rights as men.

-It is logical for democratic developed nations to form alliances with each other, especially against fundamentalism.

-It is wise to spend some time examining all the half-truths, misinformation and lies printed about Israel.

-It is wise not to give in to people who seek chage through terror.
 

vergiss

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What, so you think it's better to do what's wrong because of fear of retribution from extremist morons who'll hate us anyway?
 

Simon W. Moon

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If only Israel would stop spying on us and stop trying to sell the advanced technology we've sold to them to China...
 

Simon W. Moon

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Quote:
What the Heck Is a Neocon?
Max Boot
...support for Israel -- a key tenet of neoconservatism...

The National Security Strategy that he released in September -- which calls for "encouraging free and open societies on every continent" -- sounds as if it could have come straight from the pages of Commentary magazine, the neocon bible. [the monthly of the American Jewish Committee]

One group of conservatives believes that we should use armed force only to defend our vital national interests... The idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East they denounce as a mad, hubristic dream likely to backfire with tragic consequences. This view...[called] "realism," is championed by foreign-policy mandarins like Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft and James Baker III.

...[Neocons] think..."realism" presents far too crabbed a view of American power and responsibility. ...[suggesting] we need to promote our values...[because] liberal democracies rarely fight one another, sponsor terrorism, or use weapons of mass destruction. If we are to avoid another 9/11, they argue, we need to liberalize the Middle East...
...[Neocons] embrace Woodrow Wilson's championing of American ideals but reject his reliance on international organizations and treaties to accomplish our objectives.​
Here's an interesting article that covers quite a bit of ground on this issue. Granted, it doesn't cover the ground thoroughly, but it is a nice survey.

Quote:
Israel's Role: The 'Elephant' They're Talking About
FEBRUARY 28, 2003
By AMI EDEN
FORWARD STAFF

...the Israeli-Jewish elephant has been on...respected media outlets... Washington Post, The New York Times, the American Prospect, the Washington Times, the Economist, the New York Review of Books, CNN and MSNBC. ...the proverbial pachyderm...in the middle of "Meet the Press,"...

Tim Russert read from...the Washington Times, Arnaud de Borchgrave...that the "strategic objective"...was to secure Israel's borders by launching a crusade to democratize the Arab world.
[Then asked Richard Perle:]
"Can you assure American viewers across our country that we're in this situation against Saddam Hussein and his removal for American security interests?" Russert asked.

"And what would be the link in terms of Israel?"

...a startling question, especially when directed at Perle... If Russert is asking...on national television, then...The question...is now a legitimate query to be floated in polite company.

...Washington Post...[an] attempt to demonstrate an unprecedented political partnership between Sharon and Bush...Robert Kaiser..."Bush and Sharon Nearly Identical On Mideast Policy." ...[including] a paragraph outlining a supposed rightward shift among American Jewish organizations.

"Over the past dozen years or more, supporters of Sharon's Likud Party have moved into leadership roles in most of the American Jewish organizations that provide financial and political support for Israel" [Kaiser]

...January 25... the Economist published a lead editorial urging Bush to ignore "so-called friends of Israel who will accuse Mr. Bush of 'appeasement' the moment he pushes hard for territorial compromise." [available by subscription only]

Several Jewish commentators have...[warned] that subtle and not-so-subtle antisemitic undertones permeate the new wave of anti-war criticism. ...critics have charged these writers with unfairly playing the antisemitic card [to silence] opposition...

[Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman:]
...accept as legitimate questions concerning the pro-Israel leanings of administration officials...
...it is...legitimate to question where the Sharon government or American Jewish groups stand on the war, the...line is... [portraying] these entities as a...Jewish conspiracy...[controlling]American foreign policy.
...American Jews are sometimes too quick to assume that antisemitism is at play...
"It is an old canard that Jews control America and American foreign policy. During both world wars, antisemites said that Jews manipulated America into war. So when you begin to hear it again, there is good reason for us to be aware of it and sensitive to it."​
Choice excerpts from the hard to find MtP transcript:
'Meet the Press' -- February 23, 2003

Quote:
TR: Richard Perle, there's been discussion about the role of Israel and the formulation of American foreign policy regarding Iraq. Let me show you an article from The Washington Times, written by [Arnaud de Borchgrave]:
Quote:

"The strategic objective is the antithesis of Middle Eastern stability. The de-stabilization of 'despotic regimes' comes next.

<snip>

"The roots of the overall strategy can be traced to a paper published in 1996 by the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, an Israeli think tank. The document was titled 'A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm'.

"Israel...would 'shape its strategic environment', beginning with the removal of Saddam Hussein.

"Prominent American opinion-makers who are now senior members of the Bush administration participated in the discussions and the drafting that led to this 1996 blueprint."​
Can you assure American viewers across our country that we're in this situation against Saddam Hussein and his removal for American security interests? And what would be the link in terms of Israel?

RP: Well, first of all, the answer is absolutely yes. Those of us who believe that we should take this action if Saddam doesn't disarm- and I doubt that he's going to - believe it's in the best interests of the United States. I don't see what would be wrong with surrounding Israel with democracies; indeed, if the whole world were democratic, we'd live in a much safer international security system because democracies do not wage aggressive wars.
Choice excerpts from the Arnaud de Borchgrave article:

Quote:

A Bush-Sharon Doctrine?
Arnaud de Borchgrave
Monday, Feb. 17, 2003

...strategic objectives of the U.S. and Israel...have...merged into a...Bush-Sharon Doctrine.

...Washington's "Likudniks" — Ariel Sharon's powerful backers in the Bush administration — have been in charge of U.S. policy in the Middle East since President Bush was sworn into office.

In alliance with Evangelical Christians, these policy-makers include some of the most powerful players in the Bush administration.

Mr. Sharon...[convinced] Mr. Bush that the war on Palestinian terrorism was identical to the global war on terror. Next came a campaign to convince U.S. public opinion that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were allies...

...senior members* of the Bush administration participated in the discussions and the drafting that led to this 1996 blueprint.
Prime Minister Sharon has flown to Washington...more frequently than any other head of state or government [in those two years].

*[ Richard Perle,Study Group Leader, Douglas Feith, David Wurmser, Meyrav Wurmser ]​
 

vergiss

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If only Elvis Presley didn't shoot JFK...
 

Simon W. Moon

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Choice excerpts from the WaPo's Bob Kaiser article:
Quote:

Bush and Sharon Nearly Identical On Mideast Policy
By Robert G. Kaiser
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 9, 2003; Page A01

"This is the best administration for Israel since Harry Truman [who first recognized an independent Israel]," said Thomas Neumann, executive director of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs [JINSA], a think tank that promotes strategic cooperation with Israel as vital to U.S. security interests.

"Every president since at least Nixon has seen the Arab-Israeli conflict as the central strategic issue in the Middle East," "But this administration sees Iraq as the central challenge, and . . . has disengaged from any serious effort to confront the Arab-Israeli problem." [Sandy Berger]

The turning point...[was] when Bush embraced Sharon's view...[that] Yasser Arafat's removal as leader of the Palestinian Authority [was] a condition of future diplomacy. That was "a clear shift in policy," Kenneth R. Weinstein...of the Hudson Institute, a conservative supporter of Israel and Likud.

...Bush appointed..[a] critic of the traditional peace process, Elliott Abrams, director of Mideast affairs for the National Security Council.

"The Likudniks are really in charge now," said a senior government official... Neumann agreed that Abrams's appointment was symbolically important, not least because Abrams's views were shared by...Condoleezza Rice, ...Cheney and...Rumsfeld. "It's a strong lineup," he said.

Abrams is a former assistant secretary of state...[under] Reagan...convicted on two counts of lying to Congress in the Iran-contra scandal...

...Meyrav Wurmser of the Hudson Institute...: "Elliott's appointment is a signal that the hard-liners in the administration are playing a more central role in shaping policy."

...David Wurmser, [is] ...a special assistant to Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton and Douglas J. Feith,...undersecretary of defense for policy...​
JINSA members have included such NeoCon notables as, The Hon. Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Hon. R. James Woolsey, Jr., Dr. Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, and Hon. John Bolton.

Richard N. Perle, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser are also members of the Hudson Institute's Board of Trustees.

And, of course, the esteemed AEI and PNAC share members with a number of the aforementioned folks. But, that goes almost w/o saying.
 

Simon W. Moon

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vergiss said:
If only Elvis Presley didn't shoot JFK...
Is this some hobbled attempt to ask for citations re Israel spying on the US and attempting to sell advanced US technology to China?
 
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America is not allied with Isreal. Alliance would indicate mutual suport and assitance. Isreal would never assist the us in anything.

Americas founding fathers..all but forgotten and commonly shunned by Americans these days...warned of getting involved abroad. There warning eventualy were ignored and America has been at war ever sioce. Its very dangerous and of no benefit to anybody in America accept greedy corrupt poltiticans, eho's theivery and deciet is masked by the lack of education on Isreali hisotry and the fanatical rantings of religious zealots and racists hell bent on supporting this country based on there insane ideas that it will help them quell there fear of the Arabs or get them into heaven by supporting murder in the name of "God". Its very unwise to be associated with Isreal.
 

vergiss

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nefarious_plot said:
America is not allied with Isreal. Alliance would indicate mutual suport and assitance. Isreal would never assist the us in anything.

Americas founding fathers..all but forgotten and commonly shunned by Americans these days...warned of getting involved abroad. There warning eventualy were ignored and America has been at war ever sioce. Its very dangerous and of no benefit to anybody in America accept greedy corrupt poltiticans, eho's theivery and deciet is masked by the lack of education on Isreali hisotry and the fanatical rantings of religious zealots and racists hell bent on supporting this country based on there insane ideas that it will help them quell there fear of the Arabs or get them into heaven by supporting murder in the name of "God". Its very unwise to be associated with Isreal.
"Israel", dear. I doubt you know the slightest thing about it, seeing as you keep spelling it incorrectly.
 

MiamiFlorida

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nefarious_plot said:
America is not allied with Isreal. Alliance would indicate mutual suport and assitance. Isreal would never assist the us in anything.

Americas founding fathers..all but forgotten and commonly shunned by Americans these days...warned of getting involved abroad. There warning eventualy were ignored and America has been at war ever sioce. Its very dangerous and of no benefit to anybody in America accept greedy corrupt poltiticans, eho's theivery and deciet is masked by the lack of education on Isreali hisotry and the fanatical rantings of religious zealots and racists hell bent on supporting this country based on there insane ideas that it will help them quell there fear of the Arabs or get them into heaven by supporting murder in the name of "God". Its very unwise to be associated with Isreal.
If we had followed the advice of the Founding Fathers about not getting involved abroad, today we would be part of the Third Reich or the Soviet Union. Today's global village is very different from what the world was a couple of hundred years ago.
 

robin

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"Israel will always be worth it.
Stop the unjust Arab occupation of Israeli land!"
Vergiss
What are you doing on American Indian land ?
 

Arch Enemy

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robin said:
"Israel will always be worth it.
Stop the unjust Arab occupation of Israeli land!"
Vergiss
What are you doing on American Indian land ?
You make a point! It's sad that America has been the terrorists since their very beginnings. Poor Native Americans, damn the white beasts from the western shores.
 

SKILMATIC

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Re:

Wise to be allied with Israel ?
Anyone who is will prevail. The Bible says in revelations that all man will try to kill and destroy all israelis and israel. I dont think we will be friends with israel when that happens for the Bible doesnt describe a nation like us befreinding them. However, I think it is wise to say that as long as the jews have been prosecuted against and the plots of exterminiation have occured they are still here. I think this is validation of Gods chosen people.

I sure hope we will be there to aid them. However, when the world comes to that I dont think I will be here to see it.
 
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The bible Is not a land deed. Not to mention supporting murder and war in name of God is blasphomey.

Isrealis are not Hebrews they are Khazars. The kingdom of Isreal in the Bible is not refering to a piece of dirt. Its refering to the followers of faith... a metophor for the supposed clouds filled with angels you will goto for following the fictious ghost called God.

The hysteric notion of God has broght more murder and hatred to this world then any other thought process or fued in human history.

God is man's pathetic attempt to justify his barbarism and hatred to eachother.

"We can kill you cause the fictuous dude in the sky said I could." Insane childish logic.
 

vergiss

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robin said:
"Israel will always be worth it.
Stop the unjust Arab occupation of Israeli land!"
Vergiss
What are you doing on American Indian land ?
...erm, I'm not.

:lol:
 

cnredd

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Arch Enemy said:
You make a point! It's sad that America has been the terrorists since their very beginnings. Poor Native Americans, damn the white beasts from the western shores.
uhhhhhhh....sarcasm?
 
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Ya, sounds like a fairly intelligent and well thought out plan to abandon our only true ally in the whole freaking region! Good call! (strong sarcastic emphasis added) Got any more brain busters? Hay here's a few abandon Israel, ally ourselves with our enemies by giving countries like N. Korea nuclear weapons rather than trying to keep them from obtaining them (damn Clinton already did that), pull out of Iraq before they even get their constitution done so as to assure a failure there, and while we're at it why don't we just go right ahead and cut out the middle man and all of the unnecessary global positioning and just nuke the world!
 

GarzaUK

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I think Israel is the source of all the problems in the Middle East. Israel in an imperial occupier since they invaded the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai (they had to give Sinai back, but the settlers weren't too happy).

The reason why the terrorists hate America so much is that bias foreign policy to Israel. When Israel does something against international law, the US turns a blind eye and instead gives them nuclear technology. That's really why 9/11 happened.

I'm not stating that Palenstinian side are innocent of crimes, but a Palastine state (with the West Bank and Gaza Strip) would serve to decrease Islamic terrorism. Decrease the hatred, decrease the support for terrorist groups, you decrease terrorism. That is what is happening in Northern Ireland.
 

vergiss

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What are you on and where can I get some?
 

cnredd

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GarzaUK said:
I think Israel is the source of all the problems in the Middle East. Israel in an imperial occupier since they invaded the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai (they had to give Sinai back, but the settlers weren't too happy).

The reason why the terrorists hate America so much is that bias foreign policy to Israel. When Israel does something against international law, the US turns a blind eye and instead gives them nuclear technology. That's really why 9/11 happened.

I'm not stating that Palenstinian side are innocent of crimes, but a Palastine state (with the West Bank and Gaza Strip) would serve to decrease Islamic terrorism. Decrease the hatred, decrease the support for terrorist groups, you decrease terrorism. That is what is happening in Northern Ireland.
Hate to tell ya Garz....They don't WANT a state next to, around, or connected to Israel...They want to push Israelis so far west that they all fall into the Meditaranian and die...anything less is unacceptable...

That is there ONLY goal...To see Isreal demolished...not decreased in military...not decreased in land mass....DESTROYED...

All Arab lands surrounding Israel attacked the second they were declared a soveriegn nation...this was long before the US ever gave them a penny. The fact that the US helps is used as a crutch for those against Israel...They hate us because, through our aid, we prevent them from killing over 10 million people...

What a world we live in, eh? "Let's just get rid of a whole race and everything will be fine."
 
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"What a world we live in, eh? "Let's just get rid of a whole race and everything will be fine."

Thats pretty much what most americans and isreallis say about arabs.

The into the sea thing is propaganda nonesence.


Nobody wants Isrealis there its not there land, they come from other paces. They should take a hint.

America should have people in goverment who support their instrests, not foreign nations.
 
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