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Wind power failing

Chainsawmassacre

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There really isn’t anything going right with wind power. It’s costly, people don’t want it in their views, China is taking it over and it can’t compete with fossil fuels once massive subsidies are pulled.


Wind power heavyweights Vestas Wind Systems A/S, General Electric Co. and Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy SAare reeling from high raw material and logistics costs, changes in key clean-power subsidies, years of pressure on turbine prices and an expensive arms race to build ever-bigger machines.

“What I’m seeing is a colossal market failure,” said Ben Backwell, chief executive officer of trade group Global Wind Energy Council, noting a mismatch between government targets for new wind power and what’s happening on the ground. “The risk is we’re not on track for net zero [emissions] -- and the other risk is the supply chain contracts, instead of expanding.”


 
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Gateman_Wen

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There really isn’t anything going right with wind power. It’s costly, people don’t want it in their views, China is taking it over and it can’t compete with fossil fuels once massive subsidies are pulled.


Wind power heavyweights Vestas Wind Systems A/S, General Electric Co. and Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy SAare reeling from high raw material and logistics costs, changes in key clean-power subsidies, years of pressure on turbine prices and an expensive arms race to build ever-bigger machines.

“What I’m seeing is a colossal market failure,” said Ben Backwell, chief executive officer of trade group Global Wind Energy Council, noting a mismatch between government targets for new wind power and what’s happening on the ground. “The risk is we’re not on track for net zero [emissions] -- and the other risk is the supply chain contracts, instead of expanding.”


You should come to southern Kansas/norther Oklahoma. Wind turbines everywhere and more every day. Nothing is failing.

 

Rexedgar

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What does the article say, not surrendering any information to read it?
 

Ug make hammer

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I'd prefer to tax carbon emissions than subsidize alternatives. Taxation is less distortionary. However subsidies are better than nothing.
 

Chainsawmassacre

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You should come to southern Kansas/norther Oklahoma. Wind turbines everywhere and more every day. Nothing is failing.

They are either operating at a loss or jacking up their prices for electricity they initially claimed would be so cheap.
 
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Gateman_Wen

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They are either operating at a loss or jacking up their prices for electricity they initially claimed would be so cheap.
My bill isn't out of control, and i'm pretty sure Evergy isn't operating at a loss.
 

longview

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Wind may or may not be economically viable, we will only know when the subsidies are gone.
The question should be can wind based electricity compete on a level playing field with a natural gas plant.
We also have to consider that on demand electricity has a greater value than sometimes there electricity.
Let's say for example that a natural gas plant can sell electricity for a profit at $25 per Mwh,
and that electricity is available on demand 24/7, While the wind turbine can sell electricity when the wind is blowing,
for $25 per Mwh, but cannot guarantee the electricity will be on demand. To get to 100% coverage, they must purchase
electricity from the gas plant at $25/Mwh. This assumes the gas power plant will sell them electricity at the wholesale rate,
but the reality is if the wind is not blowing the wholesale rate will increase.
 

Ug make hammer

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Wind may or may not be economically viable, we will only know when the subsidies are gone.
The question should be can wind based electricity compete on a level playing field with a natural gas plant.

It shouldn't have to. Natural gas plants create carbon pollution, that's an externality which should be paid for.

We also have to consider that on demand electricity has a greater value than sometimes there electricity.

Yes. But a carbon tax would also favor nuclear, which is on demand.

Let's say for example that a natural gas plant can sell electricity for a profit at $25 per Mwh,
and that electricity is available on demand 24/7, While the wind turbine can sell electricity when the wind is blowing,
for $25 per Mwh, but cannot guarantee the electricity will be on demand. To get to 100% coverage, they must purchase
electricity from the gas plant at $25/Mwh. This assumes the gas power plant will sell them electricity at the wholesale rate,
but the reality is if the wind is not blowing the wholesale rate will increase.

There is flexibility in demand though. If the spot price is passed through to consumers, they can charge cars or stationary batteries, or heat water with the cheapest power.
 

longview

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It shouldn't have to. Natural gas plants create carbon pollution, that's an externality which should be paid for.



Yes. But a carbon tax would also favor nuclear, which is on demand.



There is flexibility in demand though. If the spot price is passed through to consumers, they can charge cars or stationary batteries, or heat water with the cheapest power.
I see terms like externality, and think, where does that show up on the balance sheet?
For the time being a combined cycle natural gas plant is what is waiting to cover the down time of the wind turbines.
They have to have enough capacity to meet the demand during times when the wind does not blow.
The real problem I have with a carbon tax, is that it is only local, and would only burden the local (Country) economy.

Most household budgets cannot take paying the spot price for electricity, that is what generated $16,000 monthly electric bills in Feb 2021, for the people on spot pricing. The carrier is better suited to protect against short term spikes.
 

PoS

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Its been obvious from the beginning that wind power is unreliable and unsustainable. Any engineer worth their salt will tell you that.
 

VanceMack

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So far all this has really done is exposed the lunacy of the leftists.

It wasnt too long ago that the left would literally lose their ****ing minds over logging or desert land development for fear of displacing the spotted owl or a lizard. Today....they encourage strip forestry to clear the way for wind mill farms. They rush to plant windmills in the desert...wildlife and animals be damned. Windmills killing eagles and entire flocks of birds? **** em of they are too stupid to avoid the blades.

As for the windmills themselves? The fact that there has to be a massive expenditure of fossil fuels to mine the resources needed to procure materials and more to fabricate and build the windmills...meh...so what...at the end state there will be a windmill...that will probably never produce what it cost to build and will likely break and become unusable before its projected lifecycle (gear box failure is a very common failure). And as for the waste materiel from the discarded mindmills...me...again...**** it...expend even MORE fossil fuels, dig up even MORE ground and stick the now defunct blades in the ground somewhere out of sight, out of mind. And this of course says nothing of the 10s of thousands of mindmill farms already abandoned.

And to what end? With all of this, the energy produced is still around 8%.

I think windmills on small properties makes sense as a component of the energy solution...and on a grand scale where it makes sense, by all means. But people should stop pretending this is an environmentally friendly means of energy production.
 

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obvious from the beginning that wind power is unreliable and unsustainable.
Wow... The wind will still blow long after all forms of depletable energy have vanished.
 

PoS

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Wow... The wind will still blow long after all forms of depletable energy have vanished.
What a profoundly stupid response. Its not about whether the wind blows, its about whether you can draw power from it for human consumption.
 

Crakhobarbie

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What a profoundly stupid response. Its not about whether the wind blows, its about whether you can draw power from it for human consumption.
Yes. Your comment was moronic. Here, let me school you:

Sustainable energy is derived from resources that can maintain current operations without jeopardizing the energy needs or climate of future generations. The most popular sources of sustainable energy, including wind, solar and hydropower, are also renewable.
 

longview

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Wow... The wind will still blow long after all forms of depletable energy have vanished.
True, but without energy storage the wind's ability to provide on demand energy will be just as poor as it is now.
Yes. Your comment was moronic. Here, let me school you:

Sustainable energy is derived from resources that can maintain current operations without jeopardizing the energy needs or climate of future generations. The most popular sources of sustainable energy, including wind, solar and hydropower, are also renewable.
Except by your own definition Wind and Solar without energy storage do not meet that requirement.
They cannot maintain current operations, they can provide electricity when the sun shines or the wind blows,
but that cannot satisfy our current on demand operations.
 
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PoS

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Yes. Your comment was moronic. Here, let me school you:

Sustainable energy is derived from resources that can maintain current operations without jeopardizing the energy needs or climate of future generations. The most popular sources of sustainable energy, including wind, solar and hydropower, are also renewable.
Doubling down on the ignorance and idiocy since its impossible for wind to generate the power needs of any modern day city on a daily basis. Good job!
 

Crakhobarbie

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Doubling down on the ignorance and idiocy since its impossible for wind to generate the power needs of any modern day city on a daily basis. Good job!
It's renewable energy and a partial solution.
 

Crakhobarbie

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Doubling down on the ignorance and idiocy since its impossible for wind to generate the power needs of any modern day city on a daily basis. Good job!
See post #18
 

Crakhobarbie

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True, but without energy storage the wind's ability to provide on demand energy will be just as poor as it is now.

Except by your own definition Wind and Solar without energy storage do not meet that requirement.
They cannot maintain current operations, they can provide electricity when the sun shines or the wind blows,
but that cannot satisfy our current on demand operations.
I never said wind could supply all our energy needs. But it is a non-polluting renewable source.
 

longview

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I never said wind could supply all our energy needs. But it is a non-polluting renewable source.
Moving the goalposts,
Your statement "Sustainable energy is derived from resources that can maintain current operations"
Wind, without energy storage, cannot maintain current operations, i.e. our energy needs.
It is somewhat non polluting, but is considered a source of noise pollution.
I think wind may have a place in our energy future, if they can work out the current engineering problems.
 

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Wind may or may not be economically viable, we will only know when the subsidies are gone.
The question should be can wind based electricity compete on a level playing field with a natural gas plant.
We also have to consider that on demand electricity has a greater value than sometimes there electricity.
Let's say for example that a natural gas plant can sell electricity for a profit at $25 per Mwh,
and that electricity is available on demand 24/7, While the wind turbine can sell electricity when the wind is blowing,
for $25 per Mwh, but cannot guarantee the electricity will be on demand. To get to 100% coverage, they must purchase
electricity from the gas plant at $25/Mwh. This assumes the gas power plant will sell them electricity at the wholesale rate,
but the reality is if the wind is not blowing the wholesale rate will increase.
So we don't know if fossil fuel is economically viable either, they've been receiving subsidies for almost 100 years.
 

longview

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So we don't know if fossil fuel is economically viable either, they've been receiving subsidies for almost 100 years.
Do we really need to go over this again?
Subsidies are direct cash payments.
Businesses deducting the expenses of doing business from their gross profits, is not a subsidy!
Granted, business expenses are different in different industries, but they are still deductions.
 

mrjurrs

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Do we really need to go over this again?
Subsidies are direct cash payments.
Businesses deducting the expenses of doing business from their gross profits, is not a subsidy!
Granted, business expenses are different in different industries, but they are still deductions.
Apparently we need to. What is it about gas and oil subsidies that you refuse to understand? My bold added.

And by the way, the US tax code has a number of deductions for fossil fuel that other businesses don't have (in addition to the subsidies they continue to receive from American taxpayers).
"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil.
 

longview

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Apparently we need to. What is it about gas and oil subsidies that you refuse to understand? My bold added.

And by the way, the US tax code has a number of deductions for fossil fuel that other businesses don't have (in addition to the subsidies they continue to receive from American taxpayers).
"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil.
I am sorry that you did not read your source!

Direct Subsidies​


Intangible Drilling Costs Deduction (26 U.S. Code § 263. Active). This provision allows companies to deduct a majority of the costs incurred from drilling new wells domestically.
So what they are calling Direct Subsidies, are still tax deductions, write offs against gross profits.
Oh yea, and you neglected to include the title of the article.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs​

They are tax breaks, not subsidies!
 
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