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Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss[W:508:549]

Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

And anyone who has ever gone into debt to start a business, get a house, a car... So essentially everybody, and remember, for one person to be without debt, another person is in debt. It's simply the nature of a world where the majority of money originates from commercial banks.

Loans and debt aren't always the same. Taking out a loan to create more jobs and money is great. Taking out loans so that you can run the economy into a 16 trillion dollar debt is bad business.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

I want to make that percent as small as possible to maintain a strong currency so that the value of a buck is enough to pay the bills for even the most min wage worker.

The currency is already strong. Deflation simply leads to less spending and a downward spiral.
People would be able to pay the bills if we weren't so afraid of government deficits aimed at the poor/middle class to help with food/education/utilities..
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Debt has been working well for countries for the past several hundred years whether you like it or not. Also we need inflation, it is part of the economic engine of a country because otherwise people have no reason to spend or invest their money.

Is that why before America hit debt we didn't invade other nations, but after we did o.o? Those that believe in debt believe in slavery. One should always do best to balance the books. Not pass the buck to the next gen.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Loans and debt aren't always the same. Taking out a loan to create more jobs and money is great. Taking out loans so that you can run the economy into a 16 trillion dollar debt is bad business.

But the government debt simply represents cumulative annual deficits/government bonds, which are financial assets for the domestic private sector. And for a currency issuer with plenty of resources, there's not a problem. The real issue is excessive private sector debt.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

The currency is already strong. Deflation simply leads to less spending and a downward spiral.
People would be able to pay the bills if we weren't so afraid of government deficits aimed at the poor/middle class to help with food/education/utilities..

Is that why our credit raiting dropped?
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Is that why our credit raiting dropped?

You mean the rating given to us by the people that gave high ratings to toxic garbage? Anyways, the rating was dropped because of politicians creating nonsense over the debt ceiling, not because we can't pay. We can always pay.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

You mean the rating given to us by the people that gave high ratings to toxic garbage? Anyways, the rating was dropped because of politicians creating nonsense over the debt ceiling, not because we can't pay. We can always pay.

I humbly disagree. And while I provide historic examples in my side of this debate, as usual, the liberal simply says, "no, you're wrong." "You're funny because you don't get it". Insults to intelligence but no point. You guys need to get laid.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

I humbly disagree. And while I provide historic examples in my side of this debate, as usual, the liberal simply says, "no, you're wrong." "You're funny because you don't get it". Insults to intelligence but no point. You guys need to get laid.
Yeah, examples that do nothing. Clintons boom was driven by a massive increase in private sector debt.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Yeah, examples that do nothing. Clintons boom was driven by a massive increase in private sector debt.

You addressed one of three, and not even well. Like I said. I've gotten use to how you libs on this board work. And so far, only two of ya have proved that you can do anything but deny til ya die.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Is that why before America hit debt we didn't invade other nations, but after we did o.o? Those that believe in debt believe in slavery. One should always do best to balance the books. Not pass the buck to the next gen.

Countries were issuing debt way before the US even even existed, America has also had debt, it has never been debt free.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Countries were issuing debt way before the US even even existed, America has also had debt, it has never been debt free.

You couldn't be more wrong. We have, indeed, always had debt in the concept we owe someone something, but in the three terms I mentioned, they not only maintained balance, but actually made a profit. Some might dare say that's a smart use of the tax payers' hard earned dollars and keepin worth earnin'.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Once again the left shows how little they know about what it means to be a business owner and how policies drive up costs which lead to worker losses. It does however buy votes from the left, hopefully not enough to give us 4 more years of Obama

'Career killer': Obama's new overtime expansion under fire | Fox News

That's right. We don't need to pay workers overtime. We need to work them 80 hours a week without paying for ANYTHING over 40 hours. We hate big gubmint. We need to pay our workers so low that the gubmint will give them food stamps...............

Huh? :mrgreen:
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

If the number one conservative economic mantra - supply side tax policy - were not a proven failure a hundred times over, I might just listen to the endless parade of doom & gloom predictions from non-economists that they trot out every time something is done to benefit a group other than the richest of the rich. Really, I would.

But for now, I'll listen to sane economists who realize the wisdom of balancing the positive and negative likely results of a policy and do just that, rather than listen to non-economist partisans who blindly screaming "JOB KILLER!"



ie, even if raising the minimum wage to $11/hr and fixed there in real dollar terms might reduce some minimum wage jobs (But see 1960s when big min wage employers like McD's did their best) could result in some job losses in some industries, it's still outweighed by the stimulus effect of increased spending by those workers AND resulting reduction in the extent of the safety benefits which they need to take in ever-more-expensive America......and that's even if they have two full time min wage jobs.

But conservatives tend to just scream "JOB KILLER!" at such ideas.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

That's right. We don't need to pay workers overtime. We need to work them 80 hours a week without paying for ANYTHING over 40 hours. We hate big gubmint. We need to pay our workers so low that the gubmint will give them food stamps...............

Huh? :mrgreen:

Said Walmart corperate.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Once again the left shows how little they know about what it means to be a business owner and how policies drive up costs which lead to worker losses. It does however buy votes from the left, hopefully not enough to give us 4 more years of Obama

'Career killer': Obama's new overtime expansion under fire | Fox News

In 1975, when the 24K minimum was set (which would be a little over 100,000$ per year in todays money), markets didn't crash, workers weren't laid off in droves, and the world didn't end.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

In 1975, when the 24K minimum was set (which would be a little over 100,000$ per year in todays money), markets didn't crash, workers weren't laid off in droves, and the world didn't end.

It was also at the end of a recession as well and it did not even dent recovery.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

I can. First, you're exaggerating. The limit had increased since the great depression. But let's play in your court with this ball, and assume that's true. The fact is, that everytime you raise the min wage, you increase inflation due to the increase of costs, as once everyone is making a higher base, that raises the costs of everything. The true solution is to give the dollar the strongest value it can hold, so that minimum wage isn't below the poverity line. Now listen, I'm hardly high on the hog, infact, one might say we (me and mine) live below that poverty line. So I'm not against aiding those that are below that line in getting above it, but the unseen conquience, everytime, the min wage raises is so does the costs, as rich people don't like parting with pennies and will find a way to make money back. Be it by replacing the person with a machine, or finding some poor soul that has little choice but to work at a slave wage. The solution isn't in continually raising the bar, but to restore the value of the dollar. Gold standard alone won't fly in the digital age, so don't think i'm here to shill some Jeff Jarrett nonsense, but there is a truth in that america can make the dollar strong, like Clinton did (invention of common internet use, that is to say, anyone can get online as before it was just professors and colleges and military guys, ect., anyways, that helped). A strong economy makes it to where you don't have to keep making it harder on the workers and the bosses. And it is easy to achieve. First, you got to curtail inflation. One way to do that is what's being done with gas prices, so it's not like the current administration isn't trying to fix the issue. But that 16 trill in debt makes it hard for the dollar to look as strong as it did in a surplus. So yeah, america needs to build itself back up, build back up that surplus, so we use the intrest gained on the value of the dollar to pay for the programs that as a modern society are simply a must.

Your argument reads like you are addressing a point not at issue. This isn't a discussion of the minimum wage, but of structuring employment contracts so that individuals are not required to work beyond a certain amount of hours without just compensation. But I assume that you're just using that point because you see enough similarities between the two in order to make your point.

The most significant qualm that I have with your analysis is that it relies and depends upon individual owners and/or corporation leaders to act against their self-interest. The self-interest of these individuals dictates that they pursue a course that earns them the most profit in these situations. And that, in turn, incentivizes them to compensate their workers the least amount possible in order to adequately perform the job. This behavior naturally leads to all types of exploitations - from dismissing injured or pregnant individuals to requiring that they work in unsafe conditions.

Government intrusions are required in order to compensate for these types of inadequacies and to ensure that the larger population is cared for appropriately.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Get it through your heads, guys. Retail managers (the people this rule update is going to help the MOST) are the new middle class in this country. Except, many of them still aren't really....because they have to work 60 hours or more per week just to clear 35K per year, or less in some states.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Your argument reads like you are addressing a point not at issue. This isn't a discussion of the minimum wage, but of structuring employment contracts so that individuals are not required to work beyond a certain amount of hours without just compensation. But I assume that you're just using that point because you see enough similarities between the two in order to make your point.

The most significant qualm that I have with your analysis is that it relies and depends upon individual owners and/or corporation leaders to act against their self-interest. The self-interest of these individuals dictates that they pursue a course that earns them the most profit in these situations. And that, in turn, incentivizes them to compensate their workers the least amount possible in order to adequately perform the job. This behavior naturally leads to all types of exploitations - from dismissing injured or pregnant individuals to requiring that they work in unsafe conditions.

Government intrusions are required in order to compensate for these types of inadequacies and to ensure that the larger population is cared for appropriately.

O.O Holy Christ, a liberal on this board that actually debated me into rethinking my postion by not leveling me with insults but facts and logic. Dear Lord I think I've found a leprachaun. All good points, I have little refute to that brillantly laid out counter point. Teach your people, they need you.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

What people are missing, is that the rules do not forbid the employer from cutting the rate,
so the normal pay plus the overtime pay equal the old salary.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

The real solution is to simply follow the EXISTING law. That is to say, stop incorrectly classifying employees as executives/admin exempt status.

I mean, that's what the government is trying to force companies to do...You either feel the job is WORTH 47K per year and are now forced to PAY that....OR....it's clearly NOT worth that, at which point, it probably wasn't eligible to be considered an executive exempt position in the first damn place.

Instead of trying this passive aggressive, round about rout, how about our government simply ENFORCE IT'S LAWS???
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

Once again the left shows how little they know about what it means to be a business owner and how policies drive up costs which lead to worker losses. It does however buy votes from the left, hopefully not enough to give us 4 more years of Obama

'Career killer': Obama's new overtime expansion under fire | Fox News

Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

the issue is salaried employees working uncompensated hours in excess of 40 hours a week
to me, that says the businesses are requiring more hours than the 40 hours per week tat they are paying for at the base compensation

now those extra hours will be paid at 150 percent of the salary rate (hourly)
does the business owner pay that premium amount for the extra hours the business needs or does he instead hire someone else to pay only 100% of the salary rate

if he chose the second option, would that not then cause the employer to hire staff


now, before insisting the owner can alternatively cut hours, ask 'why was the owner working the salaried manager overtime if those extra hours were not actually needed to operate the business?' because i would be interested to know that answer
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

the issue is salaried employees working uncompensated hours in excess of 40 hours a week
to me, that says the businesses are requiring more hours than the 40 hours per week tat they are paying for at the base compensation

now those extra hours will be paid at 150 percent of the salary rate (hourly)
does the business owner pay that premium amount for the extra hours the business needs or does he instead hire someone else to pay only 100% of the salary rate

if he chose the second option, would that not then cause the employer to hire staff


now, before insisting the owner can alternatively cut hours, ask 'why was the owner working the salaried manager overtime if those extra hours were not actually needed to operate the business?' because i would be interested to know that answer
As I stated above, there is a third option, and one I know some employers will take.
They will reduce the hourly pay of the employee, so that the regular pay, plus the overtime pay,
equal what the salary was before.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

What people are missing, is that the rules do not forbid the employer from cutting the rate,
so the normal pay plus the overtime pay equal the old salary.

Nah, it'll be more. My company has already started acting in preparation of this. We down classed our RICM (receiving and inventory control manager) to a non management, hourly position, with a starting pay of 13 dollars an hour...this was done about...5 months ago now, and already, it's hurt our payrolls across the chain. Bottom line is, I don't think the company brass had ANY clue or care as to just HOW many hours they required our mid managers to work on any given week. They also downgraded the bakery managers, and the membership aqucisition and retention managers. So far, the bakery SUPERVISORS in my region are AVERAGING about 30 hours of OT per week. They, too, are paid 13 an hour. Think about that for a minute.
 
Re: Will Overtime Win Lead to Worker Loss

As I stated above, there is a third option, and one I know some employers will take.
They will reduce the hourly pay of the employee, so that the regular pay, plus the overtime pay,
equal what the salary was before.

In retail, it's not uncommon for managers to work 60-70 hours per week. And for that, they make 35-40K per year.


I gotta tell you, they're gonna have to bust these people down to minimum wage in order to break even, lol. And even THEN, no more on call, no more having to get called in on days off, no more alarm calls at 3am, etc etc etc etc etc.
 
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