Will America fall? (1 Viewer)

[liberateamerica]

I should probably add an "eventually" into the title, but then we'd have posters saying that all good things and powers come to an end, and that would sort of be missing the point. Here's how I see it:

1) A nation fighting costly wars the world round EVEN FOR THE RIGHT INTENT, however misguided the rationale and reasoning, will, presumably, eventually succumb to a fiscal emergency and/or bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy would lead to a sharp drop in the currency's value, correct? This would presumably instigate a panic not unlike the catalyst of the Great Depression, causing a second depression. The world's largest and most powerful economy grinding to a shuddering halt would have a powerful ripple effect that could cause other countries' economies to slip into major recessions or potentially depressions as well. This could *possibly, because this is hypothetical in nature* cause violence, chaos, and anarchy, which could create a breakdown of law, order, and a central government, thus collapsing the American government.

2) Fighting radical Islam is the right thing to do, and this may not sound very liberal of me, but I think that Bush may be PARTIALLY onto something here about fighting terrorists. However, granting the executive branch sweeping powers and suspending habeus corpus for citizens suspecting of being terrorists sounds like paranoia and overkill to me. Detaining persons for no reason or for extended periods of time without a lawyer is not just or fair, and is un-American in nature. The FBI wiretapping is one example of zealous fighting of terrorism gone too far. Suppose another such threat pops up in the future or that the current one continues on for a long time. The renowned American legal system could morph into a subdued version of the Constitution, with citizens accepting suspended legal rights and detainment without explanation.

3) If the military exerts itself fighting wars, drafts may occur, and, if young people are called to war, casualties will naturally also occur and this could cause a scarcity of the next generation of Americans, and as ridiculous as this sounds, that would cut down drastically on the population, and America may collapse because too many are being forced into service.

4) The military also poses another threat. A military junta or dictatorship could naturally form as people gradually accept their rights being taken away in the name of fighting some perceived mortal threat (i.e. "Iraq", "terrorists"). See #2 for more
An uprising or revolt could form and overthrow our government as we know it, or in one future war, we may begin losing, and America (unthinkable as this is) may be occupied.

5) Another world power (i.e. China or Iran) could rise and behave in a hostile manner towards America because of a desire to have control over the free world. America's economy and military could both collapse in the face of another world power fighting in both facets.

OR: Since the entire international community seems to be out to get America, the UN may decide to end the one road block to eliminating Israel. Kofi Annan will call for diplomacy, but the world will not obey his feeble calls and will throw his resolutions back at him. :lol:

Anyways, what are your opinions about this and please post why and when you think a potential collapse may occur and why about that, too.

 

[Billo_Really]

The United States will not collapse, because the United States does not exist. We are merely the collective assets in various Pacific Rim portfolio's.

 

[Loxd4]

The United States will not collapse, because the United States does not exist. We are merely the collective assets in various Pacific Rim portfolio's.

How do you say the United States dosen't exist?

 

[BodiSatva]

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
The United States will not collapse, because the United States does not exist. We are merely the collective assets in various Pacific Rim portfolio's

YES!

This wil be intersesting...

The USA exists for no other reason than HB Surf & Sport...

IF the Terrorists Blow THAT to hell then we have a problem...

 

[jamesrage]

With all the liberal nonsense and the *****fication of our military and the way we fight wars I say in a century or two,maybe sooner if the left gained full control.

 

[Hatuey]

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/15578-america-destined-fall-like-all-great-empires.html

All empires fall sooner or later.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Loxd4
How do you say the United States dosen't exist?

"...the United States dosen't exist".

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Bodisatva:
YES!

This wil be intersesting...

The USA exists for no other reason than HB Surf & Sport...

IF the Terrorists Blow THAT to hell then we have a problem...

If they get anywhere near Muttlynch's or Mothers, were thowing down!

 

[liberateamerica]

Can anyone give me an actual rationale for saying that the US doesn't exist? Yes, it's true that the Chinese have their hands deep into our pockets while we continue exporting little and importing much from them, but this doesn't mean that we're the portfolio of some Pacific Rim countries. I assure you that were we to pull out our economic support from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan et al., they would hurt more than we would.

This was meant to be a serious discussion...:roll:

In addition, can you explain your reasoning for voting the way you did?

Oh, and Hatuey: I understand what you're getting at, and that's the reason I didn't put "eventually" in the title.

 

[dragonslayer]

If we allow ourselves to succumb to world economy rather than a national economy, we will collapse financially. Modern corporations are multinational and are only interested in markets, power, and profits. I am speaking of corporations that use to be considered American. We need to quit Nafta and the WTo, and reinstate tariffs.

 

[Loxd4]

Well do you think America will fall from an inword or outword force?

 

[liberateamerica]

Well do you think America will fall from an inward or outward force?

Well, considering my opinion is that America won't collapse for a long time, I really don't have an answer to that question. However, in all likelihood, it will be an external force. True, we Americans are not the most unified, bound-together bunch, but we all respect one another at least marginally, and I believe that the vast majority of us are too civilized to cause another civil war, forcing an internal collapse. I believe that if we are to fall, it will either be because Earth unites into one conglomerate world gov't or because another nation somehow manages to build up troops and launch an all-out war (or launches nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles). Anyone else have an opinion?

 

[Inuyasha]

Well do you think America will fall from an inword or outword force?

Empires and great nations fall from within. The outer forces are seen something like buzzards around a dying carcass.

I do not think it will take more than a hundred years for this empire to collapse. Not if we follow history. As we come toward the present every empire before us has lasted less and less time. Start with China and come forward and if you build a time line you'll see exactly what I mean. I believe this ha much to do with the more and more rapid advance of technology.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Voted "Yes", but I couldn't figure out what poll option would fall between "5-10 years" and "a century or two". I think we're looking at something between the late 2020s and the end of the century, barring some unforeseeable catastrophe.

1) A nation fighting costly wars the world round ... will, presumably, eventually succumb to a fiscal emergency and/or bankruptcy.

This is a major concern. One need only look at election coverage for every election we've held in the past century to realize that the social fabric of this nation would not survive another Great Depression-- people are far too angry and our leaders have been feeding us years of propaganda blaming our ills on their political opponents.

There are several political factions that would consider just such an event to be an opportunity-- and others that will inevitably resist.

However, I do think our financial situation is salvageable, provided our next several elections provide us with more sensible leaders.

2) Fighting radical Islam is the right thing to do... ... However, granting the executive branch sweeping powers and suspending habeus corpus for citizens suspecting of being terrorists sounds like paranoia and overkill to me.

You believe that such moves have to do with fighting radical Islam? They are simply part of this Administration's political philosophy and their view of the role of the Executive branch. There have been some very eloquent papers written to justify not only the expanded laws, but the ways in which the President and his subordinates have blatantly disregarded even those limitations that the new laws still provide.

The President and Vice President of this country believe that they are above the law.

3) If the military exerts itself fighting wars, drafts may occur, and, if young people are called to war, casualties will naturally also occur and this could cause a scarcity of the next generation of Americans...

Losing less than a thousand American soldiers a year. That's not even a noticeable dent in the birth rate, much less anything that might cause a population loss.

Besides, plenty of young women think getting pregnant is a good way to get out of the military. The Draft would probably lead to a dramatic short-term increase in the birth rate.

4) A military junta or dictatorship could naturally form as people gradually accept their rights being taken away in the name of fighting some perceived mortal threat (i.e. "Iraq", "terrorists").

I find this similarly unlikely. Civilian government is a big part of what our soldiers believe they're fighting for-- it's part of our patriotic appeal and a major facet of our military indoctrination.

If a dictatorship forms, it will come from the civilian government itself.

5) Another world power (i.e. China or Iran) could rise and behave in a hostile manner towards America...

China is economically dependent upon us and growing moreso by the minute. This was actually originally a strategy to keep us from doing the same to them-- and now any hostile move against us would devastate their economy.

Iran will never be a world power. Russia might get back on her feet, though.

I have to go to work now. I will return later and post my explanation of why I believe our government is on borrowed time.

 

[Inuyasha]

I believe that the US-China situation is a "break even" one. Since they are holding our notes we also have a dependence on them. China also has had several "rebirths" in its history and another such event is not out of the question.

In fighting Islam one has to be careful not to over extend. The present fanaticism present in the Islamic world can create a situation that may cause grave problems for the traditional military approach.

 

[talloulou]

I believe eventually we are working towards one world government but we're a long way off.

 

[dragonslayer]

Well do you think America will fall from an inword or outword force?

I think that America will fail as a result of poor leadership from within, and by becoming part of a world economic community from without. Our country will fail basically because we will choose to discount our own and our leaders will be profiting from corporate monopoly. We need to get back to Capitalism and take care of America,

 

[liberateamerica]

Voted "Yes", but I couldn't figure out what poll option would fall between "5-10 years" and "a century or two". I think we're looking at something between the late 2020s and the end of the century, barring some unforeseeable catastrophe.

This is a major concern. One need only look at election coverage for every election we've held in the past century to realize that the social fabric of this nation would not survive another Great Depression-- people are far too angry and our leaders have been feeding us years of propaganda blaming our ills on their political opponents.

There are several political factions that would consider just such an event to be an opportunity-- and others that will inevitably resist.

However, I do think our financial situation is salvageable, provided our next several elections provide us with more sensible leaders.

You believe that such moves have to do with fighting radical Islam? They are simply part of this Administration's political philosophy and their view of the role of the Executive branch. There have been some very eloquent papers written to justify not only the expanded laws, but the ways in which the President and his subordinates have blatantly disregarded even those limitations that the new laws still provide.

The President and Vice President of this country believe that they are above the law.

Losing less than a thousand American soldiers a year. That's not even a noticeable dent in the birth rate, much less anything that might cause a population loss.

Besides, plenty of young women think getting pregnant is a good way to get out of the military. The Draft would probably lead to a dramatic short-term increase in the birth rate.

I find this similarly unlikely. Civilian government is a big part of what our soldiers believe they're fighting for-- it's part of our patriotic appeal and a major facet of our military indoctrination.

If a dictatorship forms, it will come from the civilian government itself.

China is economically dependent upon us and growing more so by the minute. This was actually originally a strategy to keep us from doing the same to them-- and now any hostile move against us would devastate their economy.

Iran will never be a world power. Russia might get back on her feet, though.

I have to go to work now. I will return later and post my explanation of why I believe our government is on borrowed time.

Korimyr, you've got some good points. It is true that the China-US relationship is symbiotic and growing tighter by the second. It's also true that the birth rate wouldn't go down signficantly...I was hyperbolizing. It's also more likely that the civilian gov't would form a dictatorship; however, it's not out of the question for a coup to occur. True, it's highly unlikely, but it could happen.

It is possible that Iran could become a regional power in the Mideast...Already, there are reports of Iranian agents in Iraq and in Lebanon, supporting Hezbollah. Iran and Syria also have a strong relationship, and China and Iran both do some heavy trading. Look at the size of the Iranian armed forces: around 915,000 in the regular armed forces & reservists and another 11M men who could be mobilized in an emergency. In addition, they are close to achieving nuclear capability and they have a Holocaust-denying, anti-Semitic, anti-democratic, anti-West, and anti-US power-crazed megalomaniac in charge. Not good!

Yes, I agree that politics is a bunch of crap in general and they've been feeding us lies for too long; the fabric of our gov't couldn't withstand another Great Depression.

 

[Inuyasha]

If we do not change certain attitudes like our own fundamentalism in both politics and religion I predict that in 50 years we will occupy a place in the world similar to that of the UK today.

Within the next 100 years democratic republics will give way to fascist sates.. Mainly because of population growth, diminishing food supplies and a failure to meet the energy crisis we are now facing by seriously seeking alternative sources of power.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by liberateamerica
Can anyone give me an actual rationale for saying that the US doesn't exist? Yes, it's true that the Chinese have their hands deep into our pockets while we continue exporting little and importing much from them, but this doesn't mean that we're the portfolio of some Pacific Rim countries. I assure you that were we to pull out our economic support from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan et al., they would hurt more than we would.

This was meant to be a serious discussion...

In addition, can you explain your reasoning for voting the way you did?

Oh, and Hatuey: I understand what you're getting at, and that's the reason I didn't put "eventually" in the title.

Here you go. This is what I was refering too. And believe me, this is no joke!

A SUPERPOWER IN DECLINE
America's Middle Class Has Become Globalization's Loser

By Gabor Steingart

...the dollar doesn't just strengthen the United States; it also makes it vulnerable. The government has pumped its currency into the world economy so vigorously that the dollar can now be brought to the point of collapse by external forces - such as those in Beijing, for example.

This undoubtedly superior United States doesn't exist anymore. As a center of power, it is still more powerful than others, but for some years now that energy has been flowing in the opposite direction. Today, Asian, Latin American and European nations are also playing a role in the United States's productive core. The world's greatest exporter became its greatest importer. The most important creditor became the most important debtor. Today, foreigners dispose of assets in the United States with a net value of $2.5 trillion, or 21 percent of gross domestic product. Nine percent of shares, 17 percent of corporate bonds and 24 percent of government bonds are held by foreigners.

Although I was exaggerating the point, I wasn't trying to be funny! Were a debtor nation.

 

[liberateamerica]

Hmmm...I agree that it's not good that foreign countries control so much of our economy, however, we don't really need to worry about Beijing because if they stopped trading with us, we'd stop trading with them, and that might hurt them just as much as it would hurt us. Actually, some economists theorize that having a trade deficit can somehow help an economy...though, I must say that I happen to disagree. Anyway, one of the things we've got to do is balance our budget because having a huge deficit isn't good and could start slowing us down...trillions of dollars is too much to owe.