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Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

Councilman

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I have no clue if what this clearly sick individual is about to leak is true or not, but it is obvious it puts our troops and those of our allies in danger and is not helpful in any way.

I would like to hear that this person has been placed in prison or better yet just disappeared and if asked the Pentagon had no comment.

I believe there is a provision in Patriot Act II that allows for for people who are a danger to to held without charge virtually for ever and no one even gets to know where they are.

I normally oppose this whole idea but in this case I can make an exception.

When it is discovered who gave him the papers that person should face the death penalty.

Yes it's harsh and I don't give a damn, who thinks so.

Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Reportedly at Least 100,000 - ABC News
In what is being described as the largest release of secret U.S. military documents ever, whistle-blowing web site WikiLeaks has released a trove of classified reports about the war in Iraq, including a secret U.S. government tally that puts the Iraqi death toll between 109,000 and 285,000, according to news sources that received advanced copies of the documents.

The documents include evidence of state sanctioned torture by the Iraqi government, new evidence of Iraqi government death squads, and Iran's involvement in funneling arms to Shiite militias, according to Arab news channel Al Jazeera, which has been able to review the documents before their release.
 

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Yes it's harsh and I don't give a damn, who thinks so.

I believe advocating the government to have the rightful ability to "disappear" someone for leaking information is reckless, immoral, degenerate and stupid. It's one thing to demand courts of law where everything can be matter of public record. But everyone gets their day in court; that is our principle on the matter. To advocate otherwise is detrimental to the Republic.
 

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I have no clue if what this clearly sick individual is about to leak is true or not, but it is obvious it puts our troops and those of our allies in danger and is not helpful in any way.

I would like to hear that this person has been placed in prison or better yet just disappeared and if asked the Pentagon had no comment.

I believe there is a provision in Patriot Act II that allows for for people who are a danger to to held without charge virtually for ever and no one even gets to know where they are.

I normally oppose this whole idea but in this case I can make an exception.

When it is discovered who gave him the papers that person should face the death penalty.

Yes it's harsh and I don't give a damn, who thinks so.

What I find pretty disturbing from your analysis is that you are apparently in favor of abducting and disposing of someone who is seeking to shed light on the full truth of the Iraq war. That sounds like a stereotypical corrupt government to me.

Whether the actions taken by our military were justified or not, we still deserve to know the full truth. They are acting in our name and if we don't know what they are doing, what will keep them from doing what ever they want?
 

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So I pretend to have an attitude of let's get him and it's all wrong, but when this low life plays judge and fury putting the lives of Americans and our allies in jeopardy that's just fine.

Is that it. Typical hypocrisy and double standards?

This scum should be tried and jailed and who ever his source should also face the ultimate penalty if possible.

There is a ways to protest and make a point that do not endanger lives and can bring about change and this is not one of them at all.

Thank you for showing your willingness to fight for the wrong thing.
 

Gibberish

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So I pretend to have an attitude of let's get him and it's all wrong, but when this low life plays judge and fury putting the lives of Americans and our allies in jeopardy that's just fine.

Is that it. Typical hypocrisy and double standards?

This scum should be tried and jailed and who ever his source should also face the ultimate penalty if possible.

There is a ways to protest and make a point that do not endanger lives and can bring about change and this is not one of them at all.

Thank you for showing your willingness to fight for the wrong thing.

The TRUTH should always be present no matter the impact.

You may believe it is the government duty to hide and lie to the American people but I cannot advocate that.

I've read through most of the document detailed on the wiki leaks site and to me it actually shows how all the reported, or lack thereof, for civilian deaths were actually caused by the insurgents through murder, IED, and public warfare. What negative impact of insurgents actively killing civilians have on the reputation of American forces?
 
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In what is being described as the largest release of secret U.S. military documents ever, whistle-blowing web site WikiLeaks has released a trove of classified reports about the war in Iraq, including a secret U.S. government tally that puts the Iraqi death toll between 109,000 and 285,000, according to news sources that received advanced copies of the documents.

The documents include evidence of state sanctioned torture by the Iraqi government, new evidence of Iraqi government death squads, and Iran's involvement in funneling arms to Shiite militias, according to Arab news channel Al Jazeera, which has been able to review the documents before their release.

Almost 300,000 deaths caused indirectly/directly by our invasion into Iraq?

I think I'm going to be sick.
 

Apocalypse

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Almost 300,000 deaths caused indirectly/directly by our invasion into Iraq?

I think I'm going to be sick.

I understand that the civilian death toll is more around 66,000.
 

Councilman

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The TRUTH should always be present no matter the impact.

You may believe it is the government duty to hide and lie to the American people but I cannot advocate that.

I've read through most of the document detailed on the wiki leaks site and to me it actually shows how all the reported, or lack thereof, for civilian deaths were actually caused by the insurgents through murder, IED, and public warfare. What negative impact of insurgents actively killing civilians have on the reputation of American forces?

Why is it you Leftist Liberals want to put words in our mouths that we never came close to saying?

I never said one damn thing close to: I "believe it is the government duty to hide and lie to the American people." what is wrong with so many peoples ability to understand the written word?

The potential risk to American young peoples lives has got to come before your hatred for Our Form of Government, the Constitution and President Bush.

I don't know if some of what is about to be released took place under Obama or not but it doesn't matter there are ways to do things that don't have to get people killed more than they already have been. If you put getting even with President Bush over the need to protect Human life you are all beyond redemption of any kind and I feel sorry for you not being able to see that.
 

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The TRUTH should always be present no matter the impact.

You may believe it is the government duty to hide and lie to the American people but I cannot advocate that.

I've read through most of the document detailed on the wiki leaks site and to me it actually shows how all the reported, or lack thereof, for civilian deaths were actually caused by the insurgents through murder, IED, and public warfare. What negative impact of insurgents actively killing civilians have on the reputation of American forces?

This sounds great, and it is, in theory. The problem is that some things should be kept secret by the government. Having random people decide what is acceptable to release is not a good policy. I was firmly against the war in Iraq, and still feel it was a complete and total mistake. However, releasing secret documents about the war is not acceptable, even if they make my case about the war easier to present.
 

apdst

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I believe advocating the government to have the rightful ability to "disappear" someone for leaking information is reckless, immoral, degenerate and stupid. It's one thing to demand courts of law where everything can be matter of public record. But everyone gets their day in court; that is our principle on the matter. To advocate otherwise is detrimental to the Republic.

This amounts to espionage and spying. There's no law that protects spies from summary executions.
 

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Why is it you Leftist Liberals want to put words in our mouths that we never came close to saying?

I never said one damn thing close to: I "believe it is the government duty to hide and lie to the American people." what is wrong with so many peoples ability to understand the written word?

The potential risk to American young peoples lives has got to come before your hatred for Our Form of Government, the Constitution and President Bush.

I don't know if some of what is about to be released took place under Obama or not but it doesn't matter there are ways to do things that don't have to get people killed more than they already have been. If you put getting even with President Bush over the need to protect Human life you are all beyond redemption of any kind and I feel sorry for you not being able to see that.

I won't even get into your hypocrisy of putting words in people's mouths.

I am for transparency of government. I want to know the details of our countries activites so I can make a decision in regard to my stance on the issue. I cannot support or be against deciding if American should continue engaging in war without knowing the details of the results of that war. That is why I want the details leaked.

Now with that said I can understand the concern with the ignorant having access to this information and screaming things like "Americans are going to die now" or "Americans are killers". The ignorant should not dictate the transparency of our government. Once we do that it's easy for the government to label the entire natino ignorant and not share a damn thing with us. The government should not have a choice of sharing non-tactical analysis of war activities. They should fear sharing the results with the populace because it is WE who will decide if they made bad choices and choose to fire them come next elections.
 

apdst

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It's fun when so called "anti-big government" individuals advocate for the government to have more control.

Sine when does, "anti-big government", equate to no government at all?
 

apdst

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I won't even get into your hypocrisy of putting words in people's mouths.

I am for transparency of government. I want to know the details of our countries activites so I can make a decision in regard to my stance on the issue. I cannot support or be against deciding if American should continue engaging in war without knowing the details of the results of that war. That is why I want the details leaked.

Now with that said I can understand the concern with the ignorant having access to this information and screaming things like "Americans are going to die now" or "Americans are killers". The ignorant should not dictate the transparency of our government. Once we do that it's easy for the government to label the entire natino ignorant and not share a damn thing with us. The government should not have a choice of sharing non-tactical analysis of war activities. They should fear sharing the results with the populace because it is WE who will decide if they made bad choices and choose to fire them come next elections.

I'm all for a transparent government, too. However, I want information revealed, using common sense and rational judgement, by people with the authority to do so. Wikileaks neither has the proper judgement, nor the authority to make the decision as what needs to be revealed and what doesn't.

Hundreds of Iraqi informants are named in these documents. No matter where you stand on the war, I think we can all agree that no one has the right to put the lives of those people in the danger, they currently find themselves in.
 

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Sine when does, "anti-big government", equate to no government at all?

Who said anything about no government at all? How is advocating for the government to have the ability to assasinate civilians they don't like "small government"?
 

apdst

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Who said anything about no government at all? How is advocating for the government to have the ability to assasinate civilians they don't like "small government"?

It doesn't take a very large governmental apparatus to execute a spy.
 

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This sounds great, and it is, in theory. The problem is that some things should be kept secret by the government. Having random people decide what is acceptable to release is not a good policy. I was firmly against the war in Iraq, and still feel it was a complete and total mistake. However, releasing secret documents about the war is not acceptable, even if they make my case about the war easier to present.

Oh I agree tactical or ongoing initaitives don't need to be shared but an annual non-detailed tactical view of total deaths and general causes of those deaths is not something that I see falling into that category.
 

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It doesn't take a very large governmental apparatus to execute a spy.

No but actions usually reserved for totalitarian governments isn't something I think our government should participate in.

So someone wanting to take information that the government doesn't want to share the public because it looks negative is a spy? A spy for who? American voters?
 
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apdst

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Oh I agree tactical or ongoing initaitives don't need to be shared but an annual non-detailed tactical view of total deaths and general causes of those deaths is not something that I see falling into that category.

That's all fine-n-good, but I want someone alot more qualified and possessing the proper authority to make that decision. Wikileaks doesn't fit that description, not did they segregate any of the information that was to be released. They just released it all.

Friendly lives have been put in danger by this leak. The perpatrators deserve to die for their crime.
 

apdst

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No but actions usually reserved for totalitarian governments isn't something I think our government should participate in.

I believe our government should take any action neccessary to prevent acts like this from taking place. This leak has endangered American lives.

So someone wanting to take information that the government doesn't want to share the public because it looks negative is a spy? A spy for who? American voters?

I think it's an insult to Americans as a whole, to insinuate that this leak was done in the best interests of the country and it's citizens.
 

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That's all fine-n-good, but I want someone alot more qualified and possessing the proper authority to make that decision. Wikileaks doesn't fit that description, not did they segregate any of the information that was to be released. They just released it all.
That would be the best scenario but that would never come out of our government until after a decade of review and with 90% of the data blacked out.

Friendly lives have been put in danger by this leak. The perpatrators deserve to die for their crime.
What data exactly puts American's in danger and what causes that danger?
 

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That's all fine-n-good, but I want someone alot more qualified and possessing the proper authority to make that decision. Wikileaks doesn't fit that description, not did they segregate any of the information that was to be released. They just released it all.

This does not happen often, but i agree 100 % here with apdst. When it is some random person who releases the information, the potential for bad far outweighs the potential for good. The system in place for evaluating secret information for general release is not perfect, but it is much better than just leaking masses of documents.
 

apdst

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That would be the best scenario but that would never come out of our government until after a decade of review and with 90% of the data blacked out.

Well, if that's what it takes, then so be it.


What data exactly puts American's in danger and what causes that danger?

Opeartional SOP's, information concerning tactical doctrine, the names of personel, names of Iraqi collaborators. There's no telling whatelse is in there. WE don't know what all's in there and that's exaclty the reason that just any richard cranium with a undercover contact and a website can't be allowed to make the call as to what is safe to release and what isn't.

Ask yourself one question: what qualifies this guy to make this call?

My answer to that question is, nothing; therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to make it.
 

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Opeartional SOP's, information concerning tactical doctrine, the names of personel, names of Iraqi collaborators. There's no telling whatelse is in there. WE don't know what all's in there and that's exaclty the reason that just any richard cranium with a undercover contact and a website can't be allowed to make the call as to what is safe to release and what isn't.

Ask yourself one question: what qualifies this guy to make this call?

My answer to that question is, nothing; therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to make it.

So your absolute that American lives will be lost with the release of these documents is based on the possibility of content that may or may not be contained in the documents?

No I don't think this guy is qualified to do so. I would rather these document be released with all personal and tactical information stripped out. If I was him I would do just that before releasing the documents. The only information that should be released is the overview analysis of the impacy of operations. That includes death tolls, reason for death, resuces, succesful transitions of securiy forces, etc.
 
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