• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

WikiLeaks Data Seem to Show Pakistan Helped Attack American Troops

The Dane

Active member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
253
Reaction score
62
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Perhaps the single most damming collection of data in a massive trove of secret documents from Afghanistan released by the website WikiLeaks is some 180 files that seem to show Pakistan's premiere intelligence service, the ISI, helping the Afghan insurgency attack American troops.
The United States provides more than a billion dollars to Pakistan each year for help in fighting terrorism, but the papers seem to link the ISI with major Afghan insurgent commanders; claim its representatives meet directly with the Taliban; accuse the agency of training suicide bombers; and indicts Pakistani intelligence officials on hatching up sensational ways to assassinate Afghan president Hamid Karzai and even poison the beer drunk by Americans in Afghanistan.
Wikileaks Documents Seem to Show ISI Pakistan Intelligence Helped Afghanistan Insurgents Attack American Troops - ABC News

WikiLeaks' founder Julian Assange said the documents are "legitimate," but he added that it is important not to take their contents at face value.

"We publish CIA reports all the time that are legitimate CIA reports. That doesn't mean the CIA is telling the truth," he said.
If the reports are true, there are some very serious allegations here. Remember when Bush told Pakistan after 9/11: "Either you're with us or against us."

If the allegations in these leaks were true it would bring an entire new light to Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan.

If they are not true, then what is the motive behind the leaks? What is the motive for trying to paint Pakistan as an enemy of the United States? Gulf of Tonkin anyone?
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,113
Reaction score
12,035
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Hardly a bind blowing OMFGS moment if you ask me. We have suspected this since forever, but it has not been politically correct to say it in Pakistan's face.

Same for the possible war crimes committed by NATO troops.

What is much more interesting is the revelation that US aircraft have been shot down with heat seeker rockets.

Oh and I almost forgot the pictures of the clear war crime by a US Apache crew... now that is disgusting. Funny how we have not heard they have been charged with war crimes..
 
Last edited:

Renae

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
48,389
Reaction score
18,084
Location
San Antonio Texas
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
The people responsible for Wikileaks need to be arrested, and their website shut down permanently.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,113
Reaction score
12,035
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The people responsible for Wikileaks need to be arrested, and their website shut down permanently.
Ahh good to know you are against free speech and all that wiz bang..

You do know that all the material released had only Top Secret classification right? The lowest secret classification there is...
 

donsutherland1

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
11,781
Reaction score
10,094
Location
New York
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
What is much more interesting is the revelation that US aircraft have been shot down with heat seeker rockets.
This shouldn't be surprising at all. That practice was commonplace during the Soviet experience.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
75,090
Reaction score
32,916
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed

The Dane

Active member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
253
Reaction score
62
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The people responsible for Wikileaks need to be arrested, and their website shut down permanently.
The website is based in Sweden, the founder of wikileaks is not American.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,113
Reaction score
12,035
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
This shouldn't be surprising at all. That practice was commonplace during the Soviet experience.
Well the difference is that the US gave the Afghans those rockets... who are they getting them from now... that is a very good question.
 

Renae

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
48,389
Reaction score
18,084
Location
San Antonio Texas
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
why? did the release threaten national security?
No, releasing classified data isn't dangerous at all to national security...

No...

(that's sarcasm for those of you in Rio Linda)

And to Answer PeteEU...
IT'S NOT THE RIGHT OR PLACE OF THE ****BAG THAT OWNS Wikileaks TO RELEASE INFORMATION. Those that provided the data, should be tried for Treason, and then shot.
 

Renae

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
48,389
Reaction score
18,084
Location
San Antonio Texas
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
The website is based in Sweden, the founder of wikileaks is not American.
No ****.

The owner should be tried for spying, and those that provided the data tried for Treason.

However, Congress has, at times, passed statutes creating related offenses that undermine the government or the national security, such as sedition in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, or espionage and sedition in the 1917 Espionage Act, which do not require the testimony of two witnesses and have a much broader definition than Article Three treason. For example, some well-known spies have been convicted of espionage rather than treason.

The Constitution does not itself create the offense; it only restricts the definition (the first paragraph), permits Congress to create the offense, and restricts any punishment for treason to only the convicted (the second paragraph). The crime is prohibited by legislation passed by Congress. Therefore the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." The requirement of testimony of two witnesses was inherited from the British Treason Act 1695 (Since 1945, however, this has been abolished in British law and treason cases are now subject to the same rules of evidence and procedure as a murder trial, but the US requirement still stands barring an amendment).
Treason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

The Dane

Active member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
253
Reaction score
62
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
What has he released specifically that is a threat to security? Don't generalize.
 

rathi

Count Smackula
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
7,890
Reaction score
4,730
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If Pakistan is in fact actively working against the U.S. and Karazi, it is a serious blow to our war aims. We already are struggling to stabilize the nation as is, and we have tens of thousands of American soldiers in place. Karazi is going to have to accomplish that alone, and with Pakistan supporting his foes.

The other question is whether to continue funding Pakistan. While it may seem natural to cut-off the funding, that may not be the best move. Pakistan's government is not united, and different factions are in conflict. It is possible that the group that is supporting insurgents is separate from the group that we are giving the money to. If that is the case, pulling the money would make the situation worse. In any case, it would be worth reviewing exactly where the money we give them ends up.
 

Ockham

Noblesse oblige
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
23,909
Reaction score
11,001
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
We literally gave them the weapons to do it.
Let's bring this up to date and put aside Soviet 1980's cold war for a minute.

Secretary of State Clinton identifies 500 million dollars to Pakistan - - BBC - July 19th, 2010.
Congress approves 7.5 billion dollars in aid over the next 5 years - NYT - October, 2009.
U.S. training counter-insurgency Pakistan troops - NYT - July 11, 2010

Pakistan orders 4.5 billion in arms - Dawn.com - Sept. 17, 2009

U.S. to continue selling arms to Pakistan - Voice of America - July 23, 2010.


So why would all of this continue "business as usual" given all this information coming out where we (now) apparently KNOW the Pakistani's are helping kill our own troops?
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,746
Reaction score
6,213
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
If Pakistan is in fact actively working against the U.S. and Karazi, it is a serious blow to our war aims. We already are struggling to stabilize the nation as is, and we have tens of thousands of American soldiers in place. Karazi is going to have to accomplish that alone, and with Pakistan supporting his foes.

The other question is whether to continue funding Pakistan. While it may seem natural to cut-off the funding, that may not be the best move. Pakistan's government is not united, and different factions are in conflict. It is possible that the group that is supporting insurgents is separate from the group that we are giving the money to. If that is the case, pulling the money would make the situation worse. In any case, it would be worth reviewing exactly where the money we give them ends up.
I don't think it's really "a group" or some united entity.
It's probably just some army and state officials that are acting as individuals to aid the insurgency against the US and Karzai, from political reasoning.
 

j-mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
38,279
Reaction score
11,306
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Ahh good to know you are against free speech and all that wiz bang..

You do know that all the material released had only Top Secret classification right? The lowest secret classification there is...

Once again you are wrong Pete.


Altough the documents are at the "SECRET" level, they are still Classified information. Who is this putz to decide to release them?

The damage is not yet known fully, however they could put American lives at risk.

Good article here:

Pentagon review of WikiLeaks documents may take weeks - The West Australian

j-mac
 

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
79,901
Reaction score
20,981
Location
I love your hate.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Ahh good to know you are against free speech and all that wiz bang..

You do know that all the material released had only Top Secret classification right? The lowest secret classification there is...


What a shining jewel of collosal ignorance.

"confidential" is 1st, "secret" is second, guess what's third?


Oh and we wont go into cnwdi or sbi sci clearances. Your fail has been exposed.


:failpail:


:mrgreen:
 

j-mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
38,279
Reaction score
11,306
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
What has he released specifically that is a threat to security? Don't generalize.
Are you trying to imply that nothing released could hurt troops, or our efforts? how do you think you know that, considering that those in the Pentagon don't even know yet, the damage caused?

What a question.


j-mac
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
50,450
Reaction score
32,193
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Once again you are wrong Pete.


Altough the documents are at the "SECRET" level, they are still Classified information. Who is this putz to decide to release them?

The damage is not yet known fully, however they could put American lives at risk.

Good article here:

Pentagon review of WikiLeaks documents may take weeks - The West Australian

j-mac
the "putz" is the same kind of patriot who exposed the pentagon papers during the vietnam war
someone who recognizes that embarrassing information - such as the numerous unreported instances of collateral damage, some of it potentially intentional - deserves to be disclosed and dealt with rather than hidden via top security label
someone who believes the country is by, for and of the people ... who need to know the misguided actions of its leadership

the party on this thread who is wrong is one who believes a swede is committing treason against the USA by publishing this information via wikileaks
even tho that forumite posted the definition of treason, they were unable to recognize that a swede has no allegiance to the USA, and thus cannot be sanctioned for treasonous activities
 

donsutherland1

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
11,781
Reaction score
10,094
Location
New York
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Well the difference is that the US gave the Afghans those rockets... who are they getting them from now... that is a very good question.
As details are lacking, my speculation is:

1) Some are old
2) Others are being smuggled in possibly via Iran and Pakistan if U.S. Intelligence concerning weapons smuggling from both countries is accurate
3) From re-engineering the Stinger missiles, there might also exist a modest local capability for building such rockets; often the capabilities of enemies has been underestimated; I see no compelling evidence why such localized manufacture would not be possible, though it might be relatively small in scale
 

j-mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
38,279
Reaction score
11,306
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
the "putz" is the same kind of patriot who exposed the pentagon papers during the vietnam war
someone who recognizes that embarrassing information - such as the numerous unreported instances of collateral damage, some of it potentially intentional - deserves to be disclosed and dealt with rather than hidden via top security label
someone who believes the country is by, for and of the people ... who need to know the misguided actions of its leadership

the party on this thread who is wrong is one who believes a swede is committing treason against the USA by publishing this information via wikileaks
even tho that forumite posted the definition of treason, they were unable to recognize that a swede has no allegiance to the USA, and thus cannot be sanctioned for treasonous activities

Hmmmm....I see. And if and when this information released is tied back to the death of some American troops, will he still be a patriot?


j-mac
 

MKULTRABOY

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Something tells me this enrages people because the leaked info doesn't suit their political agenda.
Also, the govt stated the info was ultimately irrelevant. (NPR)

Hmmmm....I see. And if and when this information released is tied back to the death of some American troops, will he still be a patriot?
And if the information creates enough political impetus to stop wasting our resources on an un-winnable war?
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
No, releasing classified data isn't dangerous at all to national security...

No...

(that's sarcasm for those of you in Rio Linda)

And to Answer PeteEU...
IT'S NOT THE RIGHT OR PLACE OF THE ****BAG THAT OWNS Wikileaks TO RELEASE INFORMATION. Those that provided the data, should be tried for Treason, and then shot.
That's just really stupid and silly.
Be reasonable now.
 

Opteron

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
629
Reaction score
136
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Here's Q&A for the leak:

Q&A: What do WikiLeak documents tell us? - CNN.com

(CNN) -- CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson analyzes the fallout from the publication of tens of thousands of U.S. military and diplomatic reports about Afghanistan by whistleblower website WikiLeaks.

Q: What do these documents tell us about the war in Afghanistan?

A: It's more detail than we've ever seen before about the war. The newspapers -- the New York Times, the Guardian in the UK and others -- have had access to the documents for several weeks and have had the chance to do the most digging.
Just to clarify, the info is secret not top secret. Also, there are lots of documents so we might have to wait to see what else shows up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top Bottom