• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Why we need less college and more reality?

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?
 

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
38,310
Reaction score
24,673
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I am not familiar with the OP, but I agree in earnest that there is too much emphasis placed on a degree, any degree. There is call for people willing to get dirty and sweaty in the trades. There is also better than average money to be made, with minimal schooling debt. There are many degrees that provide a sorry ROI, IMO.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,720
Reaction score
6,276
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I am not familiar with the OP, but I agree in earnest that there is too much emphasis placed on a degree, any degree. There is call for people willing to get dirty and sweaty in the trades. There is also better than average money to be made, with minimal schooling debt. There are many degrees that provide a sorry ROI, IMO.

Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
126,472
Reaction score
38,363
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends.


And you're worried about the reality of college.
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
16,496
Reaction score
21,701
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

I agree that more emphasis and social support should be leveled at trade schooling, because not everyone is capable of being a rocket scientist (or physician, lawyer, engineer, psychologist, etc.).

Many people would be content as a truck driver, plumber, mechanic, electrician, cook, carpenter, metal worker, welder, miner, hell even just working in some store as a clerk, sales person, or artisan (make jewelry, sculpt, etc.) if our society returned to giving the working person respect.

We have a lot of people who are getting a degree of some kind, ANY kind, simply because they have been taught it is the only way to get ahead.

The politicians made it easier (in the short term) to pay for "higher education" and kids have bought into the need for a degree and the massive long-term debt after getting one in some so-called "discipline" where they still end up working as Asst. Manager of a Wal-Mart.

There is a whole business involved in getting kids loans and pushing degrees; with online colleges and even IVY League schools expanding and churning out graduates who only have a piece of paper (degree) and no workable or saleable skills. (Anyone else note how there are more and more Administrative positions than there are actual teaching positions in many Universities and colleges these days?)

If people really wanted kids to succeed they should actually encourage them to engage in something they are REALLY interested in and have a drive to do well. Respect Tradesmen as much as Scientists.
 
Last edited:

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?

Not when you consider we still need people to build our buildings, wire them, install plumbing, HVAC, etc. Or how about shipping goods or transporting people?
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

You should be knocking Universities....they have largely failed, they are not interested in education anymore, and neither are most of their customers.
 

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I agree that more emphasis and social support should be leveled at trade schooling, because not everyone is capable of being a rocket scientist (or physician, lawyer, engineer, psychologist, etc.).

Many people would be content as a truck driver, plumber, mechanic, electrician, cook, carpenter, metal worker, welder, miner, hell even just working in some store as a clerk, sales person, or artisan (make jewelry, sculpt, etc.) if our society returned to giving the working person respect.

We have a lot of people who are getting a degree of some kind, ANY kind, simply because they have been taught it is the only way to get ahead.

The politicians made it easier (in the short term) to pay for "higher education" and kids have bought into the need for a degree and the massive long-term debt after getting on in some "discipline" where they still end up working as Asst. Manager of a Wal-Mart.

If people really wanted kids to succeed they should actually encourage them to engage in something they are REALLY interested in and have a drive to do. Respect Tradesmen as much as Scientists.

Plus, they aren't saddled for the next 20-30 years' worth of paying back college loans when they should use that time to pay off a mortgage.
 

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
You should be knocking Universities....they have largely failed, they are not interested in education anymore, and neither are most of their customers.
There has to be a balance. Law, Medicine, Engineering, and yes, Education fields require degreed credentials and especially the first two, require additional post-grad schooling.
 

Bullseye

Fund police; Defund the politicians
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
34,146
Reaction score
11,352
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?
Ask that to the guy that's fixing your car.
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
There has to be a balance. Law, Medicine, Engineering, and yes, Education fields require degreed credentials and especially the first two, require additional post-grad schooling.

The Humanities used to be extremely valuable but as Paglia and Jordan Peterson point out constantly they have been completely wrecked in the service of the New Religion....the New Left.

Tucker Carlson has been going on about this lately as well.
 

Eriech

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
1,034
There is a song about unanswered prayers; I thank God for 3 rejection letters. My SATs and class rank were in line. They all said I didn't have enough extra curricula. I worked.....full time. I guess that was not enough. Maybe I should have hung with the Chum Gang, cut class and enrolled as a foreign student or Native American.

Life turned out good.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 

Mach

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
21,321
Reaction score
12,905
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Truck driving is not something I would recommend anyone shoot for who is that young, especially considering we're going to have AI driven vehicles soon.
It's not a bad fall-back, but it's tough on the body, and on a family life, from what I hear. If someone is drawn to it, that's different, and they can make decent pay.

I think everyone should get a higher education, even if it's just for fun while they learn a trade. Community colleges are often absurdly cheap, easily afforded paying out of pocket even. You don't have to go in debt necessarily to afford college. If you go to a local college and do really well, you might also get scholarships or justify taking out a loan to go to a more prestigious school, all sorts of ways you can play it.

Trades often grown into sole proprietorships, and having a little background knowledge in finance, some good math skills, exposure to other subjects that get you thinking outside your comfort zone...I think it's a good thing to do even if you're gonna do a trade.

Or just part-time college/night classes, maybe a 1 or 2-year certificate, that's cool too. Anything is better than nothing in many cases, even if your grades are poor, the environment is pretty good with teachers, counselors, and other students looking to start careers, etc, often in your own age group. I think it's something to take advantage of personally. Everyone should aim for a well-rounded education in the liberal arts on top of their chosen career or field of study.

You only get exposure to some tiny fraction of career choices and disciplines without college/university. I use to hire right out of 3 local community colleges into a trade-like technical job. Not a one of them would have ever had the opportunity had they not been there.

We've invested lots of money into those institutions, avail yourself of that investment! And if you flunk out, who cares, take classes that interest you and forget the grade. But if you go that route, do it at local colleges that are cheap :)
 

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
38,310
Reaction score
24,673
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?

Not sure I am following here; where do you turn for those services that you cannot/are not equipped to perform?
 

Kal'Stang

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,744
Reaction score
22,569
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

I can't remember which country it is but there is a country which throughout the school years they work with the parents and children and using their own judgements help identify and place children in areas which they are best suited and tailor those children's education towards that. For example if a particular student is really good at math then they will tailor the child's education towards fields that require math. Making refinements as the child gets older and more sure of what they want to be when they are adults. If a student is good in science related studies then they will tailor the child's education towards the sciences. Again, refining the education as the child gets older.

I think maybe this is something that we should be doing here in the US.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,720
Reaction score
6,276
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Not sure I am following here; where do you turn for those services that you cannot/are not equipped to perform?

Most jobs nowadays that used to required skilled craftsmen to perform manual labor have been rendered obsolete by the assembly line and robotic workers.

I don’t see anyone advertising for their need in apprentices.


It’s college all the way for me.
 

Bullseye

Fund police; Defund the politicians
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
34,146
Reaction score
11,352
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The idea that one needs to go to college is one that, IMHO, needs to be forgotten. Yes, there will always be a need for people with advanced education in the STEM fields but there are also many demands for people with hands-on skills as well. There needs to be a reality check on the hundreds of thousands of kids running up tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt getting degrees that have zero market value. Education for education's seek is a fine notion, but it comes at a cost that people pay for a decade or two after graduating.
 
Last edited:

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
58,059
Reaction score
44,961
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?
This is a valid point, I think.

I very much support a publicly funded 2 year Community College program, for every American. This allows those that do not desire a university degree to get two year's vocational training in a field they desire, and also allows those that desire a university degree to get a two-year head-start, cutting their university payments or loans to two years in total. I think a plan like this is a win-win, I believe.

But I'd be remiss if I didn't also point-out one thing: Besides its value in attaining income, a university degree has value in the education itself. There is a personal value in receiving a good education from a good school. That value of course, can only be assessed by the person desiring it.
 

Kal'Stang

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,744
Reaction score
22,569
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?

Cooking is a trade. Nursing is a trade (bet you didn't know that huh?). Carpentry is a trade (builds homes). HVAAC is a trade. There are LOTS of trades out there that are anything BUT irrelevant.

BTW: In regards to your flippant "Where is a wood carvers guild", here's one, and there's many more: Texas Woodcarvers Guild
 

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
38,310
Reaction score
24,673
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Most jobs nowadays that used to required skilled craftsmen to perform manual labor have been rendered obsolete by the assembly line and robotic workers.

I don’t see anyone advertising for their need in apprentices.


It’s college all the way for me.



I’m still not following; what assembly line/robot maintains your vehicles, repairs thing that fail at your residence? Delivers your correspondence............and so on, and so on...
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,720
Reaction score
6,276
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I’m still not following; what assembly line/robot maintains your vehicles, repairs thing that fail at your residence? Delivers your correspondence............and so on, and so on...

I am speaking from my experience: I never encountered any blacksmith schools or carpentry schools.

I chose the college path because in my view there was no obvious alternative
 

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
34,945
Reaction score
23,789
Location
Southern England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Education shows an individual new ways to think about things and extends them as a fuller more rounded person if done right. This anti-intellectual drive to drag everyone down to a level is a relatively new sickness.
 

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
This is a valid point, I think.

I very much support a publicly funded 2 year Community College program, for every American. This allows those that do not desire a university degree to get two year's vocational training in a field they desire, and also allows those that desire a university degree to get a two-year head-start, cutting their university payments or loans to two years in total. I think a plan like this is a win-win, I believe.

But I'd be remiss if I didn't also point-out one thing: Besides its value in attaining income, a university degree has value in the education itself. There is a personal value in receiving a good education from a good school. That value of course, can only be assessed by the person desiring it.

Even the two year course isn't always necessary. It takes an average of 10 weeks to obtain your Class-A Commercial Driver's License, almost as long for a Class B with Passenger Endorsement.
 

Bassman

Next we have #12. The Larch
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
3,834
Reaction score
765
Location
West end of the Erie Canal (That's Buffalo, NY for
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I am speaking from my experience: I never encountered any blacksmith schools or carpentry schools.

I chose the college path because in my view there was no obvious alternative

That's on you, but don't knock people who decided against it, considering there will always be a need for manual jobs.
 
Top Bottom