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Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friends.

Renae

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We all hear the calls for Universal Healthcare, that there are people in dire need of treatment denied their right to a healthy life because they are poor.

That right there is the fundamental flaw in the argument. No one has a Right to healthcare. You have the Right to seek treatment, you do not have the Right to force another to pay for your treatment. That is what the discussion really boils down to, the ideological divide between the two views on the issue.

We are a Republic, founded on the principle that your destiny is in your heads. You owe your fellow man only that you obey the laws of the land and live your life without intruding upon his. There is no Right that requires an obligation from another to provide said Right. It would be like holding a rally for your personal political cause, and forcing others to pay for your rally against their will. You have the Right to the rally, but you have to fund the logistics of it.

Sadly, we have moved further and further away from this. Every move away from this principle was done ostensibly for “the good of all”. However the truth is each move was driven by the greed of politicians for power.

We've reached a point in our society where we face having to pay the piper for the errors of our grandparents. However, many have become so entrenched into believing that the Government is the source of prosperity, the dispenser of well being, the arbiter of success that we are now facing the prospect of seeing our Healthcare system become the play ground of politicians.

Which is what “Obamacare” really is. Politicians using the promise of “free or better” healthcare with other peoples money. This ignores the rights of those whom are forced to pay for said healthcare and is but a gateway to a single payer system where decisions about your health are no longer between you and the doctor, but between the doctor and the Government.

No one wants to see people die because they cannot afford the treatment they need, however forcing the tax payers to foot the bill is not the answer either. The resource of tax dollars is finite, and we're facing an economic collapse if we don't reign in our out of control Government spending. We can ill afford the massive burden that is Obamacare, let alone a move to a UHC system.

In the end, both sides want the same thing, for people to be able to live their lives well. It is the difference though on how to achieve that which divides us, with one side believing the individual is responsible for their lives, and other the other believing that we are responsible. Friends, we cannot be responsible, we cannot afford to be. You have the right to succeed or fail in this life. Trying to make life failure free will make us all fail.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

In the end, both sides want the same thing, for people to be able to live their lives well. It is the difference though on how to achieve that which divides us, with one side believing the individual is responsible for their lives, and other the other believing that we are responsible. Friends, we cannot be responsible, we cannot afford to be. You have the right to succeed or fail in this life. Trying to make life failure free will make us all fail.

No secret that I'm a Conservative. But this is one issue where I stand with Obama.

If you're poor in America, you get free healthcare. Taxpayers are already paying for that. If your employer provides your health insurance, even though most likely you have to pay something toward it, you don't even know how much it costs. If your employer doesn't provide healthcare, in all likelihood, you don't have any insurance....be you poor, lower-middle, middle or upper-middle class. Individual healthcare insurance is very expensive...there are built-in exclusions to where sometimes it seems like the insurance companies are excluding the skin and all its contents.

I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. As such, I have always provided my own healthcare insurance. When I finally left American Family Insurance a few years ago and went into my state's ICHIP plan, I was paying AF $850 a month. Who can afford that? Well, I had to because without it I would have been homeless in the streets. Now I'm paying $640 a month and very grateful that my state subsidizes my insurance thru BCBS/ICHIP.

As an entrepreneur, because I could afford insurance, my company created at least a dozen jobs in addition to my own. Entrepreneurs are good for the economy.

How many would-be entrepreneurs are stuck in their 9 to 5's because they can't afford their own health insurance? Or -- because they have pre-existing conditions that preclude their even buying insurance at any cost? Plenty. Plenty!!

While I would absolutely love to see a $500 or $1000 mandatory deductible for health insurance plans (mine is $5,200), I think our government did the right thing. We need everyone sharing the healthcare burden. We're already sharing the burden for the poor. We need to help everyone.
 

Jetboogieman

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

What we have here is a fundamental disagreement on philosophy.

Both have their negatives and their positives. Your system is not by any means perfect and my system is by no means perfect.

What I know from first hand experience: If you have money in America, you can have access to the BEST health care in the world. Hands down no contest I know it first hand. But that doesn't mean you have the best SYSTEM in the world.

It seems to leave many people behind.

Not only that, but it places huge burdens on family and indivuals who through fear of not having health care and getting sick and going bankrupt, pay out their asses for Health Care insurance which in the end, could drop them any time they wanted with some lame ass excuse.

I think the question shouldn't be asked if Health Care is a right, I think the question should be asked should health care be a medium for money making. My answer? Absolutely not.

The system is fixed, it isn't "free market" because these insurance companies up until recently made sure all the rules were bent in their favour and they had a monolopy on it, that's not "free market".

And I'm sure with everything I've just said we'll have a lot of disagreements but I'll go back to personal experience.

Does Canada have long waiting times for some surgeries, absolutely.

Is it hard to see certain specialists, yes, I know it well.

But Its a trade off, it's always a trade off since as I said before no system is perfect.

In Canada, I don't have that great financial burden on my back. If I get hurt, I will be tended to. I know that without a doubt. And I don't have to worry about medical bills or insurance paperwork. I am a Canadian Citizen and by that, have the right to health care. It is a fantastic thing, would I trade it for your money making system, never. You ask anybody in our system save a couple on this site if they were trade our system for yours, the answer would be a resounding no. That speaks volumes when very few Canadians want your system, but alot of Americans feel a system like ours would be better.

THAT's the difference.

That money I don't have to spend on Health Care can go else where, businesses don't have to worry about providing health care allowing them to use their money in other ways. Some businesses do provide extra medical benefits as a BONUs and they're not required to.

All a trade off.

Best Health Care In The World - If you got money
Long Waiting times but its free - I don't have to worry about going bankrupt over medical bills.

Me and my fellow countrymen help eachother out. When you're sick, I got your back. That's the way I and many others feel.

This has been Jets incorrehant health care rant of the day, feel free to pick it apart I couldn't care less, I would never want your system in a million years.

But I'll use it if I got the dough ;)
 

Renae

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

What we have here is a fundamental disagreement on philosophy.

Both have their negatives and their positives. Your system is not by any means perfect and my system is by no means perfect.

What I know from first hand experience: If you have money in America, you can have access to the BEST health care in the world. Hands down no contest I know it first hand. But that doesn't mean you have the best SYSTEM in the world.

It seems to leave many people behind.

Not only that, but it places huge burdens on family and indivuals who through fear of not having health care and getting sick and going bankrupt, pay out their asses for Health Care insurance which in the end, could drop them any time they wanted with some lame ass excuse.

I think the question shouldn't be asked if Health Care is a right, I think the question should be asked should health care be a medium for money making. My answer? Absolutely not.

The system is fixed, it isn't "free market" because these insurance companies up until recently made sure all the rules were bent in their favour and they had a monolopy on it, that's not "free market".

And I'm sure with everything I've just said we'll have a lot of disagreements but I'll go back to personal experience.

Does Canada have long waiting times for some surgeries, absolutely.

Is it hard to see certain specialists, yes, I know it well.

But Its a trade off, it's always a trade off since as I said before no system is perfect.

In Canada, I don't have that great financial burden on my back. If I get hurt, I will be tended to. I know that without a doubt. And I don't have to worry about medical bills or insurance paperwork. I am a Canadian Citizen and by that, have the right to health care. It is a fantastic thing, would I trade it for your money making system, never. You ask anybody in our system save a couple on this site if they were trade our system for yours, the answer would be a resounding no. That speaks volumes when very few Canadians want your system, but alot of Americans feel a system like ours would be better.

THAT's the difference.

That money I don't have to spend on Health Care can go else where, businesses don't have to worry about providing health care allowing them to use their money in other ways. Some businesses do provide extra medical benefits as a BONUs and they're not required to.

All a trade off.

Best Health Care In The World - If you got money
Long Waiting times but its free - I don't have to worry about going bankrupt over medical bills.

Me and my fellow countrymen help eachother out. When you're sick, I got your back. That's the way I and many others feel.

This has been Jets incorrehant health care rant of the day, feel free to pick it apart I couldn't care less, I would never want your system in a million years.

But I'll use it if I got the dough ;)

The problem is, that your system is not voluntary, it's forced. And that is unacceptable.
 

roughdraft274

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

You have the Right to seek treatment, you do not have the Right to force another to pay for your treatment.
What happens when a person without insurance or any significant amount of money to speak of goes to the hospital for a 30,000 dollar emergency surgery and doesn't pay his bill?

Making people buy their own health insurance and covering part of the cost of it for the poor is a common sense, well thought out approach and needed. Forcing people to buy their own health insurance is hardly a socialist utopia as some people make it out to be.
 

Paschendale

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

Only looking out for ourselves and ignoring the hardship of others... that makes us barbarians. That was the mentality of slave owners. Every single step away from barbarism and towards civility that we, as a species, have taken, has been away from ruthless self-interest and towards equality and fostering community. It took us thousands of years to get from "a few people at the top literally make all the laws" to "everyone has the right to a trial, decided by a jury of their peers".

The creedo of "every man for himself" and no attempt to make up for some people being born wealthy and most being born poor, that was how the Dark Ages operated. Peasant farmers who were legally bound to the land they lived on, which was then owned by a wealthy baron. Yep, most people back then were slaves.

And this nonsense about "voluntary" and "compulsion". Oh grow up. That's childish nonsense. Not killing people is just as voluntary or compulsive as contributing to a central health fund. The law exists to protect us. This is really about people who like to be passive, and pretend they can shirk the basic responsibilities that come with being a modern human. To say that we have no duty to protect one another... it's simply not true. Whining and selfish children piss and moan when mommy makes them clean the dishes. Adults know it needs to get done and pitch in.
 

Jetboogieman

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

The problem is, that your system is not voluntary, it's forced. And that is unacceptable.

Ah not its not, if you don't want to have health care here, you don't have to. No one forces you to sign up.
 

Manc Skipper

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

People all over the industrialised world have a form of universal healthcare, just not Americans.
 

digsbe

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I disagree. I believe that we have the right to treatment and should not be denied treatment due to financial means. In our society we try to value human life. It would be an atrocity to let someone die because they can't pay for a medical procedure or for a medicine. Healthcare is a necessity. I know private insurance is something you purchase, but the structure of it is similar to that of a nationalized healthcare system. Essentially, with an insurance plan you have people paying money into a pool, and when someone on the plan requires treatment that money is given to them according to their policy. The problem is that insurance companies are profits motivated, not consumer motivated. A nationalized healthcare system would be similar, as everyone pays a tax into a pool, and treatment is paid for based on needs. The missing equation here is the profits, as insurance would become a public service and not a for profit enterprise. From my experience with insurance companies, after the first of the year they all raised premiums and decreased coverage benefits (at least on the pharmaceutical side of things). They make tons of money at the expense of people who must pay money they don't have for procedures that they need to live.

Basically, I believe healthcare is a right. Human life is valuable, and we shouldn't allow someone to die because they can't financially pay for a necessary procedure or medicine. Insurance companies run a for profit service that focuses on income instead of customer care. A national system would reduce the profits from the equation and the focus would be on patient care (in an ideal scenario, I do acknowledge the wrong and broken systems in other nations).
 

justabubba

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

let's see who sides with the OP on this matter:
... the pharmaceuticals/health products industry again outspent all industries by shelling out $230.9 million for lobbying services, or a daily average of $1.3 million for the 184 days that the 110th Congress met in 2008. The drug industry, which will be trying to influence this year's debates on health care reform, has spent $1.6 billion on federal lobbying over the last 11 years, more than any other industry.
Washington Lobbying Grew to $3.2 Billion Last Year, Despite Economy - OpenSecrets Blog | OpenSecrets
 

StillBallin75

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I disagree. I believe that we have the right to treatment and should not be denied treatment due to financial means. In our society we try to value human life. It would be an atrocity to let someone die because they can't pay for a medical procedure or for a medicine. Healthcare is a necessity. I know private insurance is something you purchase, but the structure of it is similar to that of a nationalized healthcare system. Essentially, with an insurance plan you have people paying money into a pool, and when someone on the plan requires treatment that money is given to them according to their policy. The problem is that insurance companies are profits motivated, not consumer motivated. A nationalized healthcare system would be similar, as everyone pays a tax into a pool, and treatment is paid for based on needs. The missing equation here is the profits, as insurance would become a public service and not a for profit enterprise. From my experience with insurance companies, after the first of the year they all raised premiums and decreased coverage benefits (at least on the pharmaceutical side of things). They make tons of money at the expense of people who must pay money they don't have for procedures that they need to live.

Basically, I believe healthcare is a right. Human life is valuable, and we shouldn't allow someone to die because they can't financially pay for a necessary procedure or medicine. Insurance companies run a for profit service that focuses on income instead of customer care. A national system would reduce the profits from the equation and the focus would be on patient care (in an ideal scenario, I do acknowledge the wrong and broken systems in other nations).

Great response digs! I couldn't have put it better myself.
 

StillBallin75

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

This has been Jets incorrehant health care rant of the day, feel free to pick it apart I couldn't care less, I would never want your system in a million years.

Yeah it was incoherent alright, LOL.
 

Jetboogieman

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

Yeah it was incoherent alright, LOL.

Often times my brain moves faster then my fingers so I gotta get out what I can before my thoughts run away :2razz:
 

StillBallin75

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

Often times my brain moves faster then my fingers so I gotta get out what I can before my thoughts run away :2razz:

I totally agree with you about the profit part.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

The problem is, that your system is not voluntary, it's forced. And that is unacceptable.

That is where you are so wrong. Nothing is forced. If you dont want the public healthcare, the fine pay your own way. Just dont expect a "refund" on what you and your family (parents included) have paid into the system over many years. That money will go to others or to police and fire fighters or something else in the public domain. You are obligated to pay your taxes, but you can not decide what those taxes are used for. That is just about the only "forced" thing there is, and that is not dependent on a UHC system or a PRPS (private run people suffering) system.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

No secret that I'm a Conservative. But this is one issue where I stand with Obama.

If you're poor in America, you get free healthcare. Taxpayers are already paying for that. If your employer provides your health insurance, even though most likely you have to pay something toward it, you don't even know how much it costs. If your employer doesn't provide healthcare, in all likelihood, you don't have any insurance....be you poor, lower-middle, middle or upper-middle class. Individual healthcare insurance is very expensive...there are built-in exclusions to where sometimes it seems like the insurance companies are excluding the skin and all its contents.

I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. As such, I have always provided my own healthcare insurance. When I finally left American Family Insurance a few years ago and went into my state's ICHIP plan, I was paying AF $850 a month. Who can afford that? Well, I had to because without it I would have been homeless in the streets. Now I'm paying $640 a month and very grateful that my state subsidizes my insurance thru BCBS/ICHIP.

As an entrepreneur, because I could afford insurance, my company created at least a dozen jobs in addition to my own. Entrepreneurs are good for the economy.

How many would-be entrepreneurs are stuck in their 9 to 5's because they can't afford their own health insurance? Or -- because they have pre-existing conditions that preclude their even buying insurance at any cost? Plenty. Plenty!!

While I would absolutely love to see a $500 or $1000 mandatory deductible for health insurance plans (mine is $5,200), I think our government did the right thing. We need everyone sharing the healthcare burden. We're already sharing the burden for the poor. We need to help everyone.

I don't think the issue is whether or not our current healthcare system is acceptable. The question is how to make it better. Some would argue health insurance is so expensive because of government regulations and mandates. Others believe government needs more involvement. Also, the idea of insurance has changed. I should get insurance in case I need a very expensive procedure, not a checkup at the doctors. The big thing that needed to be addressed was rising healthcare costs. The Affordable Health Care Reform Bill did not adequately address it.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I support the idea of "universal health care". I believe every person should have serious medical procedures covered.

That said I see some major problems having such a system in the US. First I believe "Obamacare" is unconstitutional and just a horrible piece of legislature overall.

Secondly I have no and I mean ZERO faith in our federal governments ability to implement such a system without lowering standards or increasing expense, most likely both.

Thirdly I believe the burden will be largely placed on the wealthy to pay for such a system. I am pretty sick and tired of our society demanding more and more and continually expect the same folks to pay for it all. I personally am for a set flat tax % across the board regardless of wages. Everyone one makes use of federal systems and everyone should pay for them.

And last, I do not think the system should cover minor illnesses and should be limited to more serious illnesses or injurys only. People love to abuse systems and I feel, left unchecked, the health care system would be rife with abusers aka dont be coming into the ER with a stumped toe, ect.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

Well written Baralis.
Some people have a hard time separating their heart from their head.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

No secret that I'm a Conservative. But this is one issue where I stand with Obama.

If you're poor in America, you get free healthcare. Taxpayers are already paying for that.
That's actually a really good point. The US is basically the only wealthy Nation that doesn't provide a public coverage universally, although we have a type we provide to the poor and Government employees. It's the working middle-class, who might not be covered by their employer, who don't get covered.

I'd be in favor of a co-op coverage that users pay into, that was a really good idea until the specter of Sarah-Palin-Murder-Panels reared their fictional head. Not sure how Medicare murders old people and mentally disabled kids, but apparently if we had co-ops... oh, the horror.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I like how the OP makes a declarative that "nobody has a right to health care" as if this is some sort of universal, unchangeable truth and isn't entirely arbitrary like every other right.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I disagree. I believe that we have the right to treatment and should not be denied treatment due to financial means. In our society we try to value human life. It would be an atrocity to let someone die because they can't pay for a medical procedure or for a medicine. Healthcare is a necessity. I know private insurance is something you purchase, but the structure of it is similar to that of a nationalized healthcare system. Essentially, with an insurance plan you have people paying money into a pool, and when someone on the plan requires treatment that money is given to them according to their policy. The problem is that insurance companies are profits motivated, not consumer motivated. A nationalized healthcare system would be similar, as everyone pays a tax into a pool, and treatment is paid for based on needs. The missing equation here is the profits, as insurance would become a public service and not a for profit enterprise. From my experience with insurance companies, after the first of the year they all raised premiums and decreased coverage benefits (at least on the pharmaceutical side of things). They make tons of money at the expense of people who must pay money they don't have for procedures that they need to live.

Basically, I believe healthcare is a right. Human life is valuable, and we shouldn't allow someone to die because they can't financially pay for a necessary procedure or medicine. Insurance companies run a for profit service that focuses on income instead of customer care. A national system would reduce the profits from the equation and the focus would be on patient care (in an ideal scenario, I do acknowledge the wrong and broken systems in other nations).

A right cannot confer obligation on another for you to exercise said right. UHC is enforced obligation to others. And that is wrong.
 

Jetboogieman

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

A right cannot confer obligation on another for you to exercise said right. UHC is enforced obligation to others. And that is wrong.

We have universal health care here in Canada.

You don't have to sign up for it if you don't want to.

Taxes are what you pay to live in a civilized society.

You don't like it, pack up your **** and go live in the Mountains of the rockies where you can have all the "freedom" you want.
 

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

I like how the OP makes a declarative that "nobody has a right to health care" as if this is some sort of universal, unchangeable truth and isn't entirely arbitrary like every other right.

This is because you lack understand of what a RIGHT is.

A RIGHT does not confer obligation on another for you to exercise said right.

You have the RIGHT to free speech. No one is obligated to provide you the means to free speech.

You have the RIGHT to own a gun. No one is obligated to provide you anything for you to own a gun.

See the trend here?

You have the RIGHT to assemble. No one has to provide you with anything.
 

Renae

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Re: Why Universal Healthcare is wrong; A discussion for my liberal/progressive friend

We have universal health care here in Canada.

You don't have to sign up for it if you don't want to.

Taxes are what you pay to live in a civilized society.

You don't like it, pack up your **** and go live in the Mountains of the rockies where you can have all the "freedom" you want.

I note you completely avoided the point, just attacked me with silliness. I'll accept your admitted defeat.
 
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