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Why These Women Don't Strap Up I'll Never Know

flogger

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She had reason to be terrified. The bastard already crossed a line and showed her he would stop at nothing to torment her. If ever someone needed to take a threat serious and strap up, it was her.

Yes but lets get this kind of incident into context. The wider world (yes even the US) isn't like that. Such events are extremely rare
 

Visbek

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Police respond to incidents that have already happened. They don't prevent them. Only the individual person has a chance at preventing it, even if it is a small one.
The guy had already been arrested on a variety of charges. He was released on bond. He had an ankle monitor, which failed to alert police when he cut it off.

Law enforcement and the justice system can't prevent every crime, but it sure looks like this one was preventable.
 

Aunt Spiker

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I think it's logical for women to arm themselves and learn to shoot---and shoot well.

Generally speaking - yes, people should know how to defend or protect themselves.

What makes people assume she didn't? Perhaps she did. Being realistic? There's nothing to support the belief that she didn't know how to handle a firearm already (clearly they owned guns, more than one, as a couple - and the phrase goes 'couples that own together, shoot together. She might have been well versed for all we know).

Aside that, the next logical route is a protection order. But that would have been useless, too, because it would have relied on the other person being a law abiding citizen first and foremost. They're just a piece of paper and mean nothing. Women who have protection orders against an assailant are killed often.

But there's more to protection than equating 'protection=owning/shooting a firearm'. Protection also means putting yourself in a safer environment / away from danger.

Him in jail was supposed to be protection FOR HER and for society as a whole.

I think what would have been best for her was to put herself into a Safeway home and drop off the radar the MOMENT he was set free (that is, assuming they followed the letter of the law and informed her that he was let go).

She should never have been found by him after he was out.
 

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EXACTLY. That was my point, there, behind turning that 2nd statement into a what-if statement, to show the senselessness of it. I was being a bit cynical with it. (though I don't think you realized that was my point, either).

What should be talked about are what can people do differently IN THE FUTURE - quantifiable changes. The list of absurd what ifs can go on forever. Why waste the time, here?

I understand that. You're addressing what can be changed in the future so it is not an issue vs us talking what can we do now. Unfortunately, we can only deal in current realities, on an individual basis, will working for that change. The reality is, it's not likely to change anytime soon and even if there was an a change that matched up perfectly with whatever you think it should be, it won't be 100%. Nothing is 100%. Just like being armed won't protect you 100%. So what do we have left? Doing what we can do for ourselves as individuals while also working the other end to effect change in the legal system.

To an address an underlying theme, I can't fathom why women are not more pro-gun. The gun is called "the great equalizer" for a reason. A 60 yo lady has a chance against a 25 yo 300 lb NFL lineman, if she has a gun. If she doesn't, there is no chance. That extends across the board, as a general power dynamic between men and women. Women, in general, physically don't have much of a chance against men. However, women can be just as damn fine of a marksman as any man.
 

Fishking

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The guy had already been arrested on a variety of charges. He was released on bond. He had an ankle monitor, which failed to alert police when he cut it off.

Law enforcement and the justice system can't prevent every crime, but it sure looks like this one was preventable.

There is only a certain amount of resources and various systems are imperfect.
 

flogger

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The US is a much more violent country than the UK.

Ooo rah somebody has finally conceded that point :thumbs:

Why that is can be debated. However, one fact stands tall. Most of our violent crime is committed by two groups of minorities: Blacks and Hispanics. If you take their numbers out of the equation, our rates are probably not much different than those in your country.

Its vastly different . Even your 'whitest' state (Montana) has a murder rate more than 5 times ours and a gun death rate more than 40 times. Only 0.67% of Montanas inhabitants are black
 

flogger

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I'd say that you were more than old fashioned.....you want people to be sheep and adore Nanny Govt.

My wife is the sweetest person I know, doesn't smoke, drink alcohol or swear....no ugly tats or body piercings at all....and always looks for the positive in people. But, unlike bloody liberals, she's a Conservative Republican and would have no qualms about shooting a POS who abused her, or someone else, in her presence. She is comfortable with any gun, handguns, rifles, or shotguns.
I'd imagine that would scare the crap out of you.

Sadly the data shows that POS is far more likely to kill her
 

Aunt Spiker

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I understand that. You're addressing what can be changed in the future so it is not an issue vs us talking what can we do now. Unfortunately, we can only deal in current realities, on an individual basis, will working for that change. The reality is, it's not likely to change anytime soon and even if there was an a change that matched up perfectly with whatever you think it should be, it won't be 100%. Nothing is 100%. Just like being armed won't protect you 100%. So what do we have left? Doing what we can do for ourselves as individuals while also working the other end to effect change in the legal system.

To an address an underlying theme, I can't fathom why women are not more pro-gun. The gun is called "the great equalizer" for a reason. A 60 yo lady has a chance against a 25 yo 300 lb NFL lineman, if she has a gun. If she doesn't, there is no chance. That extends across the board, as a general power dynamic between men and women. Women, in general, physically don't have much of a chance against men. However, women can be just as damn fine of a marksman as any man.

Post 103 of mine really covers 'what to do differently' which can be applied to others and my self (I have an abusive ex out there, too).

Her tragic situation doesn't mean SHE wasn't pro-2nd. I think that's essential to understand, here. All elements I've read on this case point to the possibility that she was.

As a survivor of abuse, the best thing I did for myself was taking a self-protection class. You don't NEED to own or be good at handling a gun to DEFEND yourself from an assailant. You need to be quick thinking and take evasive measures. That'll be much more likely to save your ass.
 

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Sorry, but... No, it isn't.

While there can be some warning signs, most people don't realize they are in an abusive relationship until they are... in an abusive relationship.

It's easy to play the tough guy/girl and say "no way I'd put up with that" or "don't get into an abusive relationship." It's difficult to actually be a person in an abusive relationship, and figure out what to do about it.

You're talking about certain psychological aspects of abusive relationships vs the reality of them. Nothing is easy but that doesn't negate the reality of what you need to do to protect yourself as much as is reasonably possible.
 

calamity

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Yes but lets get this kind of incident into context. The wider world (yes even the US) isn't like that. Such events are extremely rare

...until it isn't. Point is, she knew she was in trouble, the kidnapping showed her that much. She also knew, or should have known, that the buttwipe husband would not be in jail forever. She should have bought a gun and learned how to shoot it.

This lady did.

https://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008...-who-came-back-to-rape-her-for-a-second-time/

If you count on the law to protect you...you're ****ed.
 

MickeyW

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Sadly the data shows that POS is far more likely to kill her

Sadly, you don't know what you are talking about. Your data has many holes in it and one size does not fit all. And anyone taking one of my courses will have a distinct advantage, because it's not just about using a gun. I teach a plethora of self defense tactics.
Situational awareness, mindset and deliberation, are all key to a successful outcome.
Just because you spent some time in the RAF, doesn't mean you know a lot about personal defense. From your rabid anti-gun posts, I doubt you learned much of anything on that subject.
 

calamity

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Ooo rah somebody has finally conceded that point :thumbs:



Its vastly different . Even your 'whitest' state (Montana) has a murder rate more than 5 times ours and a gun death rate more than 40 times. Only 0.67% of Montanas inhabitants are black

link on montana v uk?
 

flogger

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...until it isn't. Point is, she knew she was in trouble, the kidnapping showed her that much. She also knew, or should have known, that the buttwipe husband would not be in jail forever. She should have bought a gun and learned how to shoot it.

This lady did.

https://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008...-who-came-back-to-rape-her-for-a-second-time/

If you count on the law to protect you...you're ****ed.

The fact that you have to go back to 2008 to trawl up this kind of thing tells its own story and does not negate the statistical facts of the matter . Like I said before these sort of events are extremely rare and hardly constitute a pretext for militarising the entire female gender against the male
 

calamity

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Generally speaking - yes, people should know how to defend or protect themselves.

What makes people assume she didn't? Perhaps she did. Being realistic? There's nothing to support the belief that she didn't know how to handle a firearm already (clearly they owned guns, more than one, as a couple - and the phrase goes 'couples that own together, shoot together. She might have been well versed for all we know).

Aside that, the next logical route is a protection order. But that would have been useless, too, because it would have relied on the other person being a law abiding citizen first and foremost. They're just a piece of paper and mean nothing. Women who have protection orders against an assailant are killed often.

But there's more to protection than equating 'protection=owning/shooting a firearm'. Protection also means putting yourself in a safer environment / away from danger.

Him in jail was supposed to be protection FOR HER and for society as a whole.

I think what would have been best for her was to put herself into a Safeway home and drop off the radar the MOMENT he was set free (that is, assuming they followed the letter of the law and informed her that he was let go).

She should never have been found by him after he was out.

It's safe to say she wasn't armed and trained. Had she been, dude would not have gotten to her twice. This was certainly a good time to shoot first and ask questions later...especially after the first time.
 

Rico Suave

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Under my reasonable proposal

1) the guy wouldn't have been allowed out
2) His house and cars etc. would be scoured for guns which would be seized and destroyed along with any ammo
3) He would be blacklisted on a national gun registry.
4) Anyone who sold him a gun black market would be subject to the same sentence he would have got

A person who is armed has a very low probability of fending off another person who is armed and determined to kill them (see Chris Kyle). Gun ownership is not the answer to self defense. Situational awareness is.
 
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flogger

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link on montana v uk?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_the_United_States_by_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Montana gun homicides per 100,000 = 1.2

UK gun homicides per 100,000 = 0.06

Sorry for my inaccuracy the comparison viz Montana is actually far worse with some 20 times more people shot dead in Montana per capita

Overall rates of homicide from all causes per 100,000 UK = 0.9 Montana = 2.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
 

Rico Suave

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_the_United_States_by_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Montana gun homicides per 100,000 = 1.2

UK gun homicides per 100,000 = 0.06

Sorry for my inaccuracy the comparison viz Montana is actually far worse

Overall rates of homicide from all causes per 100,000 UK = 0.9 Montana = 2.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

wow isn't the UK more diverse, and densely populated and better of economically?
 

Rico Suave

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Well about the same/ yes/ and perhaps slightly :wink:

I've spent a while in London and Billings. Billings was almost exclusively white. London not so much.
 

Aunt Spiker

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It's safe to say she wasn't armed and trained. Had she been, dude would not have gotten to her twice. This was certainly a good time to shoot first and ask questions later...especially after the first time.

Oh? So gun slingers never shoot and kill each other? It happens all the time.

Look - just because someone owns a gun or knows how to shoot doesn't bar them from becoming a victim of someone else's heinous intentions. IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY.
 

Rico Suave

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Oh? So gun slingers never shoot and kill each other? It happens all the time.

Look - just because someone owns a gun or knows how to shoot doesn't bar them from becoming a victim of someone else's heinous intentions. IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY.

In most cases it makes you and your family and neighbors LESS safe.
 

flogger

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Under my reasonable proposal

1) the guy wouldn't have been allowed out
2) His house and cars etc. would be scoured for guns which would be seized and destroyed along with any ammo
3) He would be blacklisted on a national gun registry.
4) Anyone who sold him a gun black market would be subject to the same sentence he would have got

A person who is armed has a very low probability of fending off another person who is armed and determined to kill them (see Chris Kyle). Gun ownership is not the answer to self defense. Situational awareness is.

The simple fact is the perp knows he is going to rob you long before you do ergo he will always have the drop on you with his gun.

Now you you could try a Dirty Harry but the odds are you will either be disarmed or shot in the process of drawing your weapon which explains why people who carry guns are some 4.5 times more likely to be shot than those that don't
 

calamity

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Oh? So gun slingers never shoot and kill each other? It happens all the time.

Look - just because someone owns a gun or knows how to shoot doesn't bar them from becoming a victim of someone else's heinous intentions. IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY.

Not having one certainly guarantees you'll die when a psycho comes calling though.
 

Rico Suave

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Not having one certainly guarantees you'll die when a psycho comes calling though.

No it doesn't stop watching Charles Branson movies. Situational awareness is what is important.
 

flogger

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I've spent a while in London and Billings. Billings was almost exclusively white. London not so much.

Some neighbourhoods of London like Brixton or Southall are almost entirely black or Asian. Needless to say these aren't exactly tourist areas :wink:

Many of the poorer Northern industrial towns have very large ethnic minorities often outnumbering the whites
 
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