Let's let them make the sacrifice they need to make to create a prosperous future for themselves in a democratic setting. Let's not intervene.
Hello.
So last night I was thinking about democracy in the wake of so much news about Egypt on dw.de (a very good news site) or euronews (if you have 5min/day to watch the news, pick euronews)... Westerwelle says that Egypt may be on the brink of civil war... etc.
.....g..... Are we not, by interfering, denying the Egyptian people the chance to truly appreciate democracy? After all, the aforementioned nations and many others, who have democracy, usually have it at a cost of blood and lives. As tragic as it is today, do we not hold the democratic freedoms we have today due to that sacrifice dearer? Do we not appreciate democracy more because many died for it, teaching us a lesson that democracy is worth dying for? If everything would be done sanitary and insulated from all harm, then wouldn't that diminish the appreciation of something? If it comes easy. if it comes with "help". Surely if the desire of the Egyptian people is strong enough to want a democracy, they will have it. And the deaths of the people who fight for it will consolidate the democratic legacy that follows for centuries. They're allowed to stumble, they stumbled once. Others stumbled more times. Let's let them make the sacrifice they need to make to create a prosperous future for themselves in a democratic setting. Let's not intervene.
At least that's what I thought waking up this morning. This was pretty much my train of thought.
How do I know this? Because we always do Europe's dirty work. If Europe is in there then it means the U.S. is also in there. They don't do anything without us because we are the bull dog.
Don't kid yourself... Egypt is under watchful eyes. I'm not saying I support it, but it's just the political reality of what's happening.
This said, the Europeans will continue to free ride the situation. I do not think that is good.
With all that we are doing in the Middle East to alter the political landscape, the last thing the White House is going to allow is for the Muslim brotherhood to rule Egypt. It could actually be beneficial to the Egyptians, but it won't be beneficial to the U.S. or Israel, so it's simply not going to happen.
Interesting you would like Euronews and DW. I do not know DW very well. Euronews I do know and compare continuously with CNBC, Al Jazeera, RT, France24, Phoenix, BBC or ZDF. It is not my preferred network. What do you like about it?
As to the topic you rightly point out, that democracy did not appear fixed and ready ex nihilo. Peoples experimented over the centuries and slowly a number of Instruments emerged that in different combinations are considered democratic. Now, we could discuss, which mixes are more and which less effective for the citizen, which give him more goods and which mixes tend to answer the needs of smaller groups of citizens. But there are certain rules that we know quite well to work and others that always lead to problems. We watched, while the first election was carried out, though, it was totally obvious, that it was defective and had a very high probability of failure. Some developments could pose real problems for us and especially Europe. Do we really want to watch, while Egypt becomes a failed state, if there is anything we can do to prevent it?
Wilson did not force his allies to make Weimar work and the allies did not remove Hitler even though it was becoming obvious, that things were getting out of control. Those two little mistakes ran into 60 Millions Dead. Europe was thrown back by decades. I do not know. But should we sit on the fence? True. After WW2 the Germans implemented a constitution that is democratically weak in very many aspects and does a shoddy job of protecting the Bürger and is beginning to unravel. But it has kept the peace albeit with a massive US presence and until 1989 the clear and present threat of extinction should the US have left. Do you really think that intervention was without merit?
The Europeans are in the habit of waiting till the US acts. I personally do not think that this free riding can go on much longer. There is no way the US can go on paying for the semi security in the international arena.
In worst case scenarios Suez could be closed or Isreal attacked. That would be more than a pity for Europe and would cause us all sorts of malaise.
Now, I am not proposing any specific action. We should think about, what steps make sense. But I really do not think we should just let things happen.
...unless the religious win that is!
It has been the unofficial policy since post-WII reconstruction of Europe. The U.S. does the dirty work and Europe tags along, and then gets to claim victory and bad mouth us afterward.
The islamists won last time. Now, a year later, there are riots in the street and the country is on the brink of civil war.
-- The islamists won last time. Now, a year later, there are riots in the street and the country is on the brink of civil war.
-- bad mouth us afterward.
National bickering aside --
I am not saying that we shouldn't help them out with advice. But we shouldn't intervene aggressively. If Egypt sinks in a civil war between the secularists and the islamists, though highly unlikely, we shouldn't take sides. We took sides and aided the libyan rebels, and now where is Libya? An islamist state with a sharia constitution. We congratulated Egypt last time around and look where they ended up now.
Let's not take sides. Very simple. Not on one side, not on the other, not support a third option, not as peacekeeping forces. We just keep out and when the fighting and the turmoil is over and a government is instated, if it's a friendly government that is an islamist anti-democratic govt, we should support it. If it is an islamist govt, we cut all ties to it.
islam has been the dominant religion and enforced the mainstream culture there for over 1000 years. We should stop trying to believe that we know how to fix such damage. If the people of Egypt want democracy and freedom bad enough, they'll make it and they'll get it on their own terms and if we like what we see, we can be friends. But we shouldn't intervene, just watch.
That is sort of like letting riots in slums run their course and supporting Big Mean as legitimate mayor, when he wins.
Personally, I think Egypt is not ready for external intervention. We've all been there in some form to get democratic elections going and they elected a party with little concern for anyone outside it's ranks. The problem was democracy as understood was just getting the largest number of votes to thus hold power at the expense of everyone else.
Egypt does not have a "whole nation" ideal of democracy yet, the basic concept is still too new. The west now has the choice of supporting the military or supporting a process highly likely to see another Muslim Brotherhood candidate elected. I say we (EU) stay out until the shoots of cross religious / cross tribal politics starts to foment.
If we have to be involved in the ME, we pick our fights and ground more carefully than we did in Egypt.
Well, you just had to get two swipes in at us first before hiding behind a self proclaimed truce. Anyhow Syria disproves your little theory.
Should they be left again there will be another freaking civil war a year later yet again! Religion is not meant to be in the government! That is the throne of democracy instead.
They have the right to overturn their government as many times as they see fit. Religion is not meant to be in the government, I agree with you. I think Egypt should have a secular government and keep islam out of politics. But it's up to them, the people of Egypt, to do this. It's not up to america, israel or europe. I believe that if we intervene, bad things will happen.
Like what?
Like what kind of government or like what kind of bad things? You need to be more specific.
Only if the slums in the city are part of a tribal society. If there is a rule of law where such behavior is illegal, then no, the riots are contained and disbanded.
....
As long as there will be protests from citizens who have no guns, there won't be a civil war. When they do get guns... it won't be a protest anymore.
No problem. I meant what kind of bad things are you concerned with?
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