Why the Death Penalty is a Good Thing

[Bodi]

I never said one couldn't make a logical argument for the death penalty. I said that affirmation of the high value of human life does not logically or morally follow from the use of the death penalty. And it doesn't. No matter how much you want to be, it's not true. Affirmation of the high value of human life would mean that we protect all life and cherish it, even the lives of those whom have acted against others. To affirm the high value of human life, emphasis would be placed on rehabilitation and counseling, not death. There are many reasons why some people could still support the death penalty, and some may even construct a logical sort of argument for such. However, affirmation of the high value of human life is not one of the things which logically flows from the use of the death penalty. It is in fact counter to the very act.

Oh, OK. Because you said so... I understand and completely agree with you now. Thanks!

 

[Bodi]

Excessively punishing someone for possible crimes they may commit in the future is also makes for very bad policy. Emotion should not enter the fray when talking of proper government actions against the rights and liberties of the individual.

It is not excessively punishing them for a possible crime that they may commit in the future, it is punishing them for the crime that they just committed.

 

[Bodi]

Maybe if you took the time to read, you'd see. The original post, to which you agree with, was a personal recount. The wish to seek the death penalty was sought on emotion. Furthermore saying that at least that guy won't kill again is using possible future crimes to excuse the granted punishments.

So before you try to get smarmy over there, perhaps you should take the time to read posts before running your mouth and looking like the fool.

his emotional and logical reasons can end up with the same response. Nothing illogical about it Ikari.
The one looking the fool is the one that insists that they are right because they say so...

 

[Your Star]

Death penalty is dumb. Taking one innocent live away from a faulty conviction isn't worth it. Let em rot in a cell by themselves for the rest of their lives. Thats worse anyways.

 

[mikhail]

The fact that innocent people have been killed is enough i feel to make the death penaulty wrong.Imagine what that means that an innocent person has been held by the government and killed.

 

[Layla_Z]

The Death Penalty is a consequence. End of story.

Those that commit murder and rape and such forfeit their lives as a matter of fact, not as an emotional vengence or anything else, their life is not worth anything, so it is ended. Done.

The fact is, that by exacting the highest penalty for the taking of human life we are affirming the highest value of human life.

Whether or not the death penalty is a consequence does not matter. Criminals are not the type of people who think through the consequences of their behavior. They are also not bothered by thinking about right and wrong. I don't avoid murder because I might get the death penalty, I avoid it because it is wrong.

I really don't understand how you can say that killing people is showing we value life.

 

[Magill]

Your poistion seems contradictory to your "name".

My only problem with the death penalty is that far too many times, they have killed someone who was innocent. That can't be fixed.

 

[Goshin]

Your poistion seems contradictory to your "name".

My only problem with the death penalty is that far too many times, they have killed someone who was innocent. That can't be fixed.

I've been through a death penalty case, two of them actually, from arrest and first trial through innumerable appeals, to final execution 11 and 15 years after the crime, respectively.

There are so many opportunities for someone facing capital punishment to present mitigating evidence or technical faults in his trial that I suspect "wrongful executions" are probably not as common as many people think.

Given that prison sentences do not invoke all the automatic reviews and appeals that capital punishment does, I expect we've put MANY MORE people in prison for long terms wrongfully, than cap-punishment.

There have been cases where a man has served 25 years, then been proven innocent and set free. Think about 25 years in prison... you can't give that man back the 25 years of his life. So you set him free NOW... now after he's spent 25 years adapting to an environment of strict rules, strict guards, and criminal neighbors and bunkmates. How can you compensate a man for such a loss? You'd have to give him a ten-million-dollar portfolio to live well off of and even then I don't think it really rates.

Our justice system isn't perfect. Once in a while the innocent are punished; VERY FREQUENTLY the guilty go free or suffer a penalty that is tiny compared to their offenses. At present our system is weighted in favor of the accused; if you want to weight it even further in that direction, we'll be like the UK where a man who raped, tortured and murdered a small child walked free in a mere six years.

No, thank you.

 

[Caine]

Fair enough thats not the point of the thread, take my jabs at you lightly, it is the internet.

Are you suggesting that the point of the thread is whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent?

Bodi created the thread... if Bodi said the deterrence is not the point who are you to claim otherwise?

 

[Orion]

The argument that preserving the death penalty shows that we value life has to be one of the most ironic arguments I think I've heard.

I don't care if all of the evidence lines up against a murderer and we know with 100% certainty that he/she did it. I do not support state murder.

 

[Goshin]

The argument that preserving the death penalty shows that we value life has to be one of the most ironic arguments I think I've heard.

I don't care if all of the evidence lines up against a murderer and we know with 100% certainty that he/she did it. I do not support state murder.

I don't support state murder either. I support society, acting in the collective known as the Criminal Justice Sytem, executing those who have taken a human life with premeditated malice and a lack of any shred of justification.

 

[Orion]

I don't support state murder either. I support society, acting in the collective known as the Criminal Justice Sytem, executing those who have taken a human life with premeditated malice and a lack of any shred of justification.

I think your arbitrary values placed on life are immoral, just like Iran's stoning of this woman is immoral. The funny thing is that you think you're right and Iran is wrong, but people in Iran might not see it that way.

You will never get collective consent for execution in the criminal justice system because people like me will never give our consent. I do not support your revenge.

 

[Mell]

Call it what you like. There are some things for which the right and proper punishment, the only punishment that fits the crime, is death. I'm glad that most of the states in my nation recognize this fact and haven't given in to this PC crap.

It is called being civilized, rather than PC crap.

 

[Mell]

I The funny thing is that you think you're right and Iran is wrong, but people in Iran might not see it that way.

What is funny, is that somebody would make a sweeping statement like this. People in Iran have varying attitudes and opinions. The ones who insist on stonings and such, are a very conservative and religious section of society. Apparently, this section makes up 30% of the Iranian population.

 

[Orion]

What is funny, is that somebody would make a sweeping statement like this. People in Iran have varying attitudes and opinions. The ones who insist on stonings and such, are a very conservative and religious section of society. Apparently, this section makes up 30% of the Iranian population.

I'm aware of that. My point is that it's unjust to point the finger at another sovereign nation for its social problems, yet fail to acknowledge the shortcomings of similar systems in ones own country. Stoning is not okay, but gassing, electrocuting, or injecting a prisoner to death is okay? The whole thing is barbaric. The only difference in the minds of supporters is that their cause is more just. Like no one has made that argument before. :roll:

They expect justice for their own personal pet issues, yet support barbarity that is unjustifiable in the eyes of many.

Yes... let's just white wash the argument as "PC crap". That is how we handle mature debates in the modern world these days. Even the goons in government are behaving that way. Just put your fingers in your ears and shout "la la la" like no one is there, and just tell yourselves that the opposition is wrong and your side is right. No logic is necessary.

 

[Glinda]

I think, the important thing is, that murders, rapists... are kept away from society, so they cant do further harm. I dont see why it would be important to kill them.

Because violent criminals, murderers, and rapists can and DO continue to commit violent crimes, murder, and rape while incarcerated. They can and DO do further harm.

A study of four Midwestern states in 2000 found that about 1 in 5 inmates experiences some form of pressured or coerced sexual conduct while incarcerated (Struckman-Johnson & Struckman-Johnson, 2000). --Inside Prison

And these are just the rapes we know about; many are never reported.

In 2001, Human Rights Watch estimated that at least 140,000 inmates in the United States had been raped while incarcerated. --Prison Rape

Further, it's simply not true that life in prison without parole for violent criminals and murderers serves just as well as the death penalty. That statement works ONLY if you ignore all the murders that criminals commit within prison walls when they assault/rape/kill prison guards, attorneys, clergy, visitors, and other inmates.

Most striking is the fact that inmate deaths from homicide represent roughly two percent of all inmate deaths. Hispanic inmates had the highest homicide rate (7 per 100,000 inmates) followed by white inmates (5 per 100,000 inmates) and black inmates (2 per 100,000 inmates). --The American Correctional Environment

That's 14 in-prison murders per 100,000 annually that could potentially be avoided. Do you know how many people are incarcerated in this country? About 2.5 million. Now, I don't give a hoot if a murderer kills another murderer in prison (in fact, I'm all for it), but your suggestion that being incarcerated = "they can't do further harm" is simply not true.

 

[Orion]

That's 14 in-prison murders per 100,000 annually that could potentially be avoided. Do you know how many people are incarcerated in this country? About 2.5 million. Now, I don't give a hoot if a murderer kills another murderer in prison (in fact, I'm all for it), but your suggestion that being incarcerated = "they can't do further harm" is simply not true.

Those murders happen partly because of corruption in the corrections system. Inmates are supposed to be supervised 24/7 so how do murders, especially unsolved ones, get to take place? The guards are corrupt and can be paid off.

Murdering murderers is an ethical hypocrisy and if they are continuing their behaviors behind bars then all it means is that the system needs reform to prevent them from doing it. That is no excuse for taking more lives.

So much for the good Christian attitude.

 

[Glinda]

Inmates are supposed to be supervised 24/7

In theory, yes. But the reality is, we have neither the manpower, the funding, nor the social will to give each and every prisoner his/her own personal babysitter. There are plenty of prison situations where guards are not immediately at hand to witness or stop prison violence, all it takes is one quick thrust with a sharpened toothbrush to do someone in. To pretend prison guards can stop every instance of this is simply self-delusion.

so how do murders, especially unsolved ones, get to take place? The guards are corrupt and can be paid off.

I'm sure there are corrupt prison guards, but that has nothing to do with the fact that we have neither the manpower, the funding, nor the social will to give each prisoner a personal babysitter. Again, it's pretty hard to stop someone from stabbing/killing someone else with a sharpened toothbrush unless you're standing right next to them, and often not even then.

if they are continuing their behaviors behind bars then all it means is that the system needs reform to prevent them from doing it. That is no excuse for taking more lives.

Oh, I'm the first to agree that our criminal systems need serious overhaul. If I had my way, proven violent criminals and murderers would get this kind of treatment:

lock him forever in a small cell with no light and nothing but a drain hole at the bottom. Once a day a bowl of bland food and a jug of water are put in the cell; no one speaks to him. He gets no letters and sends none, speaks to no one, sees no one, has nothing to do but sit and stare at the walls and think until he dies. That would be as close to an equivalent payment as you could get without execution, but it would not be permitted as it would be deemed "inhumane".

So much for the good Christian attitude.

1. What exactly is "the good Christian attitude?" Is that the "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing? Unrepentant murderers and violent criminals are enemies of, and a known danger to, society. Unrepentant murderers and violent criminals have already sealed their fates by doing unto others (murder/rape/violence) that which they would NOT have others do unto them. They don't deserve a second bite at that apple.

2. From what I've seen throughout my life, the "Christian attitude" leaves a LOT to be desired.

3. I'm proud to say that Christianity has no place in my life.

 

[Orion]

In theory, yes. But the reality is, we have neither the manpower, the funding, nor the social will to give each and every prisoner his/her own personal babysitter. There are plenty of prison situations where guards are not immediately at hand to witness or stop prison violence, all it takes is one quick thrust with a sharpened toothbrush to do someone in. To pretend prison guards can stop every instance of this is simply self-delusion.

Okay, so are you in turn suggesting that execution is a convenience because we are lazy in enforcing supervision and quality control of prison guards?

I'm sure there are corrupt prison guards, but that has nothing to do with the fact that we have neither the manpower, the funding, nor the social will to give each prisoner a personal babysitter. Again, it's pretty hard to stop someone from stabbing/killing someone else with a sharpened toothbrush unless you're standing right next to them, and often not even then.

Last time I checked, inmates who commit secondary crimes while incarcerated tend to end up in solitary confinement or are transferred to facilities for long term isolation. There is already a mechanism for dealing with these high risk criminals and they are generally segregated from the rest of the inmate population.

It's the unsolved murders that implicate corruption of the prison system... when guards get paid off to turn a blind eye while murders and rapes take place. I would rather see reforms attempted before turning to execution.

The issue you raise about funding is a good point. The prison system is becoming increasingly privatized and so that means corporations who are primarily self-serving and profit-seeking will aim to minimize costs as much as possible. This means reductions in guards and in turn supervision. And we're sitting here wondering why prison violence is on the increase? There is less oversight.

1. What exactly is "the good Christian attitude?" Is that the "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing? Unrepentant murderers and violent criminals are enemies of, and a known danger to, society. Unrepentant murderers and violent criminals have already sealed their fates by doing unto others (murder/rape/violence) that which they would NOT have others do unto them. They don't deserve a second bite at that apple.

Who are you to decide who does and doesn't deserve a second chance? You aren't God. You are just one person with one moral position.

Think about what Christ himself would say. I doubt he would advocate execution given that he befriended the lowest levels of society. Our modern Christians are so unChrist-like.

2. From what I've seen throughout my life, the "Christian attitude" leaves a LOT to be desired.

I agree.

3. I'm proud to say that Christianity has no place in my life.

I only brought it up because there are Christians who are pro-death penalty and it seems contradictory to me.

 

[Mell]

I only brought it up because there are Christians who are pro-death penalty and it seems contradictory to me.

Why does it seem contradictory? The bible has lots of approving references to the death penalty.

 

[Mell]

In 2. From what I've seen throughout my life, the "Christian attitude" leaves a LOT to be desired.

3. I'm proud to say that Christianity has no place in my life.

Indeed! Christianity is no longer spiritual. I dont think it has been, since Jesus was executed, and no longer there to steer it.

Christianity these days is more political. ie It is an attempt to drag civilization back a couple of hundred years.

 

[Goshin]

Indeed! Christianity is no longer spiritual. I dont think it has been, since Jesus was executed, and no longer there to steer it.

Christianity these days is more political. ie It is an attempt to drag civilization back a couple of hundred years.

If you're going to turn this thread into a lets-bash-Christians-hatefest, y'all can all bite me.

There IS a difference between stoning a woman for adultery and executing a murderer; if you can't see that I'm sorry for you, your perceptions of reality leave much to be desired.

 

[teamosil]

In theory, I am not opposed to the idea that the absolute worst of the worst deserve to die. But, unfortunately, the death penalty doesn't do that. The death penalty ends up being applied absurdly. Black people convicted of murder are like 10 times more likely to be given the death penalty than white people, people with low IQs are about 20 times more likely to get it... You can't put an exact number on such a subjective thing, but basically less charismatic people, people who don't know how to appear contrite, etc, get it far more easily. If you draw one judge you won't get it no matter what, if you draw the next judge you'll get it at the drop of a hat. It just isn't reasonably applied.

And, we get it wrong... A lot... When DNA evidence came out for example, they found that roughly 1 in 10 of the people on death row for whom there was still DNA-bearing material still on file turned out to be innocent. They didn't just turn out to find some flaw in the proof beyond a reasonable doubt mind you, but the DNA evidence actually proved them innocent.

And, it actually costs us more to put somebody to death than to lock them up for life. Massively increased security during the years they sit on death row, trial after trial after appeal after appeal, you need tons of lawyers for a death penalty case, etc.

So, while I don't take the stance that killing is always wrong no matter what somebody does, in practical reality it turns out to be a terrible idea.

 

[Caine]

The argument that preserving the death penalty shows that we value life has to be one of the most ironic arguments I think I've heard.

I don't care if all of the evidence lines up against a murderer and we know with 100% certainty that he/she did it. I do not support state murder.

Murder is the unlawful killing of someone.

Nice try to intentionally use the wrong word in order to make it sound worse?

Do you work for reuters and report on the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

 

[samsmart]

The Death Penalty is a consequence. End of story.

Those that commit murder and rape and such forfeit their lives as a matter of fact, not as an emotional vengence or anything else, their life is not worth anything, so it is ended. Done.

The fact is, that by exacting the highest penalty for the taking of human life we are affirming the highest value of human life.

What about those who suffer the Death Penalty as a consequence who never committed murder or rape?