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Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

Oh, shut up. Once again, APACHE has to find some way to blame "the left," and he's using the bodies of dead veterans to do it. Disgusting.

1. he was responding to those who argued that it was in fact "the hawks" who could be blamed.

2. Both of his claims, however you want to adjust for his intent, are nonetheless accurate. For those whose suicide is driven by combat, the distinction between what we teach them to expect and what they then have to go through is a contributing factor. Agreeably it's nowhere as bad as it was for Vietnam, especially with the "return" factor, where there is at least public support until they find out the specifics, as opposed to public abuse.

3. Military suicide rates are, in fact, an overblown "crises". Our suicide rate is lower than the civilian rates among the same population. While taking care of our people and saving them when necessary remains critical, this issue is the result of a zero-defect mindset, not an actual "epidemic".


Before anyone loses their mind over that, my first team leader in the Marine Corps killed himself, as did a former platoon sergeant from my company and a Marine who had been under me. I've dealt with the issue. But we're not f****** victims.
 
Veteran suicide rates alone do not necessarily tell us that VA care has failed. Maybe other details (such as observing that there are veterans seeking help and not getting it) demonstrate a failure, but we can't just notice a high suicide rate and then go on auto-blame mode against someone for not somehow preventing those suicides.

I think there is a mix of both here, i.e. some instances of VA care being deficient and people committing suicide while on long wait lists for help, but also I think that even with the most utopian scenario of a comprehensive array of instantaneously available world-class mental health care... we'd still see high suicide rates among veterans.

So my opinion is that yes we should be alert for possible shortcomings of VA care and think critically about how to beef it up if needed, as well as to be more vocal (both liberals and conservatives) about non-defensive military interventions in oil-rich nations.

But I also think we should be cautious not to be idiots about tossing around blame for people killing themselves.

True story. Everyone also beats up on the VA for having such a backlog (and it does suck). No one wants to talk about the dirty little original source of that backlog, which is the prevalence of people who get out and try to put in a claim for virtually every major joint, organ, you name it, planning to get free medical care and a monthly check for life.
 
Oh, shut up. Once again, APACHE has to find some way to blame "the left," and he's using the bodies of dead veterans to do it. Disgusting.

I didn't bring politics into the discussion.

BTW: Why are libs always so concerned with vets but very few have ever served ?

Why don't libs support those while they are serving in uniform instead of proclaiming they support them after they stopped wearing the uniform ?

Which brings into play that while serving in the military there was little day to day contact with libs but after their tour of duty the day to day contact with libs in the civilian world is enough to drive someone to substance abuse, chronic unemployment, homelessness and eventually suicide.

I was lucky compared to most, I was able to escape Los Angeles and fled to behind the Orange Curtain.
 
And conservatives are still supporting on invading every middle eastern country they can think of.
 
Veteran suicide rates alone do not necessarily tell us that VA care has failed. Maybe other details (such as observing that there are veterans seeking help and not getting it) demonstrate a failure, but we can't just notice a high suicide rate and then go on auto-blame mode against someone for not somehow preventing those suicides.

I think there is a mix of both here, i.e. some instances of VA care being deficient and people committing suicide while on long wait lists for help, but also I think that even with the most utopian scenario of a comprehensive array of instantaneously available world-class mental health care... we'd still see high suicide rates among veterans.

So my opinion is that yes we should be alert for possible shortcomings of VA care and think critically about how to beef it up if needed, as well as to be more vocal (both liberals and conservatives) about non-defensive military interventions in oil-rich nations.

But I also think we should be cautious not to be idiots about tossing around blame for people killing themselves.

Good post. I know personally I'm so horrified and sickened by the number of our vets committing suicide that I just can't help believing that we... citizens and government alike... have somehow let them down. Honestly, I feel personally guilty, as irrational as that may seem. :(
 
I didn't bring politics into the discussion.

BTW: Why are libs always so concerned with vets but very few have ever served ?

Why don't libs support those while they are serving in uniform instead of proclaiming they support them after they stopped wearing the uniform ?

Which brings into play that while serving in the military there was little day to day contact with libs but after their tour of duty the day to day contact with libs in the civilian world is enough to drive someone to substance abuse, chronic unemployment, homelessness and eventually suicide.

I was lucky compared to most, I was able to escape Los Angeles and fled to behind the Orange Curtain.

Only right wingers serve in the military.
 
You most certainly did.

You leave me no choice but to bust your little bubble. Go to post #1. The OP brought politics into this topic with his asinine comment >"THIS IS FAILURE ON A CATASTROPHIC LEVEL, but something the hawks care to ignore."<
 
You leave me no choice but to bust your little bubble. Go to post #1. The OP brought politics into this topic with his asinine comment >"THIS IS FAILURE ON A CATASTROPHIC LEVEL, but something the hawks care to ignore."<

"Hawks" is not a political ideology.
 

Did you, or for that matter, the person who retitled the article actually read it?

"As defined by GOP leaders, non-security spending includes all discretionary spending not for defense, homeland security, veterans and military construction."

That is the only reference to "veterans" in the whole article and clearly denotes that veterans are exempted from cuts to non-security spending and discretionary spending. No where did I see a single thing that said that veterans would suffer cuts, other than the title at the top.
 
(CNN) -- Every day, 22 veterans take their own lives. That's a suicide every 65 minutes. As shocking as the number is, it may actually be higher.
The figure, released by the Department of Veterans Affairs in February, is based on the agency's own data and numbers reported by 21 states from 1999 through 2011. Those states represent about 40% of the U.S. population. The other states, including the two largest (California and Texas) and the fifth-largest (Illinois), did not make data available.
Who wasn't counted?
People like Levi Derby, who hanged himself in his grandfather's garage in Illinois on April 5, 2007. He was haunted, says his mother, Judy Caspar, by an Afghan child's death. He had handed the girl a bottle of water, and when she came forward to take it, she stepped on a land mine.

THIS IS FAILURE ON A CATASTROPHIC LEVEL, but something the hawks care to ignore.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/index.html

It's their own fault. They stupidly made a decision to sign up and fight for their (corrupt) govt. instead of doing something honorable w/their lives.

And only a compete moron would believe that his/her govt. would take care of him/her, in any shape or form.
 
They/we are probably staying away because other than the opening post there hasn't been enough intelligence demonstrated here for us to feed upon.

Veteran healthcare, or rather the failure of it, has been covered before. No need to keep bitching about it when Obama is in office and the Dems have the Senate. Thankfully, the GOP at least has the house, so we haven't totally defunded veteran care to pay for welfare and medicaid yet.

It's kind of weird how you say things like that when it is in fact Republicans who keep gutting programs for veterans. The same Republicans who wouldn't pay for treatments to firefighters who developed cancer from all the debris from digging people out of the WTC.

For example: GOP Senators Block Veterans Jobs Bill | Military.com
Daily Kos: GOP Voted Against 7 Bills to Help Veterans

This one, too.


It would be disgusting except that the left, in the form of Obama and Dems, have a lot to do with why those veterans are now bodies instead of living people. The way the left treats the military as a lab for social experiments and the way they threat veterans truly is disgusting.

"Social experiments"? Isn't that the right wing buzzword for not kicking out gays anymore? Yes, clearly lots of soldiers are dying because the gay soldiers don't have to lie about being gay anymore.

True story. Everyone also beats up on the VA for having such a backlog (and it does suck). No one wants to talk about the dirty little original source of that backlog, which is the prevalence of people who get out and try to put in a claim for virtually every major joint, organ, you name it, planning to get free medical care and a monthly check for life.

Sounds like one more reason to just have UHC and not worry about such complications.

BTW: Why are libs always so concerned with vets but very few have ever served ?

Not true in the slightest. By all means, support this with facts if you can.

Why don't libs support those while they are serving in uniform instead of proclaiming they support them after they stopped wearing the uniform ?

Supporting soldiers and supporting war are very different things. We support the soldiers. That's why we don't want to send them off to die for oil money.

But the majority serving in the military since the end of the draft do identify themselves as being conservative.

Polls vary, but it appears to a pretty even 50/50 split. While 50.1% is technically a majority, I don't think you meant by such a slim margin, did you?

So, back to the OP, there is substantially insufficient care for veterans, and often soldiers are serving many more tours than they did before 2000. We should not be engaged in perpetual warfare, especially not occupying countries. PTSD is a serious problem and needs to be more seriously addressed. Even to those of us who are strongly opposed to the wars that these vets fought in, their desire to serve and their sacrifice absolutely earns them our focus and our efforts to help them, both with healthcare and to integrate back into civilian life.
 
That's sheer nonsense. Those veterans committed suicide because of what, gays in the military? The "left" treats veterans far better than the "right" does these days.

Why each individual committed suicide, I cannot tell you without review of each individual case.

However,

The basic military training courses have been "dumbed" down. Discipline and preparation for meeting combat needs has been greatly reduced due to the wussification of BMT. Instructors are not allowed to call names, touch or in some cases even yell at trainees. Trainees at one time were constantly pushed towards a breaking point, those who broke never went one, those who didn't found their breaking point moved. This process is similar to the tempering of steal. Poor temper it breaks. Fail to temper your weapons, i.e., the military members correctly, they break. This is, in my opinion, one of the primary causes of the increase in PTSD cases in todays military. We sent them to hell without properly preparing them. This breaking down of the process was begun under the Carter Administration and further watering down was done during the Clinton regime.

Another prime tool used to prepare troops mentally is the practice of "dehumanizing the enemy". This is the source of constant use of terms like Raghead, Haji, Jap, Nip, Dink, Slope, Kraut, just to name a few historical examples. Political correctness and this liberal need not to be offensive has almost totally stopped this import mental preparation.

The left has also been the major force behind reducing alcohol use and smoking. Both of which are needed stress relievers in a combat zone. Couple these with Political Correctness ideals that do not allow R&R to places like the Pi or Thailand where the troops can truly unwind and "get their clocks cleaned". Add on the stress of spending that much time away from home and in close contact with members of the opposite sex in a population in their sexual primes and the need to be Politically correct towards those members of the opposite sex. Then add on that magazines, such as Maxim, are prohibited in many areas and the display of "pin up" girls is considered sexual harassment. Many of these factors add up, especially overtime, to great amounts of stress above and beyond just the stress of living and surviving in a combat zone with no relief, and yes, some are going to break.

Then there is the under staffing of VA facilities for handling things like PTSD. There is also now the added problem of if you go to a VA center MHC you are asked about gun ownership and any mention of suicidal thoughts will get you black listed faster than a felony conviction for future gun ownership. The Obama regime has also now made it to where if a VA hospital finds that you are financially irresponsible and deemed unable to take care of your own finances, you also get black listed from firearm ownership for that. With all this Obama sponsored threat to a persons rights, why would anyone actually go near the place to seek help? Answer, a lot of them don't.
 
Then maybe we shouldn't have so many pointless wars where we need to put these people into harm's way?

We do not wage pointless wars. Only the govt. does.
 
Remember how the Democrat Party paid tribute to the American veterans during the Democrat National Convention back in 2012 ?

I remember.

dnc_2012_veteran_honor_russian_ships.jpg
 
Democrat Party

There's no such thing as the "Democrat Party."

That's certainly a pretty stupid gaffe; however, it's hard to claim that was anything other than an oversight by someone involved in the production.
 
Polls vary, but it appears to a pretty even 50/50 split. While 50.1% is technically a majority, I don't think you meant by such a slim margin, did you?

.

I have no idea where you came up with that.

Well lets see, would you prefer a poll, survey or a scientific study ?

I'm going to keep the scientific study for a future thread. I'll just give you a quick peak, only 3% of the U.S. military Officers Corps identify as being liberal. But that study is for a future thread on the DP.

How about Military Times 2012 survey of the troops ?

In general, would you describe your political views as: Percent Total

Very conservative ██████ 6.84% 54
Conservative ████████████████████ 38.91% 307
Moderate ████████████████████ 37.01% 292
Liberal ██████ 6.72% 53
Very liberal █ 1.39% 11
Decline to answer ██████ 9.13% 72

Response
In politics today, do you consider yourself a: Percent Total
Democrat ██████ 9.72% 77
Independent ███████████████ 27.9% 221
Libertarian ██████ 5.43% 43
Republican █████████████████████████ 43.81% 347
Other ███ 3.79% 30
Decline to answer ██████ 9.34% 74
Military Times Poll

How about a Gallup Poll, one that deals with all vetrans. Are you game ?

Military Veterans of All Ages Tend to Be More Republican

Military Veterans of All Ages Tend to Be More Republican
 

Why don't you go back and read the threads on some of those. The bill wasn't killed because it was a Jobs bill, it was killed because of all the attachments made to it, including the Senate Dems military spending bill. If you look up the rest, you will probably find so many BS attachements that more than justify the killing/voting against the bills. Want to see how reps and others would really vote for them, then try them without the crap attached. This **** makes good headlines for those to lazy or stupid to dig into the real facts.
 
"Social experiments"? Isn't that the right wing buzzword for not kicking out gays anymore? Yes, clearly lots of soldiers are dying because the gay soldiers don't have to lie about being gay anymore.

I don't know, ask the right wing. Wasn't what I was referring to anyways.
 
There's no such thing as the "Democrat Party."

That's certainly a pretty stupid gaffe; however, it's hard to claim that was anything other than an oversight by someone involved in the production.

The DNC seems to be just as incompetent as the Obama administration.
 
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