Why Republicans Refuse to Reconcile Themselves to Obamacare

[Visbek]

Hilarious. You give guff about reading the legislation and then say it was "passed fair and square" when not one legislator read the entire bill before passage.

They have staff for that.

Nor is this somehow unique to legislators. CEO's don't read every last word in the contracts they sign. I seriously doubt that most home buyers read all the legal documentation involved.

Every buy software? Do you read every single phrase of the EULA?

Oh wait, I forgot -- this isn't about rational objections to the legislative process, it's an attempt to find any emotional reason to reject a piece of legislation that you don't understand. Never mind...

 

[jaeger19]

You have read all 2,500-2,700 pages of it along with its links to pre existing law/policy, and understand it all perfectly? Not saying you don't/haven't, just asking.

As I recall.. it was more like 1990 pages. (and a lot of pages with titles outlines etc). but yes I have read it... As far as understanding perfectly? I wouldn't make that claim since there are a number of things that are subject to interpretation. I'll give you an example. Initially, I thought the expansion of Medicaid was a very bad idea. Reading the bill, it calculated increasing Medicaid by 133% of the poverty line. Now initially that appeared to more than double the criteria for Medicaid. But now that states are going through the expansion of Medicaid.. its a 33% increase in the criteria..not more than doubling. In other words a lot few people will be covered under Medicaid than I previously thought. ..

However, death panels?

 

[jaeger19]

The bill is illegible save to legislative specialists. Furthermore, much of the scheme is implemented by the oft-repeated formula, "The Secretary [of HHS] shall," meaning that you need to read tens of thousands of pages of equally inscrutable executive regulations. Basically Congress delegated much of the construction of the scheme to HHS.

Illegible? Hardly... and Congress did delegate much of the implementation to the HHS... but as far as policy there is quite a bit already spelled out by the ACA.

 

[jaeger19]

The bill is illegible save to legislative specialists. Furthermore, much of the scheme is implemented by the oft-repeated formula, "The Secretary [of HHS] shall," meaning that you need to read tens of thousands of pages of equally inscrutable executive regulations. Basically Congress delegated much of the construction of the scheme to HHS.

Illegible? Hardly... and Congress did delegate much of the implementation to the HHS... but as far as policy there is quite a bit already spelled out by the ACA.

 

[Greenbeard]

You have read all 2,500-2,700 pages of it along with its links to pre existing law/policy, and understand it all perfectly? Not saying you don't/haven't, just asking.

All told, it's about 950 pages long.

Not exactly short, but it's comprehensive reform and covers a lot of ground. It's not as if it isn't clearly organized:

• Title I is all the private health insurance market reforms
• Title II is Medicaid reform
• Title III is Medicare and delivery system reform
• Title IV is the public health and prevention piece
• Title V is about building up the health care workforce
• Title VI is the new program integrity provisions to crack down on fraud in the public insurance programs
• Title VII is about creating a streamlined FDA approval pathway for biosimilars
• Title VIII was to create a long-term care insurance program (this title was repealed this year as part of the fiscal cliff deal)
• Title IX is all the revenue raising parts, the pay-fors

And within all those titles everything's pretty clearly labeled.

That said, if you were to read only this comprehensive section-by-section summary, you'd be pretty much all the way there.

 

[opendebate]

Not for society's losers. The bums and dregs who'd rather pay the cable bill than the health insurance bill. It won't go up for them.

That is a profoundly ignorant statement. There are plenty of hardworking people who simply can not afford to pay the exorbitant costs of insurance or even their share of costs if they are insured.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

That is a profoundly ignorant statement. There are plenty of hardworking people who simply can not afford to pay the exorbitant costs of insurance or even their share of costs if they are insured.

Show me. Show me someone who is "hardworking" and cannot afford a hundred or so dollars a month.

...and this person better not own a cell phone, or pay a cable bill. This person better not own a home bigger than they need, or spend more than what's needed for basic necessities like food and clothing. I'd be willing to bet that whomever you choose, will be either a) covered under Medicare or Medicaid, or b) really can afford health insurance, but elects not to, in lieu of other non-discretionary income.

...and again, I was generalizing. Don't go trying to prove your point by pulling a .001%'er out of your butt either. Everything has exceptions, so don't expect me to think of your exception as the norm.

 

[polisciguy]

This was political malpractice. This is not how you pass legislation in a democracy when you have good reason to believe the public is not behind you. Obamacare needs to be repealed in toto to send a message to BOTH parties that abuse of process is intolerable.

I'd add we need to stop voting for those two parties as well. We really need third parties involved in national elections.

 

[paddymcdougall]

Show me. Show me someone who is "hardworking" and cannot afford a hundred or so dollars a month.

...and this person better not own a cell phone, or pay a cable bill. This person better not own a home bigger than they need, or spend more than what's needed for basic necessities like food and clothing. I'd be willing to bet that whomever you choose, will be either a) covered under Medicare or Medicaid, or b) really can afford health insurance, but elects not to, in lieu of other non-discretionary income.

...and again, I was generalizing. Don't go trying to prove your point by pulling a .001%'er out of your butt either. Everything has exceptions, so don't expect me to think of your exception as the norm.

And there are subsidies for low income people who can't afford the premiums.

 

[wbcoleman]

no silly, you dont get to wave your hands and magically say you dont have to believe the CBO. And thats why republicans didnt say "garbage in garbage out" in 2010 because they knew that would only work on the dumbest of the dumb. thats why they had to craft a narrative that explained away the CBO estimate as opposed to attacking the CBO.

so I guess you wont be updating the lying narrative for "10 years of revenue and 9 years of benefits". But thanks for the laugh.

I sure as hell can wave my hands and say I don't believe the CBO! Mind you, it's not the CBO's fault, they do the best they can under hopeless circumstances.

 

[wbcoleman]

They have staff for that.

Nor is this somehow unique to legislators. CEO's don't read every last word in the contracts they sign. I seriously doubt that most home buyers read all the legal documentation involved.

Every buy software? Do you read every single phrase of the EULA?

Oh wait, I forgot -- this isn't about rational objections to the legislative process, it's an attempt to find any emotional reason to reject a piece of legislation that you don't understand. Never mind...

There's a big difference. We're talking about 2,700 pages of deeply flawed legislation, attempting to control 1/6 of the U.S. economy, with one of the masterminds of scheme telling us that we need to pass it in order to find out what's in it. And she wasn't kidding, either!

 

[wbcoleman]

As I recall.. it was more like 1990 pages. (and a lot of pages with titles outlines etc). but yes I have read it... As far as understanding perfectly? I wouldn't make that claim since there are a number of things that are subject to interpretation. I'll give you an example. Initially, I thought the expansion of Medicaid was a very bad idea. Reading the bill, it calculated increasing Medicaid by 133% of the poverty line. Now initially that appeared to more than double the criteria for Medicaid. But now that states are going through the expansion of Medicaid.. its a 33% increase in the criteria..not more than doubling. In other words a lot few people will be covered under Medicaid than I previously thought. ..

However, death panels?

The first bill is 2,407 pages. The second bill 55 pages.

 

[Montecresto]

All told, it's about 950 pages long.

Not exactly short, but it's comprehensive reform and covers a lot of ground. It's not as if it isn't clearly organized:

• Title I is all the private health insurance market reforms
• Title II is Medicaid reform
• Title III is Medicare and delivery system reform
• Title IV is the public health and prevention piece
• Title V is about building up the health care workforce
• Title VI is the new program integrity provisions to crack down on fraud in the public insurance programs
• Title VII is about creating a streamlined FDA approval pathway for biosimilars
• Title VIII was to create a long-term care insurance program (this title was repealed this year as part of the fiscal cliff deal)
• Title IX is all the revenue raising parts, the pay-fors

And within all those titles everything's pretty clearly labeled.

That said, if you were to read only this comprehensive section-by-section summary, you'd be pretty much all the way there.

Our 'Affordable Care Act' Summary breaks down ObamaCare section by section. The 'Affordable Care Act' summary will give the most factual representation of the bill by breaking it down into it's simplest form. Remember, every title and every section of the 'Affordable Care Act' Bill is packed with details (even the condensed version of the Bill is 2000+ pages long). We have the whole Act on our site, this is only a quick 'Affordable Care Act' Summary to help give an overview of what the new health care law is all about.

http://obamacarefacts.com/affordablecareact-summary.php

 

[wbcoleman]

All told, it's about 950 pages long.

Not exactly short, but it's comprehensive reform and covers a lot of ground. It's not as if it isn't clearly organized:

• Title I is all the private health insurance market reforms
• Title II is Medicaid reform
• Title III is Medicare and delivery system reform
• Title IV is the public health and prevention piece
• Title V is about building up the health care workforce
• Title VI is the new program integrity provisions to crack down on fraud in the public insurance programs
• Title VII is about creating a streamlined FDA approval pathway for biosimilars
• Title VIII was to create a long-term care insurance program (this title was repealed this year as part of the fiscal cliff deal)
• Title IX is all the revenue raising parts, the pay-fors

And within all those titles everything's pretty clearly labeled.

That said, if you were to read only this comprehensive section-by-section summary, you'd be pretty much all the way there.

The first bill is 2,407 pages. The second bill 55 pages.

 

[wbcoleman]

I'd add we need to stop voting for those two parties as well. We really need third parties involved in national elections.

I'm hard-pressed to recognize any third parties over the past 200 years which turned out to particularly useful, aside from the GOP in 1854.

 

[Montecresto]

Apparently nobody can agree on how many pages it is, let alone what it says and more importantly, what it means.

 

[sangha]

Healthcare costs are going up!

I miss the days when healthcare costs were going down

And leeches! I miss them too

 

[Visbek]

There's a big difference. We're talking about 2,700 pages of deeply flawed legislation....

I have to ask, have you read the entire bill, and determined exactly what was "deeply flawed" based on that reading -- rather than media reports?

attempting to control 1/6 of the U.S. economy

That isn't even close to what it does. It doesn't change insurance for the vast majority of Americans, who still get their insurance from their employers.

I think that answers my first question.

with one of the masterminds of scheme telling us that we need to pass it in order to find out what's in it. And she wasn't kidding, either!

That's because she was discussing the legislative process. The Senate was still hashing out the bill, so the House had not way of knowing for certain what would be included in the Senate bill until it was passed.

Good to see that you're criticizing the bill not based on its policy, but a fundamental misunderstanding of how the legislature works.

 

[Greenbeard]

Our 'Affordable Care Act' Summary breaks down ObamaCare section by section. The 'Affordable Care Act' summary will give the most factual representation of the bill by breaking it down into it's simplest form. Remember, every title and every section of the 'Affordable Care Act' Bill is packed with details (even the condensed version of the Bill is 2000+ pages long). We have the whole Act on our site, this is only a quick 'Affordable Care Act' Summary to help give an overview of what the new health care law is all about.

Affordable Care Act Summary

I look at your link and click "Obamacare bill" on the left sidebar. I then click where it says "You can download the Full ObamaCare Bill here: Full Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare) Bill."

It's very clearly 955 pages long. Which I could've sworn I just said.

 

[Vern]

I sure as hell can wave my hands and say I don't believe the CBO! Mind you, it's not the CBO's fault, they do the best they can under hopeless circumstances.

Please, by all means clarify the "hopeless circumstances" remembering of course that the lying republican narrative was "10 years of taxes and 6 years of benefits"

"•Delays Costly Benefits. The Senate bill is cleverly designed to gather revenues (higher taxes, fees, and other offsets) over the full 10 year window but delays paying out the major benefits, like subsidies, until the last 6 years. So, the 2010-2019 estimate is not a full cost estimate of all provisions fully implemented and will certainly add significantly to the true cost of the bill. Moreover, as with all government programs, they always cost more than originally promised."

The Senate Health Bill: Budget Gimmicks Galore | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation

and be specific.

 

[Montecresto]

I miss the days when healthcare costs were going down

And leeches! I miss them too

That would be funny had Obama not assured us that health care costs would be going DOWN. Hence AFFORDABLE Care Act. Any other comedy you wish to share.

 

[Montecresto]

I look at your link and click "Obamacare bill" on the left sidebar. I then click where it says "You can download the Full ObamaCare Bill here: Full Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare) Bill."

It's very clearly 955 pages long. Which I could've sworn I just said.

Yes, that's the summary. Btw, there are several versions. Have you seen Mitch's version that he hauled out on a hand truck.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

I think the right wing and conservatives often forget some history of the ACA (Obamacare).. Ill let this explain it for me.

 

[Greenbeard]

That would be funny had Obama not assured us that health care costs would be going DOWN. Hence AFFORDABLE Care Act. Any other comedy you wish to share.

The situation's that emerged isn't all that bad. Health care price inflation right is at or near an all-time low and group health insurance premium increases last year were the smallest since the late '90s. We've been seeing the slowest health spending growth and the slowest per beneficiary Medicare cost growth ever recorded. The overall slowdown in health spending growth has caused hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare and Medicaid spending over this decade to quite unexpectedly melt away. These are unprecedented times.

 

[Baralis]

I personally like some of what they were trying to achieve but I believe they went about it all the wrong way as is typical of Washington and the ACA ended up being a turd as a whole.