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Why minimum wage should be $26 an hour

Agreed, but "our debt stops selling" isn't a binary thing. Buyers of debt set the rate of return they're willing to buy at. That could go up, and UP, until it actually causes the hyperinflation.
Not a lot of people know, but the US is constitutionally bound to honor its debts. That's trivially easy with debt repayed in Dollars; inflation would be on our side. However, it would probably become impossible to borrow any more. Lenders would insist on their money paid back in crypto, or even gold.

As I see it, the worst that can happen is US lenders get screwed, and the US Fed has to use taxes instead of debt. I would say "don't buy securities based on US paper" except that may well be impossible!

Oh, another thing. Any state wishing to secede in the future, will need a really convincing debt repayment plan. The US is NOT getting screwed like Puerto Rico.
The debt ceiling argument coming may accelerate that process. Looks like the Senate R's are willing to tank our economy in search of political power.
 
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know how adequate $0.25/Hr was in 1938!

But I've seen quite a bit of data, over recent years, showing housing costs have increased greatly in relation to wages. In fact, I've observed it myself over the course of my lifetime.

1] I'm glad as hell I bought a long time ago

2] I saddened for my kids & future generations having to struggle to attain ownership, or often - and sadder - just to simply rent a decent roof over their heads in a safe neighborhood.

'#2' is a big-deal in urban neighborhoods, as purchase & rental costs are directly related to the quality & safety of the neighborhood. Cheaper rents are in the crappiest neighborhoods, or so far out that commutes become a substantial hardship.

Some assume that retirees and the disabled, who rely heavily on Social Security (SS) for the majority of their income, should be able to “own their homes outright”, thus having the ability to live on the average SS retirement benefit of about $18K/year (the FTE of about $8.65/hour).
 
And....anyone care to take a stab at what Milk would cost if these ****ing idiot college economists actually ran the economy? Bread? Gasoline? A Big Mac?
 
Some assume that retirees and the disabled, who rely heavily on Social Security (SS) for the majority of their income, should be able to “own their homes outright”, thus having the ability to live on the average SS retirement benefit of about $18K/year (the FTE of about $8.65/hour).

Yeah, I remember SS claiming SS income should be only a 'portion' of retirement income. I forgot the exact percentage.

So, I disagree with SS guaranteeing home ownership. No American is guaranteed home ownership, and only a little over half of us even attain that 'dream' during our 'working 'years!

Now that being said, it would be great if a SS recipient could keep & maintain a modest paid-off property. But that sounds like a tight fit, at least in the major urban areas. And of course in urban areas income determines safety; meaning the caricature of the struggling elderly pensioner in a divey apartment, in a neighborhood that has hit the skids, is often true. Then we send in Tony Barretta!
 
At 1938 standards of living, sure. Life has gotten MUCH better for the vast majority of Americans, however.

The 1938 number (0.25c) was adjusted for inflation, for your convenience. Inflation *since 1982* has been calculated on a basket of commodities it is assumed everyone needs. The basket was changed in '84 so all "inflation" figures before that are suspect. More pertinently though, the minimum wage was quickly increased (more quickly than inflation) in the year after (1939.)

I think legislators understood that suddenly applying a minimum wage could destroy jobs, particularly in the Depression, so it was phased over more than one year, but by one act of legislation. Something similar happened the last time minimum wages were increased (2008). It as a series of three annual raises. Both the Manchin and Democratic plans are for gradual increases (about $2 per year). And it's also relevant to note the high minimum wage under Reagan. He couldn't veto it because it was already legislated, and maybe wouldn't have anyway considering the toll inflation was still taking on the working class.

Now I'm dubious about this, but I took an estimate of dollar worth since 1900 and divided it into legislated minimum wages, and found the highs adjusted for inflation since 1938.

Mainly I'm dubious about this table though I may have made some other mistake.

Highest: 1968, $1.60 nominal, $11.90 in 2020 dollars.
Next Highest: 1967, $1.25 nominal, $10.85 in 2020 dollars.
Next Highest: 1963, $1.25 nominal, $10.57 in 2020 dollars.
Next Highest: 1978, $2.65 nominal, $10,52 in 2020 dollars.

(((then a bunch from the 60's and 70's, and 2 from the 1980's:
Middle High: 1980, $3.10 nominal, $9.74 in 2020 dollars.
Middle High: 1981, $3.35 nominal, $9.54 in 2020 dollars.

(((and
Most recent high: 2009, $7.25, $8.75 in 2020 dollars.

Other source was the dole ... er, DOL, Dept of Labor, but it's not my fault if they chose a dumb acronym.
 
Yeah, I remember SS claiming SS income should be only a 'portion' of retirement income. I forgot the exact percentage.

So, I disagree with SS guaranteeing home ownership. No American is guaranteed home ownership, and only a little over half of us even attain that 'dream' during our 'working 'years!

Now that being said, it would be great if a SS recipient could keep & maintain a modest paid-off property. But that sounds like a tight fit, at least in the major urban areas. And of course in urban areas income determines safety; meaning the caricature of the struggling elderly pensioner in a divey apartment, in a neighborhood that has hit the skids, is often true. Then we send in Tony Barretta!

There isn't really a housing shortage, but there is a shortage of housing in areas where people can find jobs. Any government policy encouraging old people to live one or two at a time, in houses big enough for a family, would be terrible policy imo.

Old people are conservative though. Maybe if there was a drug we could give them, a dose of YOLO, to encourage them to sell or lease-back the big houses and live in rented or travelling luxury instead?

I say this as someone with a real chance of inheriting money: **** heirs. All money abandoned upon death should go to the state. Family heirlooms excepted, small farms excepted, and small businesses the heir undertakes to work themselves, also excepted. For property in the broader sense, inheritance does not make even economic sense, let alone serve social equity.
 
There isn't really a housing shortage, but there is a shortage of housing in areas where people can find jobs.

I'm not sure if I should take this as insightful, or a difference of little distinction!

But it is accurate & a fail point.

Agreed.

Any government policy encouraging old people to live one or two at a time, in houses big enough for a family, would be terrible policy imo.

That's fair.

Old people are conservative though. Maybe if there was a drug we could give them, a dose of YOLO, to encourage them to sell or lease-back the big houses and live in rented or travelling luxury instead?

Encourage, 'yes'. Force, 'no'.

Especially as one grows older, there is more desirability for the comfort & security that only ownership can provide. I would not take that away from anyone.

I say this as someone with a real chance of inheriting money: **** heirs. All money abandoned upon death should go to the state. Family heirlooms excepted, small farms excepted, and small businesses the heir undertakes to work themselves, also excepted. For property in the broader sense, inheritance does not make even economic sense, let alone serve social equity.

I get your sentiments, but I can't say I'm ready to cross-the-line to the solution you propose (excess capital & property relinquished to the state). In fact, I abhor that idea. My desire would be to better attack this on fostering better opportunities for everyone to generate income, rather than re-distribute income of the more fortunate.

You've definitely hit on a salient point I've hammered upon for years here, though: It is an inherent feature (flaw?) of capitalism, that the amassing of capital allows the possessor of the capital to generate further capital in excess of the labours of those that do not have capital!

That above in italics, is the root of our excess economic disparities, as I believe you understand as indicated by your 'abandonment' proposal.

In closing, as I earlier stated, my proposal would be to primarily address the disparity on the income side, rather than accumulated wealth re-distribution. I think much of this can be done through the tax code. At the least, it would be a good start.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
 
@Chomsky (sorry for the formatting mess)

Encourage, 'yes'. Force, 'no'.

This is a good general principle. Force is for when incentives have failed, and a clearly ill-intentioned player is opposing government. The carrot should never fall from our hands ...

Especially as one grows older, there is more desirability for the comfort & security that only ownership can provide. I would not take that away from anyone.

Initially I was thinking of a private sector product, "live in your own home forever" which would provide a nice income stream in addition to Ownership For Life. The only losers would be those looking to inherit.

But for one thing, it needs an option triggered by the owner's choices. For instance, when one of them dies their partner may want to live anywhere BUT the big house full of memories. There's also the case where one or both move to supported accommodation or a nursing home.

Ultimately, I think it would have to be a government package. There's so much potential for information-disparity abuse.

I get your sentiments, but I can't say I'm ready to cross-the-line to the solution you propose (excess capital & property relinquished to the state). In fact, I abhor that idea. My desire would be to better attack this on fostering better opportunities for everyone to generate income, rather than re-distribute income of the more fortunate.

You're willing to re-distribute INCOME though? This isn't some "trickle down" nonsense which has baffled the voters while wealth disparity has doubled?

Inheritance is fundamentally an act of wealth being converted to income. The heir obtains it as income, and their decision whether or not to retain it as wealth comes after that. I am opposed to both, and with the vast amounts held as residential real-estate, there has never been a better time to intervene at the income stage.

You've definitely hit on a salient point I've hammered upon for years here, though: It is an inherent feature (flaw?) of capitalism, that the amassing of capital allows the possessor of the capital to generate further capital in excess of the labours of those that do not have capital!

That above in italics, is the root of our excess economic disparities, as I believe you understand as indicated by your 'abandonment' proposal.

Residential housing isn't the best example, since it has "productive" value for months or years at a time without workers contributing. But it still fits inside the bracket "capital used to generate excess wealth."

Well, residential housing IS a productive asset, though hardly a typical one, and if I could ease your mind that old people won't be talked into financial arrangement that make them feel uneasy, but instead give them the best of both worlds (choice of a home, but a better income stream), it might all be worth it to keep middle aged punks who never did anything much for their ancestor, suddenly becoming millionaires. Or even part millionaires. It's market irrationality, and with each transfer of money, widens the gap between rich and poor.


In closing, as I earlier stated, my proposal would be to primarily address the disparity on the income side, rather than accumulated wealth re-distribution. I think much of this can be done through the tax code. At the least, it would be a good start.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The time to address the wealth disparity on the income side, was decades ago. The poor now, don't just have no money, they have debts (housing, auto, college) and enhancing their income would serve banks just as much as the debt holders.

Of course there's nothing wrong with more progressive taxation, or even just fiddling with Income Tax while eliminating regressive taxation (like FICA) but look out. The old lady who never talks is loading up her cat cannon ...

State taxes can be quite regressive (particularly sales) but even worse are the local taxes which fund schools and (sometimes) police. They're meta regressive, as the impoverished areas that need the most, can least afford to pay their taxes.

Sigh. I have no problem with more progressive taxes, but they're not going to solve the problem, which is income being converted to wealth, for the few, while most of us have nothing left after a paycheck, to invest.
 
[Part 1 of 2]

@Chomsky (sorry for the formatting mess)
No probs. Hope you don't mind the length this grew to. Edit and/.or respond (or not) as you please!

This is a good general principle. Force is for when incentives have failed, and a clearly ill-intentioned player is opposing government. The carrot should never fall from our hands ...

Absolutely! (y)

Initially I was thinking of a private sector product, "live in your own home forever" which would provide a nice income stream in addition to Ownership For Life. The only losers would be those looking to inherit.

It would never work as a universally tenable 'private package' due to the 'private business' profit motive.

The closest private solution is already in place: Reverse mortgages. But just like health & life insurance, private transportation, and other private assistance, the free-market only provides solutions where a profit can be made. Those that need the assistance most, do without - unless the People - via the government - steps in.

But for one thing, it needs an option triggered by the owner's choices. For instance, when one of them dies their partner may want to live anywhere BUT the big house full of memories. There's also the case where one or both move to supported accommodation or a nursing home.

Ultimately, I think it would have to be a government package. There's so much potential for information-disparity abuse.

Agreed - as above.

You're willing to re-distribute INCOME though?

Only as much as income side taxation would be concerned.

This isn't some "trickle down" nonsense which has baffled the voters while wealth disparity has doubled?

If 'trickle-down' worked, after 40 years we would have seen it!

[Con't]
 
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[Part 2 Con't]

Inheritance is fundamentally an act of wealth being converted to income. The heir obtains it as income, and their decision whether or not to retain it as wealth comes after that. I am opposed to both, and with the vast amounts held as residential real-estate, there has never been a better time to intervene at the income stage.

A bridge too far for me, my friend.

While we need solutions, I can't budge myself from the income side to the assets side, even as you rightfully claim - assets produce income. I'm fine with reasonably taxing the asset produced income, though.

Residential housing isn't the best example, since it has "productive" value for months or years at a time without workers contributing. But it still fits inside the bracket "capital used to generate excess wealth."

Well, residential housing IS a productive asset, though hardly a typical one, and if I could ease your mind that old people won't be talked into financial arrangement that make them feel uneasy, but instead give them the best of both worlds (choice of a home, but a better income stream), it might all be worth it to keep middle aged punks who never did anything much for their ancestor, suddenly becoming millionaires. Or even part millionaires. It's market irrationality, and with each transfer of money, widens the gap between rich and poor.

If you're pushing a re-allocating of assets, you're still not solving the problem though. Income will be generated less by the real property, more by financial assets, and the net effect will remain the same - disparately growing wealth accumulation resulting in further income disparity.

The time to address the wealth disparity on the income side, was decades ago. The poor now, don't just have no money, they have debts (housing, auto, college) and enhancing their income would serve banks just as much as the debt holders.

Of course there's nothing wrong with more progressive taxation, or even just fiddling with Income Tax while eliminating regressive taxation (like FICA) but look out. The old lady who never talks is loading up her cat cannon ...

State taxes can be quite regressive (particularly sales) but even worse are the local taxes which fund schools and (sometimes) police. They're meta regressive, as the impoverished areas that need the most, can least afford to pay their taxes.

Perhaps. But we don't know, if we don't try.

Sigh. I have no problem with more progressive taxes, but they're not going to solve the problem, which is income being converted to wealth, for the few, while most of us have nothing left after a paycheck, to invest.

CF my response directly above.

Anyway, thanks for the efforts & discussion.
 
Yes American workers are not making enough money but simply raising the minimum wage is not the solution for this, the reason Americans make less and less is because the left declared “diversity is our strength” and imported millions of aliens into America to both compete with American workers and make organizing labor difficult since the left also controls the education system and uses it to plant distrust of old stock Americans amongst new arrivals.

the women’s garment workers Union was very powerful for many years because it was lower to middle class Jewish women and when the managers just started opening plants in LA and telling Mexican workers that the union was racist it died.

so we need to institute an immigration moratorium to start with, then begin applying tariffs, and then the environmentalists need to be banned from the government so more housing and industrial facilities can be built.
While basic economic theory dictates scarcity increases the price (and indeed we're seeing this happen now with pandemic wages), people will still be needed to fill vacancies. Immigration works in that respect at both the higher and lower ends of the job market.

Of course maybe if we just painted immigrants white at the border conservatives wouldn't notice them.

minwage Seattle.jpg
 
irrelevant question, the fact is, a company's main duty is to create a profit for its owners. That prime directive is impeded if you pay more for labor than you have to

Henry Ford disproved that theory decades ago.
 
Henry Ford disproved that theory decades ago.
not really, what happened after his wage increases put some other competitors out of business?
 
not really, what happened after his wage increases put some other competitors out of business?

Companies go out of business all the time.
There's no way to prove they went bust because of a pay rise at Ford.
 
Companies go out of business all the time.
There's no way to prove they went bust because of a pay rise at Ford.
what did he do?
 
what did he do?

Are you being serious or yanking my chain?

Henry Ford paid higher wages to his employees so they could afford to actually buy the cars he was making. It's very well known and I find it unlikely you've not heard of it. I'm pretty sure I was taught that fact in school it's so well known.
 
Are you being serious or yanking my chain?

Henry Ford paid higher wages to his employees so they could afford to actually buy the cars he was making. It's very well known and I find it unlikely you've not heard of it. I'm pretty sure I was taught that fact in school it's so well known.
he also put some of his less prosperous competitors out of business. I have a degree in labor relations-Ford was a week's worth of reading. I believe Carnegie did the same thing-allowed the unions in-they drove up wages, which his competition couldn't afford, hebought up the broken competition, then crushed the unions and cut wages
 
If minimum wage increased to $26 / hour, it would eventually just become the new $7.25 / hour, as more money would initially be available, people would spend more more and the prices of goods and services would increase because of that demand.

Instead of increasing minimum wage, why not encourage individuals to train in a trade, go to school and stop working the jobs designed for high-school students ( e.g. fast food, etc.)?
 
he also put some of his less prosperous competitors out of business. I have a degree in labor relations-Ford was a week's worth of reading. I believe Carnegie did the same thing-allowed the unions in-they drove up wages, which his competition couldn't afford, hebought up the broken competition, then crushed the unions and cut wages

Well, you learn something every day it seems.
I bow to your obvious greater knowledge in this.
I'm 45 so school was a long time ago and my memory is at best piss poor so I'd forgotten about everything but the initial pay rise.
 
Well, you learn something every day it seems.
I bow to your obvious greater knowledge in this.
I'm 45 so school was a long time ago and my memory is at best piss poor so I'd forgotten about everything but the initial pay rise.
well I am 62 but I remember the Carnegie strategy. I believe Ford was a bit more altruistic and hoped his workers would be able to buy the cars they were making. So it was both a benefit to his workers and to his profit line
 
well I am 62 but I remember the Carnegie strategy. I believe Ford was a bit more altruistic and hoped his workers would be able to buy the cars they were making. So it was both a benefit to his workers and to his profit line.
You are absolutely spot on. And the more cars Ford could sell it was easy to offer their product at a lower cost than their competition.
 
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