Why is statist a bad thing?

[Slartibartfast]

Ok. Well stop going to the doctor then. Don't take any medicine. Don't use cars, don't pasteurized products because or technology and sophistication has no value. But I don't think you will, because there's tons of value in what humans have done.

Yes because we use it to fix stuff. That was my point.

But I'm not for changing what it is to be human to fit some mad man's definition of how humans should be. Why do you get to set what we should be anyway? Who the **** made you god?

Nobody and I am not proposing that I be a dictator or be the one to define the world. In fact I would hate that responsibility because all stuff going wrong would be on my shoulders. However, either there is a God or its just us. If its just us, than we are free to act as we please in the service of good.

There are plenty of ways to use medicine and technology and understanding to do incredible things. We'll be able to replace lost limbs not far from now. We'll also be able to grow our own organs not far from now. We will find ways to improve our medical conditions, fight diseases, ease suffering, sustain life further. But at no point are we changing what it is to be human.

Not yet. Those barriers will erode over time though, I think. Heck, once it was considered horrible for a woman to wear pants. Right now, it is becoming less horrible every day for gay people to marry. I think this is where you are mistaken. I am not proposing that I be some dictator who makes these things happen. I simply believe that human nature will drive us to higher and higher achievement and that includes ourselves are it does the world. Part of our human nature is to strive for better things and that is the value of liberalism in our society. To make the world a better place and create a freer society. Which we are doing. Society today is much more free than it was 100 years ago. Liberating ourselves from our current biological constraints is just another step in the process. It may not happen in America. It may be China or some other country, and it may take several tries because of unintended consequences, but when it happens, nobody will be able to compete. Now when it happens, it could be good or it could be bad. I say we make it good.

We are still functioning in a manner prescribed by nature. This is what we do. We're not saying "Oh look at all the conflict, well we should mess with our DNA to remove aggression" or **** like that. No, the aggression is important as well, it's what makes us human, it's what motivates us. Aggression is part of competition and competition drives us forward.

And that will change I think.

I do not think you'll end up with what you want. Like all dreams of madmen, they are doomed to failure. Law of unintended consequences would come in hard on this one. Social and genetic engineering of the human populace is a dangerous, stupid, and maniacal prospect.

Listen to yourself, you are talking as if I am some James Bondesque supervillian. Lets bring it back down to reality here. I am simply recognizing an eventuality and want to guide it for the good of humanity and away from a potential super dictator (which is a real possibility, but even than, if we are engineered to be happy under a dictator, than we are happy anyway and no value is lost).

You may think I am some horrible monster. If you do, than so be it. However, I am recognizing consciousness for what it is. It works within the limits and constraints that is set for it, fundamentally through dna, nutrition, and mental constructs (which are the easiest to change), no different than any other technology. It is subject to engineering like anything else because all it is is naturally derived technology. If you want to put constraints on your thinking in the name of some greater good that results in suffering, all in the name of nature, than so be it. However, humanity has not been natural since we started using tools and changing our environment to suit ourselves.

However, if Christianity is true, and I think it is, none of this matters, because it will be done for us as we are supposed to have perfect bodies in the new world and since the mind is the creation of the body, our mentality will change as a result. Either way, it will happen.

 

[Ikari]

Listen to yourself, you are talking as if I am some James Bondesque supervillian.

I don't think that you're good enough to be a James Bond supervillian, but it's along those lines. You're a Lex Luthor of sorts, but he was pretty damned good. Skill wise, you're maybe a Dr. Evil.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I don't think that you're good enough to be a James Bond supervillian, but it's along those lines. You're a Lex Luthor of sorts, but he was pretty damned good. Skill wise, you're maybe a Dr. Evil.

I would make a crappy supervillian I think. I am too unwilling to cause harm, plus I am no genius.

 

[Ikari]

I would make a crappy supervillian I think. I am too unwilling to cause harm, plus I am no genius.

Which is a good thing. The last guy who rose to power talking about the "perfect race" started some really bad ****.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Which is a good thing. The last guy who rose to power talking about the "perfect race" started some really bad ****.

I think its ok to dream up ways to make things better. I think its ok to try and create conditions where better things can arise. I do not think it is ok to cause harm to accomplish that sort of goal, and I know what the result can be and why you react the way you to do to such talk. I feel the same way about using that sort of force. But I think society will go that direction anyway, we have for centuries and the progress will likely remain slow.

 

[Ikari]

I think its ok to dream up ways to make things better. I think its ok to try and create conditions where better things can arise. I do not think it is ok to cause harm to accomplish that sort of goal, and I know what the result can be and why you react the way you to do to such talk. I feel the same way about using that sort of force. But I think society will go that direction anyway, we have for milennia.

"Making things better" is a far cry from your original plan of social and genetic engineering to perfect humanity. There are many ways we can work to make things better which are not so innately evil and dangerous as purposeful human engineering to create someone's ideal of perfect humanity.

 

[Slartibartfast]

"Making things better" is a far cry from your original plan of social and genetic engineering to perfect humanity.

No, its the same thing. But with genetic engineering, there is no force because you are essentially creating a new being from nothing or raw materials. Hopefully it can be done with some sort of stem cell instead of an embryo to avoid that whole debate. Hurting existing people is a no-no.

There are many ways we can work to make things better which are not so innately evil and dangerous as purposeful human engineering to create someone's ideal of perfect humanity.

We should do those things too. And I disagree that it is evil for reasons mentioned in the last paragraph.

 

[Ikari]

No, its the same thing. But with genetic engineering, there is no force because you are essentially creating a new being from nothing or raw materials. Hopefully it can be done with some sort of stem cell instead of an embryo to avoid that whole debate. Hurting existing people is a no-no.

You still don't get it, and I doubt you ever will. You've made a baby and then you're going to monkey with it and you're pretending like you're not. I'm sure evil people throughout history have not understood that they are evil. But there is an absolute here, and on that absolute scale what you propose is sick, dangerous, and has great potential to destroy humanity.

 

[Harshaw]

You still don't get it, and I doubt you ever will. You've made a baby and then you're going to monkey with it and you're pretending like you're not. I'm sure evil people throughout history have not understood that they are evil. But there is an absolute here, and on that absolute scale what you propose is sick, dangerous, and has great potential to destroy humanity.

Not to mention sublimely arrogant.

 

[Slartibartfast]

You still don't get it, and I doubt you ever will. You've made a baby and then you're going to monkey with it and you're pretending like you're not. I'm sure evil people throughout history have not understood that they are evil. But there is an absolute here, and on that absolute scale what you propose is sick, dangerous, and has great potential to destroy humanity.

I am saying monkey with it and as a result it becomes a baby. I wonder if we can put a whole nucleus into an egg cell and not use sperm for example. Before the transfer, it is not a baby. After the transfer it is. (at least if you think life comes from the first cell, but I am trying to avoid that whole debate since that is for another subforum). The point is we can do these things without causing harm.

But if your morality informs you that I am evil, so be it. I think a lot of people are evil and they would disagree as well :shrug:

Heck, I think a lot of evil results from natural law, but I doubt you would acknowledge it.

 

[Ikari]

I'm sure the people who start creating the first chimeras will say the same thing you do. You should honestly watch Gattaca.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I'm sure the people who start creating the first chimeras will say the same thing you do. You should honestly watch Gattaca.

I have seen Gattaca. I have both read and watched brave new world (which honestly doesn't sound like a bad place to live, except for the sexual morals of the culture). I have read space odyssey (guy gets turned into an energy being). I have watched stargate sg1 (energy beings, I am not sure thats physically possible though). I have seen babylon 5. Etc. Lots of sci fi contains these themes.

 

[Harshaw]

I am saying monkey with it and as a result it becomes a baby. I wonder if we can put a whole nucleus into an egg cell and not use sperm for example. Before the transfer, it is not a baby. After the transfer it is. (at least if you think life comes from the first cell, but I am trying to avoid that whole debate since that is for another subforum). The point is we can do these things without causing harm.

But if your morality informs you that I am evil, so be it. I think a lot of people are evil and they would disagree as well :shrug:

Heck, I think a lot of evil results from natural law, but I doubt you would acknowledge it.

What on Earth makes you think that you -- or anyone -- has the wisdom to do something like this?

 

[Slartibartfast]

What on Earth makes you think that you -- or anyone -- has the wisdom to do something like this?

Because we have accomplished it before. Look at the domestication of many popular pets and farm animals. We just used less efficient methods. I am not proposing something new.

 

[Harshaw]

Because we have accomplished it before. Look at the domestication of many popular pets and farm animals. We just used less efficient methods. I am not proposing something new.

You are equating creating a better race of people with domesticating animals?

This gets scarier by the post.

 

[Slartibartfast]

You are equating creating a better race of people with domesticating animals?

This gets scarier by the post.

What makes us different from animals? The only thing I can think of is that we have superior intelligence and the ability to use tools.

Heck, even Ikari said we are monkeys, and its true, we are.

 

[Harshaw]

What makes us different from animals? The only thing I can think of is that we have superior intelligence and the ability to use tools.

Heck, even Ikari said we are monkeys, and its true, we are.

So . . . people are animals to be bred and engineered into better animals. Is this right?

 

[Slartibartfast]

So . . . people are animals to be bred and engineered into better animals. Is this right?

People are animals. We are not bacteria. We are not plants. We are not fungi. We are animals. Now I think we are the best animals and because of our intelligence we are able to create a world better than the natural world and we are currently doing so. We have technology. We have cities. We have specialization of labor. We have music. But yes, we are still animals, but I don't think that lowers our value because of all the cool stuff we can do we are still great, awesome and wonderful things and we should be in awe of it while recognizing that it can still be better.

I challenge your negative connotation in the phrase "just animals" and I deny the trap you are setting with that question. Animals are great wonders of nature.

Anyway, this thread is starting to get boring. You guys know my stance and you can be appalled all you wish by it. I make no bones about what I believe is right and wrong, immoral and moral.

Ultimately, I believe there is a God and as such, these sorts of things are His domain. However, if there is not one, than we are the masters of our own creation. However, I suspect the real reason that many are appalled by this sort of thing is because Christian morality still pervades our culture, even if you are not a theist. Which, I think is fine.

 

[Harshaw]

People are animals. We are not bacteria. We are not plants. We are not fungi. We are animals. Now I think we are the best animals and because of our intelligence we are able to create a world better than the natural world and we are currently doing so. We have technology. We have cities. We have specialization of labor. We have music. But yes, we are still animals, but I don't think that lowers our value because of all the cool stuff we can do we are still great, awesome and wonderful things and we should be in awe of it while recognizing that it can still be better.

I challenge your negative connotation in the phrase "just animals" and I deny the trap you are setting with that question. Animals are great wonders of nature.

I didn't say "just animals." I said "animals." This is what you said.

You say that what you wish to do to make better people is no different from domesticating animals, because people ARE animals.

You also have no problem using the power of the state to achieve your goals.

I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I didn't say "just animals." I said "animals." This is what you said.

You say that what you wish to do to make better people is no different from domesticating animals, because people ARE animals.

You also have no problem using the power of the state to achieve your goals.

I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

I have in no place on this forum advocated for genocide and have come out against it. Please stop with the straw man.

Look, I know its not going to happen because I am not willing to make it happen. I don't have the scientific knowledge. I do not have the ambition to see it happen. I do not have any wish to cause harm. I have no plans to change humanity, but I think its going to happen anyway. I simply think humanity is flawed and if you want to go godwin on me, that is fine. We all know Godwin's rule. As I stated before, I am not some potential dictator. In fact I would hate to have political power because I don't want the burden of the responsibility and the guilt that comes with the inevitable screw ups because I am not perfect and I will screw up. I make mistakes all the time and I don't want that burden. I want to be responsible for my own life and the life of my family and thats it. That already takes a ton of work.

All I am saying is that humanity is flawed and this is probably the only real way to fix it. The value of our humanity is our advanced consciousness. However consciousness is a phenomenon that arises from the physical media that is the body. If we change those parameters, the consciousness and value is still there and still just as valuable. But I recognize that it will probably never happen in a way that I hope. However, I do think people are going to mess with the human genome sooner or later.

If you guys think I am plotting some sort of new human race or world domination, you need to reread. Right now, my main concern is the lowly goal of helping my wife find employment. Once that happens, it will probably be setting up a budget to start paying off student loans at a faster rate than minimum payments would get me. Beyond that, its raising my kids well enough that they will know how to get along in life and be successful at whatever it is they end up doing. I am simply pointing out that we are flawed and no matter what we do, we are going to do it in a flawed manner. So the best thing we can do is reduce suffering. Natural law does not do that. It tries to say our flaws are good and as a result, people suffer. For example, if natural law were followed closely, rich people would be rich and poor people would be going hungry and there would be some charity, but not enough. People would still be dying and suffering.

The only thing I really care about is doing good :shrug:

 

[Harshaw]

I didn't say you advocated genocide. But you're expressing the exact ideas which have led to mass graves, and which, if implemented, will ALWAYS lead to mass graves.

And those people were perfectly convinced that all THEY wanted to do was "do good," too.

 

[Ikari]

I have both read and watched brave new world (which honestly doesn't sound like a bad place to live, except for the sexual morals of the culture).

You mean the one where they had the alpha, beta, gamma, and delta classes and deprived developing children of oxygen to place them in this cast system and then controlled the entire populace through drug consumption? That one doesn't sound like a bad place to live? Seriously?

 

[Ikari]

What makes us different from animals? The only thing I can think of is that we have superior intelligence and the ability to use tools.

Heck, even Ikari said we are monkeys, and its true, we are.

Many people can behave like monkeys. But humans possess an intelligence, extelligence, and empathy which is not equaled in nature. Humans are more than simple beasts that we've bred to make certain docile animals for domestication.

 

[Ikari]

The only thing I really care about is doing good :shrug:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[other]

I often see the term individual responsibility as something people try to use to blanket over the problems with society so they can declare things to not really be problems. "If there is a problem, you failed at your responsibility!" when in fact problems come from many sources, some our fault and some not. Thats not good enough for me. I would rather fix problems.

Fix problems all you like, but why do you feel that you automatically have to give authority to the federal government to do that? You didn't say this outright, but in a discussion of statism, you speak about our system now as if it is somehow incapable of maintaining justice... I can promise you, history agrees with me, more and more centralized authority will not in any way lead to a state that is more just or one that is better able to fix the problems you cite. Realize that powerful central authority, once it has usurped the power, never has to return it and is less accountable to the individual and so it is more susceptable to corruption and liable to represent corporate interests over individual ones.

Life in the US has always been problematic. We have less people dying due to starvation and other preventable problems today. We have more nutritious food available to us at any point in history. We have more wealth than at any point in history. To say that our lives are more problematic now is something that I feel is an untrue statement.

I was talking about our society, but our govermnent. Bureaucratically, our system is more problematic than ever. We have ridiculous debt, corrupt officials--lets just say that the federal governmment is more bloated and wasteful than ever, and now it is so bad that it is starting to really negatively impact the rest of society.