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Why is statist a bad thing?

There are also ends which, if they require dubious means to achieve, are not worth achieving, no matter how nifty they seem.

Imo, it is never a good thing to use negative or questionable means to achieve a desired end. If the desired end requires unethical or illegal means, the end is not worthy.
 
All power is inherently dangerous. Whenever someone has the advantage over another there is potential for abuse. Why is government different?

Because they make the laws. Their role should be to make and insure enforcement, not participate.
 
There are countless examples of government not protecting our rights when corporations and individuals abuse them as well.

Government is imperfect. No surprise there. If you feel that they fail you now why would you give them more power?

By the way: what is an example of a corporation violating a person's rights that there is not already a law against?

Given that some people or organizations have vastly more power than others through things like being able to effectively buy a virdict due to superior lawyers (OJ Simpson trial), or inherent flaws in the some interpretations of the bill of rights (money = speech), we are SOL anyway unless we take power where we can to defend ourselves from other people. At least we can try and influence government to be more just as opposed to individuals and corporations we might not have power over.

There is a huge difference between "influencing government to be more just" and handing over unconstitutional authourity--which, by the way, is the prime tool used by lawyers and corporations to unjustly suppress others.

The problems you are identifying (contributions, bribes, etc) will never be fixed by government action. The only way to fix this is to hold the gov't accountable for taking the money in return for their vote! Money has always been integrated deeply in politics and power, and it always will be.
 
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Government is imperfect. No surprise there. If you feel that they fail you now why would you give them more power?

By the way: what is an example of a corporation violating a person's rights that there is not already a law against?

Before I answer that question, which definition of rights should we use? Natural law, current law (which creates rights, so that would be an impossible argument), what I morally consider to be a right that the government may not recognize?

There is a huge difference between "influencing government to be more just" and handing over unconstitutional authourity--which, by the way, is the prime tool used by lawyers and corporations to unjustly suppress others.

You are right, corporations can use government for oppression, however without regulation, they could also do things like set up company towns and company stores which essentially enslaves people through debt, even though its perfectly constitutional to do so. Its all a matter of which you consider to be a worse situation. Personally even though today has problems, I see it as having fewer than we did in the past.
 
Statism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Ok, so I have seen several posts where someone will dismiss another person's argument because they are a statist, so I looked up the definition and I fail to see why its a basis for dismissing an argument. It looks like another definition of liberalism to me :shrug:

I think you missed the crucial part of that link.


Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The concept of statism, which as seen as synonymous with the concept of nation, and corporatism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.[3]

It's basically a synonym for fascism.
 
I think you missed the crucial part of that link.

It's basically a synonym for fascism.

I think you are right about that Dav. I should have kept reading beyond the initial summary. Yeah, I believe that the people are sovereign.

I guess that means it is not the same as liberalism with another label.
 
Because they make the laws. Their role should be to make and insure enforcement, not participate.
'

They not only make laws, but they can legitimately imprison or SHOOT you if you refuse to comply.
 
I think you are right about that Dav. I should have kept reading beyond the initial summary. Yeah, I believe that the people are sovereign.

I guess that means it is not the same as liberalism with another label.

It's using the mechanism of the state to achieve your desired social/political ends. Fascism could be a form of it, but it doesn't have to get that far.

Liberalism is very comfortable with using the state as a mechanism for social change and social good. Which isn't to say they have bad intent, or that they envision total control. But the more you use the state as your mechanism, the more statist you are.
 
Statism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Ok, so I have seen several posts where someone will dismiss another person's argument because they are a statist, so I looked up the definition and I fail to see why its a basis for dismissing an argument. It looks like another definition of liberalism to me :shrug:


That's part of the problem. Liberalism and Statism have indeed become almost synonymous, but it wasn't always so.

Not so long ago, liberalism was an ideology that promoted individual liberty, moderation in government intervention, and yes even self-reliance.

The classical liberalism of the Founders gradually morphed into a social-welfare statism, and a postive-rights-enforced-through-redistribution-of-wealth ideology that requires an enormous and powerful state to achieve... if it can be achieved at all, which I doubt.

Indeed, in the past 200-odd years the meaning of "liberal" has practically been turned inside-out and upside-down.

So, let's deal with this modern liberalism, which seems to include a heavy dose of statism.

There's only so much economy, and there's only so much power. The more of it gobbled up by Government, the less there is for The People. Only the private sector grows the economy; the government "sector of the economy" is fed by taxes taken from the productive. This retards economic growth when government gets too big, and there's a certain maximum size of government control of the economy beyond which things begin to collapse. This is because the parasite side has grown so large it begins to kill the productive side by sucking all the life out of it.

Many of us think we're not far from that now. Government takes over a third of everything at all levels, and yet a third of our budget is DEBT. That can't go on... but the modern Statists currently running things just keep adding MORE to the budget! You can't keep doing that without causing a collapse, eventually.

With bigger government inevitably comes more regulation and law. Every time a new regulation or law is passed, a choice has been taken out of your hands and made by government... this means less freedom for the individual overall.

Now sometimes certain laws and regulations are truly necessary, because there are some things that can't be left to individual citizens and private organizations. But, most of us that lean to the right interpret "necessary" with a strict interpretation... that is, you've got to PROVE that it really is essential, that the lack of it will do real harm, and that the law/reg will actually make things better and not cause unintended consequences that are really negative. We hold government intervention in citizen's lives and the private sector to a higher standard, in most regards.

That's the longer version than just "oh, that's statism, in brief: No way."
 
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Before I answer that question, which definition of rights should we use? Natural law, current law (which creates rights, so that would be an impossible argument), what I morally consider to be a right that the government may not recognize?

Natural law, or rights as would have generally been recognized by those involved in writing the constitution.

You are right, corporations can use government for oppression, however without regulation, they could also do things like set up company towns and company stores which essentially enslaves people through debt, even though its perfectly constitutional to do so. Its all a matter of which you consider to be a worse situation. Personally even though today has problems, I see it as having fewer than we did in the past.

Some regulation is certainly warranted, but people must also realize that legal transactions, even those that leave themselves in debt, are individual responsibilities. Outright deception, if proven, is an obvious contractual offense, and that is why we have governments, which can interfere on behalf of individuals where an offense has been proven. The system becomes infinitely more problematic when the government can strongarm companies into giving bad loans, or when other businesses are suppressed because a competitor has government regulation on its side via direct interference in business practice without regard to whether or not any actual offense has occured.
 
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Natural law, or rights as would have generally been recognized by those involved in writing the constitution.

Than we are arguing for different things. I feel natural rights are insufficient for a just society. However to answer your question, I cannot because if its enshrined in the constitution, than its illegal to infringe, except for various regulations about how to exercise the right.

Some regulation is certainly warranted, but people must also realize that legal transactions, even those that leave themselves in debt, are individual responsibilities.

I often see the term individual responsibility as something people try to use to blanket over the problems with society so they can declare things to not really be problems. "If there is a problem, you failed at your responsibility!" when in fact problems come from many sources, some our fault and some not. Thats not good enough for me. I would rather fix problems.

Outright deception, if proven, is an obvious contractual offense, and that is why we have governments, which can interfere on behalf of individuals where an offense has been proven. The system becomes infinitely more problematic when the government can strongarm companies into giving bad loans, or when other businesses are suppressed because a competitor has government regulation on its side via direct interference in business practice without regard to whether or not any actual offense has occured.

Life in the US has always been problematic. We have less people dying due to starvation and other preventable problems today. We have more nutritious food available to us at any point in history. We have more wealth than at any point in history. To say that our lives are more problematic now is something that I feel is an untrue statement.
 
A couple of people have touched on every aspect of my opinion already. Statism itself isn't inherently bad, but an all powerful state soon will be, since a state only requires one generation of power mad representatives to grow out of control and violate the individual rights guaranteed in our constitution. This being said I do not believe that a truly benevolent state can ever exist when given too much power and believe that the theories of limited governance pervasive in the 17 and 18 hundreds seem to be proven more and more correct.

My two cents.
 
Than we are arguing for different things. I feel natural rights are insufficient for a just society. However to answer your question, I cannot because if its enshrined in the constitution, than its illegal to infringe, except for various regulations about how to exercise the right.

Natural rights are the only thing just laws can be based on. To protect and promote the rights of the individual, that's the goal of a government. If you make laws against natural rights, you have taken a step towards tyranny, And laws against rights are usually born from some form of statist argument.
 
Natural rights are the only thing just laws can be based on. To protect and promote the rights of the individual, that's the goal of a government. If you make laws against natural rights, you have taken a step towards tyranny, And laws against rights are usually born from some form of statist argument.

Than we will have to leave it at a disagreement.
 
It's part of the belief system that, a centralized state is the cure for what ills the world.
Completely implausible.

Well the true cure is to fix human nature, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon. So we fix what we can :shrug:
 
Well the true cure is to fix human nature, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon. So we fix what we can :shrug:

For everything you "fix" a new problem arises out from unintended consequences.
It like a never ending chain reaction.

Humans largely work things out for themselves without the need of it being specifically "fixed."
 
Well the true cure is to fix human nature, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon. So we fix what we can :shrug:

You can't change human nature without changing what it is to be human. I don't understand why people think it's ok to engineer like this. Everything from thought control to redesigning base humanity I guess is fair game. It's not. You don't "fix" what you can, you work with what you got. Human is human, that's all there is to it. If you "fix" human nature, you've made us something other than human.
 
Than we will have to leave it at a disagreement.

It's sad that you think government should be allowed to transgress against the rights and liberties of the individual.
 
You can't change human nature without changing what it is to be human.

I agree.

I don't understand why people think it's ok to engineer like this. Everything from thought control to redesigning base humanity I guess is fair game. It's not. You don't "fix" what you can, you work with what you got. Human is human, that's all there is to it. If you "fix" human nature, you've made us something other than human.

I see no problem with that. Humanity is flawed. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating force here, but I would have no issues with there being centers in the future that allow parents to fix their children before they are born. That way, you aren't taking anything away from anyone. They start out better.
 
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I see no problem with that. Humanity is flawed.

That's because humanity is a real world device. There is no perfection, there is no infinite. There is only that which is. You want to claim that humanity is flawed because it can't work in these nice little thought experiments of government and social interaction that you want to lay forth. I say your idealization of government and social interaction is what is flawed; not humans. Humans work exactly as nature intended.

am not advocating force here, but I would have no issues with there being centers in the future that allow parents to fix their children before they are born.

No offense, but you're a sick puppy. Mad scientists and super villains the world over are in awe of your statement. "Fix" children. Why are they "broken"? Because they don't fit into your pre-designed schemes? What are we fixing? Making all the kids white? I mean, some may consider that a "fix". Removing aggression? I think you'd **** up well more than you wanted by doing something like that. So what are we "fixing"? Why are you better than nature at dictating what a human should be and what a human should do and what a human should think? The type of control you want over the base of humanity is sick and disturbing! Worse that Gattaca.
 
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That's because humanity is a real world device. There is no perfection, there is no infinite. There is only that which is. You want to claim that humanity is flawed because it can't work in these nice little thought experiments of government and social interaction that you want to lay forth. I say your idealization of government and social interaction is what is flawed; not humans. Humans work exactly as nature intended.

Ahh, the what is natural argument (if people were meant to fly, they would have wings!). Life is life and intelligence is intelligence. Whatever form it takes, for whatever reason, it still is what it is. We are not what nature intended. Either you take the naturalistic approach and accept that there is no overriding intelligence and therefore no intention. Or you take a religious approach and accept that there are flaws as all religions I know of say that there are flaws. Than there is intention but the intention was never that there be flaws. I cannot think of another approach (maybe you can)
 
Ahh, the what is natural argument (if people were meant to fly, they would have wings!). Life is life and intelligence is intelligence. Whatever form it takes, for whatever reason, it still is what it is. We are not what nature intended. Either you take the naturalistic approach and accept that there is no overriding intelligence and therefore no intention. Or you take a religious approach and accept that there are flaws as all religions I know of say that there are flaws. Than there is intention but the intention was never that there be flaws. I cannot think of another approach (maybe you can)

Flying and changing be base set of human interaction and functionality are two very different things. Hell, medical "immortality" and changing the base set of human interaction and functionality are two very different things. We have climbed where we are by that which was given to us by nature. We're just an experiment, nature will know how far intelligence goes when the human race dies out. What you want to do is something far beyond developing a plane. You want to change who we are, social and medical engineer the "perfect" population. That's ****ed up. Those are the dreams of madmen.
 
Flying and changing be base set of human interaction and functionality are two very different things. Hell, medical "immortality" and changing the base set of human interaction and functionality are two very different things. We have climbed where we are by that which was given to us by nature. We're just an experiment, nature will know how far intelligence goes when the human race dies out. What you want to do is something far beyond developing a plane. You want to change who we are, social and medical engineer the "perfect" population. That's ****ed up. Those are the dreams of madmen.

I disagree. Functionality wise, we can do what we can do. When we use tools, such as our hands, our cognition, an airplane, or anything, we are augmenting ourselves. There is no fundamental difference between using tools and any other type of augmentation. Whats ****ed up is to change everything in the world around us and try to leave ourselves alone when technology allows. First of all, barring a catastrophy, technology will continue to progress. We are making advancements everyday in biosciences, cybernetics, AI, and other forms of augmentation or intelligence technology. We are already genetically engineering plants for things like crop yield. We are already attaching prostetics and making them better. We are already making strides in decoding the language of the brain. We are already starting to find ways to enhance ourselves. To sit back and fear it is insane because thats reality today. All I am proposing is using it for the good of humanity to reduce suffering. Look at dogs. We have improved them over the centuries and they still retain their fundamental value. We are monkeys, you said it yourself. We are subject to the same improvement. Look at Africa. Much of the reason those people are suffering is not their fault. Look at the world!

If we can not find a way to fix this ****, our technology and sophistication is of no value.
 
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I disagree. Functionality wise, we can do what we can do. When we use tools, such as our hands, our cognition, an airplane, or anything, we are augmenting ourselves. There is no fundamental difference between using tools and any other type of augmentation. Whats ****ed up is to change everything in the world around us and try to leave ourselves alone when technology allows. First of all, barring a catastrophy, technology will continue to progress. We are making advancements everyday in biosciences, cybernetics, AI, and other forms of augmentation or intelligence technology. We are already genetically engineering plants for things like crop yield. We are already attaching prostetics and making them better. We are already making strides in decoding the language of the brain. We are already starting to find ways to enhance ourselves. To sit back and fear it is insane because thats reality today. All I am proposing is using it for the good of humanity to reduce suffering. Look at Africa. Much of the reason those people are suffering is not their fault. Look at the world!

If we can not find a way to fix this ****, our technology and sophistication is of no value.

Ok. Well stop going to the doctor then. Don't take any medicine. Don't use cars, don't pasteurized products because or technology and sophistication has no value. But I don't think you will, because there's tons of value in what humans have done. But I'm not for changing what it is to be human to fit some mad man's definition of how humans should be. Why do you get to set what we should be anyway? Who the **** made you god? There are plenty of ways to use medicine and technology and understanding to do incredible things. We'll be able to replace lost limbs not far from now. We'll also be able to grow our own organs not far from now. We will find ways to improve our medical conditions, fight diseases, ease suffering, sustain life further. But at no point are we changing what it is to be human. We are still functioning in a manner prescribed by nature. This is what we do. We're not saying "Oh look at all the conflict, well we should mess with our DNA to remove aggression" or **** like that. No, the aggression is important as well, it's what makes us human, it's what motivates us. Aggression is part of competition and competition drives us forward.

I do not think you'll end up with what you want. Like all dreams of madmen, they are doomed to failure. Law of unintended consequences would come in hard on this one. Social and genetic engineering of the human populace is a dangerous, stupid, and maniacal prospect.
 
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