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Why is immigration considered an obligation of a country?

Fishking

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?
 
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Asian countries are for Asians.

African countries are for Africans.

America is for everybody.

You are so right. This bus is more than full. Pro-immigrant naive dupes cannot or will not connect the dots you addressed: more people = lower wages.

The law of supply and demand at work.

Duh.
 

Grand Mal

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

What are you arguing against? Where is thei signifigant number of people who think immigration is a right?
They only exist in your imagination. Unles four is a signifigant amount to you.
 

Tigerace117

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

I'd argue that if a person or group of people face certain death in the home countries---not just looking for better working conditions, but as in "they and their families will die if they stay" then a country has a moral obligation to take them in, so long as it's through legal channels.

Part of the reason Hitler eventually turned to the idea of killing all the Jews, instead of just stealing their stuff and kicking them out, was because nobody wanted to take that many immigrants, especially of a different faith.
 

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Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

I'll skip sharing the brilliant, deep thoughts when it comes to the theories or the legalese of immigration (joke) -- My thoughts here only stem from my belief that I am a worldly person and also take immense joy in traveling the world, interacting with people of different backgrounds, and getting to have fascinating multicultural experiences. There's nothing like getting lost in Paris; or eating at a Hawker market in Singapore until you can't move. Or clubbing in Mexico City with people who speak a different language, or beaching on the Gold Coast in Australia. I live for that type of stuff. Which is what an open and travel-able world has allowed me to do.

I'd like to have that type of world continue. Even more so too. I want to have a world that does not segregate itself based on artificial identities and does not place sovereignty over an individual's ability to travel, work or live where she pleases. I enjoy being empowered to chose my own happiness, and I don't want to be restricted to a the square plot of soil that I happened to be born upon.

So obvious that leads me to being very super pro-immigration.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.
That would be a very bad decision. The world is much more interconnected than I think most people realize. Severing ourselves (Americans) from the course of the world kills that inter-connectivity and deprives us of all of the wealth and human capital that 6.8 billion people have to offer that is not found in just 4% of the population.

We shut our doors and we end up backwards and surpassed by the rest of the world.
 
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chuckiechan

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What our government won't tell us because they consider us too stupid to understand is that we depend on growth, and growth requires consumers, preferably those buying houses, cars, getting married, having kids. We need their high spending rate to afford the retirements and the government.

This why the borders are open. Young, hard working Mexicans popping out children while dad works nights,days, weekends, trying to keep up with the family spending curve. To what end? To raise more taxpayers who get married, have children, and consume as if there is no tomorrow.

We (our leaders) are hooked on a demographic drug.
 

Cyrylek

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts.

Yes. Not a "right" exactly, but a part of what "significant number of people" see as the meaning of America. There is this notion that individual people should not be subjected to force by government (or any entity) unless they harm others. Free movement of capital, goods and people is a natural corollary. Unlike most other countries, ours was founded not on ethnic, religious or territorial commonality, but on adherence to certain principles, of which individual freedom of choice is central. The USA is a fairly unique jurisdiction that did not even have any limitations on immigration for the first hundred years of its existence (until the thuggish unions pushed through the Chinese Exclusion bill).

It is quite ironic that nativists consider themselves super-patriots, while in reality they clamor for turning America into just another socialist nation-state with closed borders, restricted trade and - apparently - a psychotic jerk in the White House.

(Immigration also brings enormous economic and cultural benefits, of course, but that's another issue).
 
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Cyrylek

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more people = lower wages.

The law of supply and demand at work.

Duh.

Ah, of course! It is all a zero-sum game, these immigrants are not creating any values, only participate in redistribution. Nonsense, but revealing nonsense. Socialist mentality, as I said.
 

Aunt Spiker

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

Yeah sure - it's not important or really right. East Berlin can tell you all about the reasons why not, and so can S. Korea, Japan and other countries that resist an influx of new citizens.

It's a sign of good faith, really: allowing freedom for citizens and others to choose to live there or not. When they choose you, it says a lot of positives about you. And if you can support an immigrant population, it means your country is stronger.

When a country begins to buckle down on immigration it's usually a sign that there's actual trouble with the populous or other issue. It's not a GOOD thing, per say.
 

Gaztopian

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This obligation towards immigration, mainly be observed in the U.S, Canada, and Europe, is just moral camouflage readily deployed to conceal needs that may be unsavory for the populace. In the U.S, foreign cheap unskilled and skilled labor contributes to the country's economic supremacy, but the rulers would find it difficult to tell the population that we're importing labor with the caveat that it'll drive wages down, or that you're not as clever as you've been made to believe. In Europe, immigration is nothing short of a necessity to maintain populations, but the rulers would find it difficult to tell the people that we're on a path of extinction, and because we believe we can't rely on you to sustain the country's population, we're going to import more people.
 

dimensionallava

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

more importantly, why do you have the right to tell other people they cant come to america because you got here first?

human migration has existed for tens of thousands of years, and its not going to stop just because you dont like the color of new immigrants, I really despise people who say they hate "illegal immigration" when everyone knows they just hate mexicans. If we were seeing massive amounts of immigrants from scandinavia the right wing wouldn't care, it wouldnt even make the news much less become the fake political issue it is today
 

joG

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I've been puzzling over this concept. There seems to be a significant number of people who believe that immigration is a right of some sorts. Why? Why does a country even have to let a single immigrant in? As far as the U.S., we already have a ton of diversity so it's not like we are struggling on that end.

We keep hearing about people complaining about stagnant wages but we grow our population via immigration when we could reduce it. If you want an easy way to increase wages, shrink the labor pool so employers have to fight over hiring people vice 50 people applying for the same job and the one who makes it is thankful to be getting a paycheck at all.

Obviously, there are times when immigration is advantageous but there is never a time when it would be good to have totally open immigration but that's besides the point.

Why is a country considered horrible if they just don't do immigration? Any POVs from the super pro immigration people out there that have defined thoughts on this?

I have seen Americans not of immigrant stock and have actually known two.
 

joG

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What are you arguing against? Where is thei signifigant number of people who think immigration is a right?
They only exist in your imagination. Unles four is a signifigant amount to you.

That is quite true in my opinion. There are, however, two qualifications I would note.
-We associate free movement and settlement as rather important rights for citizens with the implication of being near a human right in importance.
-Economics does indicate that free movement would optimize the economic welfare of a system, if transaction costs were zero and there were no overriding external costs.
 
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Ah, of course! It is all a zero-sum game, these immigrants are not creating any values, only participate in redistribution. Nonsense, but revealing nonsense. Socialist mentality, as I said.

You got it right, even using sarcasm. It is a zero sum game, but for a 2% growth. If there is a job opening and a hundred applicants, one will get it and the 99 will go home jobless. Got it?

Why do you think the wages have been stagnant for decades? How about that supply and demand law? Or did the pro-immigration nuts abolish that law?

H1B immigrants from India replacing American workers are brought here for only one purpose: to lower the wages in the IT business, not because we lack the talent.

In fact, before an H1B Indian can do his job, the American who will lose his because he makes too much, has to train that Indian.

The H1B scam is justified by one big fat lie: we can't find qualified workers.

If the ad says, Ph. D. in computer science wanted. Starting salary 35k, no wonder they don't get any applicants within the U.S.

Duh!
 

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I am very much PRO immigration. We are a nation of immigrants, are we not?
What I am against is illegal immigration. I refuse to respect illegals and those who make excuses for them. This braking in, squatting and demanding has gotten out of hand. It is despicable.
 
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I am very much PRO immigration. We are a nation of immigrants, are we not?

Cute one-liner without substance, since you didn't pre-qualify it with that only some immigrants are good immigrants.

Unskilled immigrants with four kids and two old and sickly parents are very bad immigrants. A single, highly educated immigrant is a good immigrant.

Add what they produce and what they cost the U.S. taxpayers and you will very quickly see why. Yes, you were a nation of immigrants when they were a net asset, not a net liability, and would come here to work, not to be on welfare.

If all immigrants are such a treasure, why is the U.S. practically the only one in the immigration business?

Why are the source countries not trying to stop the outflow, but, instead, they do their damnest to push their surplus people out to "America"?

You know why? It's because, as opposed to the "brain drain" days, the new unskilled immigrants are the people no other country wants.

Today, Cubans are the prime example.
 

Lovebug

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Cute one-liner without substance, since you didn't pre-qualify it with that only some immigrants are good immigrants.

Unskilled immigrants with four kids and two old and sickly parents are very bad immigrants. A single, highly educated immigrant is a good immigrant.

Add what they produce and what they cost the U.S. taxpayers and you will very quickly see why. Yes, you were a nation of immigrants when they were a net asset, not a net liability, and would come here to work, not to be on welfare.

If all immigrants are such a treasure, why is the U.S. practically the only one in the immigration business?

Why are the source countries not trying to stop the outflow, but, instead, they do their damnest to push their surplus people out to "America"?

You know why? It's because, as opposed to the "brain drain" days, the new unskilled immigrants are the people no other country wants.

Today, Cubans are the prime example.

Enough! Stop all immigration!??? Should we throw out a few from years back too?
 

matchlight

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Part of the reason Hitler eventually turned to the idea of killing all the Jews, instead of just stealing their stuff and kicking them out, was because nobody wanted to take that many immigrants, especially of a different faith.

Can you provide any evidence for that?
 
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... why do you have the right to tell other people they cant come to america because you got here first?

For the same reason why I allowed some people into my new house and closed the door when the last one permitted walked in.

What you are pushing is the law of the jungle. Well, newsflash! The U.S. in no longer a jungle.

It has a legally recognized government, its laws, and defined borders which it is allowed to control to the exclusion of anyone or any group the president does not like.

BTW, to prevent a lengthy discussion of this subject, the president is authorized by Congress to discriminate against any immigrants on any basis he sees fit and the would-be immigrants have absolutely no rights to legally challenge his decisions.

Hopefully, you can now better see the difference between a jungle and a sovereign country.
 
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Enough! Stop all immigration!??? Should we throw out a few from years back too?

If they broke applicable laws - absolutely yes.

Now that we disposed of that one, would you care to show where in my last two posts I was wrong?
 
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Lovebug

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If they broke applicable laws - absolutely yes.

So you missed the part where I mentioned ILLEGAL immigration. I am for the rule of law, I also know that we are a land made up of immigrants. Without immigrants, we would not be here.
 

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more importantly, why do you have the right to tell other people they cant come to america because you got here first?

I guess what you are really asking is 'Does a sovereign nation have the right to control whom enters its country / territory?'

On that count, I'd have to respond 'Most certainly'.

human migration has existed for tens of thousands of years, and its not going to stop just because you dont like the color of new immigrants, I really despise people who say they hate "illegal immigration" when everyone knows they just hate mexicans. If we were seeing massive amounts of immigrants from scandinavia the right wing wouldn't care, it wouldnt even make the news much less become the fake political issue it is today

Yes, human migrations have existed for tens of thousands of years, most of which was before sovereign nations were established. Now that they have been established, the situation in which previous human migrations have occurred no longer exists and cannot continue as they have been.

As for the rest, I guess you are seeing whatever it is that you want to see. I'm not convinced that it's really there, and if it is in fact there, it's a miniscule percentage.
 

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more importantly, why do you have the right to tell other people they cant come to america because you got here first?

human migration has existed for tens of thousands of years, and its not going to stop just because you dont like the color of new immigrants, I really despise people who say they hate "illegal immigration" when everyone knows they just hate mexicans. If we were seeing massive amounts of immigrants from scandinavia the right wing wouldn't care, it wouldnt even make the news much less become the fake political issue it is today

All you are saying by that is that U.S. immigration laws were inspired by hatred of Mexicans. But what if they were? The American people, whose votes those laws represent, are perfectly free to hate the living guts of any group of aliens, and to exclude them from U.S. territory for no reason other than they hate them. The authority of any nation to control its borders is an integral part of its sovereignty, and it does not need to justify the decision to exclude any alien to anyone.
 

Fishking

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What are you arguing against? Where is thei signifigant number of people who think immigration is a right?
They only exist in your imagination. Unles four is a signifigant amount to you.

If they only exist in my imagination then why is there always a large amount of outrage at any attempts to reduce immigration?
 
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