Why I Shop At Wal-mart Despite My Progressive Politics

[ludahai]

I like the slogan - Always Low Wages - Always.

STOP the PRESSES!!! We actually AGREE on something. This proves that miracles ARE possible. :shock:

 

[ludahai]

Walmart sucks. Their employees are paid next to nothing and many products they sell are total crap. Although I can't say I've never shopped there...

I agree with you on this one. Quality sucks, their treatment of workers sucks (I worked there part time for a short time while in college - BIG mistake.) Look at how many of their "goods" are made in China. You want to buy crap, support a company who treats their workers as disposible cogs, and support the tyrants in Peiping, go right on shopping at Wal Mart. Not to mention the way Wal-Mart depresses wages to get their low prices. Total scum.

 

[nopartytravis]

Walmart doesn't just have a low price machine that they send items through and they come out costing less than other stores...those lower prices come from the cost of production and the volume at which those products are bought. High production, especially in places like China, comes at a really high price for those who do the producing. Mass production almost inevidably causes externalities (pollution, poor working conditions, whatever) that are dealt with unless producers are forced to deal with them, which costs more money to produce something...low, low prices tell me one of two things, something's fishy about the method in which a product was produced or they're a whole lot of something that no one wants...some domestic products, such as the Minute maid OJ I saw on another post, may cost lower at Walmart because of the retail exposure Walmart offers which is a result of its popularity, not the above mentioned costs.

I think there is also an issue with resource allocation here...those low, low prices encourage lots of people to buy from the same place. This empowers the same people (the owners, and, hopefully, employees, but mostly owners) and leaves the local businesses out to dry. This not only shuts down local business, but creates barriers for the opening of new local businesses. To compete, one must acquire huge amounts of capital that are scarcely found in small town America. This means all those resources (our money) are being allocated to a very few people instead of empowering those that might have an interest in the local community besides profit margins.

Last, I think Walmart is a natural growth of our consumer mentality. Many define themselves by their purchases more than anything else. What they own is who they are...and many also see seeking and paying the lowest prices possible on consumer goods, most of which goods we could do without completely, as a fundamental right assured to all mankind (who can afford even the low prices). Consumer freedom seems to be the only freedom Americans are concerned about any more. No matter the political party, even the supporters of the "3rd" parties, everyone can agree that shopping is good and paying the lowest price possible is even better. This is the way our weekends are spent and it's what we toil for on a day to day basis. I realize these are sweeping generalizations, but this IS a consumer society...how many commerials have you seen today? I hope we can learn soon that we'd be better off saving a little money every now and then instead of buying more stuff because everything is so cheap. We should at least take a critical look at the way we live and what we live for...these issues, of prices and resource allocation ultimately boil down to these questions and I've seen little to no discussion on this point in this and many other areas of life/public policy.

 

[128shot]

you can work at wal-mart at 8 an hour, this would be a very good wage if your total gross wasn't chopped in half by taxes.

 

[Pancho Angry]

Walmart doesn't just have a low price machine that they send items through and they come out costing less than other stores...

"High production, especially in places like China, comes at a really high price for those who do the producing."
And yet just TRY taking away their sweatshops. The key question is, are they better off? They'll tell you YES.

"...low, low prices tell me one of two things, something's fishy about the method in which a product was produced or they're a whole lot of something that no one wants."
Ever hear of an uneven playing field? Used to be countries had to negotiate for decent terms of trade. Now it's set by fiat because there's no real 'market' for foreign currency no matter what they tell you, much to the misery of BILLIONS. The rich countries could care less whether the starving billions are miserable or not, and, in fact, if THEY stand to lose, they'll fix it so that they STAY miserable.

"I think there is also an issue with resource allocation here..."
Yeah but on a far grander scale than you're contemplating. Do you really think sitting behind a desk watching the ticker tape deserves a big slice of the pie? Do you know it was recently reported that the SECRETARIES at Goldman-Sachs earned over $500,000?

"...leaves the local businesses out to dry. This not only shuts down local business, but creates barriers for the opening of new local businesses."
It's irrational for me to care. My INCOME dictates the kind of establishment I need to frequent. If you want high margin businesses to thrive, mandate higher wages so that I can afford to buy there. Otherwise Mr. Shop Keeper can go dumpster diving for all I care.

"We should at least take a critical look at the way we live and what we live for...these issues, of prices and resource allocation ultimately boil down to these questions and I've seen little to no discussion on this point in this and many other areas of life/public policy."
There's no reason to allow the moneymen little or no downside. Work against high interest rates! Work against this obsession with finance over industry and ingenuity! Squeeze CEO, banker and politician salaries and see how quickly they straighten things out. Stay asleep at the wheel, and your kids will be paying the price.

 

[aquapub]

I have researched the well-funded assault on Wal-mart. It is largely a false, outrageously hypocritical smokescreen meant to retaliate against Wal-Mart for flipping the bird to economy-raping labor unions.

Each and every accusation that has "surfaced" portraying Wal-Mart as a Disney Villain has come from unions and union-funded groups-which already brings their assault to nearly ZERO credibility for those of us who know anything about unions-beyond their promotional rhetoric.

Example:

The socialist maker of the debunked liberal propaganda flic, "Outfoxed," Robert Greenwald, has joined forces with several labor unions, led by the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, and set his sites on Wal-mart, a sensible target for anyone bent on punishing success.

In it...

1) they tell the story of Tod Hunter, a small businessman who had operated a Mom and Pop place called, "H&H Hardware" since 1962. The movie talks about him being put out of business by the arrival of Wal-Mart. The only problem with this is that he went out of business 3 months before Wal-Mart came to his town. In an interview with Byron York, he said openly that his bankruptcy had nothing to do with Wal-Mart. Like Michael Moore, Like Outfoxed, they never let the facts get in the way.

2) they use labor union-funded (hence, biased as Hell) "studies" showing that Wal-Mart drives down wages, but never mentioned how that evens out with the dramatically increased buying power of the consumer that they create.

3) they even resorted (as in their other hack films) to demonizing Wal-Mart over irrelevant crap like their parking lot security!?!??! They claimed that Wal-Mart has a lot more crime occur in their parking lots, but they fail to mention that Wal-Mart has 100 million customers a week- way more than anyone else....more people, more crime....it's a statistical guarantee.

This film is a joke and Greenwald needs to be exposed for the conniving, deceptive worm he is.

The vast majority of the accusations I've checked out have been outright fabrications or gross exaggerations.


And the kicker? It is not companies like Wal-Mart we need to be blaming for the rampant outsourcing of jobs to China. It is the sleazy labor unions who perpetually, frivolously, senselessly drive up the cost of hiring American workers until companies have no choice but to move overseas.

Federal laws now exist to cover everything unions were created for. All they do now is serve themselves while the country, AND the worker gets screwed.

 

[hipsterdufus]

STOP the PRESSES!!! We actually AGREE on something. This proves that miracles ARE possible. :shock:

I don't believe in miracles.

 

[RealmOfThePureForms]

I have researched the well-funded assault on Wal-mart.

The vast majority of the accusations I've checked out have been outright fabrications or gross exaggerations.


And the kicker? It is not companies like Wal-Mart we need to be blaming for the rampant outsourcing of jobs to China. It is the sleazy labor unions who perpetually, frivolously, senselessly drive up the cost of hiring American workers until companies have no choice but to move overseas.

This isn't about politics. This isn't a left or right issue. Corporations are much MUCH deeper than politics.

When we talk about corporations, you are no longer talking about politics. Not since the fateful year of 1886 when the Supreme Court Case of Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Bell Railroad Company took place.

Corporations are people, protected under the 14th amendment which was created to protect freed slaves. Since the creation of the 14th amendment nearly all cases brought to the Supreme Court were by corporations.

Like people, corporations have sought to preserve themselves. Well not exactly like people, more like people who fit the DMS-4 criteria for psychopaths.

Corporations fit the following profile. Under US law the only goal of a corporation is to make profit for its shareholders. Because of this fact, all of the following traits can be found in the corporate structure itself acting as a single entity in much the same way our cells cause us to act as a single entity. The individual cells might not be evil, just as the individual corporate worker might not be, but the end result, the person- the corporate entity is infact evil.

You can find the following traits in evey mega-corporation from Home Depot to Wal-Mart.


Interpersonal

* Glibness/superficial charm
* Egocentricity/Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Conning/Manipulative

Major example - Wal-Mart used to call itself American on tv and tell consumers everything was 100% made in the USA. They would gloat on TV in their commercials how they supported American industry with big American flags in the backround. Then it was discovered that Wal-Marts largest manufacturing plants were in China, where workers were using chemical paints to build toys and were not given any kind of face masks to protect them. Many of them received brain damage and Wal-Mart would throw them out on the street the minute they could no longer do their job. Wal-Mart struck a deal with the Chinese government that allowed them to pay the Chinese workers less than the minimum wage of 33 cents in China. Most of the workers lived in small shacks 11 or more workers to a shack. They were also forced to pay Wal-Mart rent which amounted to over 5 dollars a week.

Meanwhile Wal-Mart continued to be the psychopathic manipulator putting on it's pro-American family values commercials tricking Americans into thinking this is a good place to go.


Affective

* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Callous/Lack of empathy
* Shallow affect
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions


In 1994, General Motors was sued because on Christmas Day 1993 a mother with her four children in the car was hit from behind while stopped at a stop light, causing her gas tank of her 1979 Chevy Malibu to explode, burning and badly disfiguring all five of them. During the trial, a report was introduced showing that GM knew the gas tank was set so far back that it could explode on impact, killing the car’s occupants. In fact, about five hundred people were being killed this way at the time of the report in 1973 when the new Malibu style cars were being planned. He figured that each fatality could cost the company $200,000 in legal damages, then divided the figure by 41 million, the number of cars GM had on the road. The engineer concluded that each death cost GM only $2.40 per automobile. The cost of ensuring that fuel tanks did not explode in crashes was estimated to be $8.59 per car. That meant the company could save $6.19 per car if it let people die in fuel-fed fires rather than alter the design of vehicles to avoid such fires. (Bakan, pp. 61-63)


Lifestyle


* Parasitic lifestyle
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility

During world war 2 IBM sold a special kind of punch card system to Nazi Germany which was the precursor to cpus. This punch card system allowed the Nazis to more accurately keep track of prisoner detention and prisoner extermination. Hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers were more effectively rounded up and exterminated thanks to IBM and their million dollar contract with the Nazis.

You are a fool if you believe corporations are good for society. Capitalism is evil in it's very nature. It is the soylent green of mankind. You only get a byproduct of success by sacrificing the lives of millions of helpless people who have no means of escaping the grips of these monters.

Corporations have no allegience to the country they were formed in either. I'll repeat that again NO ALLEGIENCE.

"Franklin Roosevelt was president, and he was bringing government regulations in to stop the disastrous greed of the wealthiest corporations and individuals. Big business hated him. In fact, big business was in love with fascism at the time. In 1934, Fortune magazine had a cover story extolling the virtues of fascism and the economic miracles Mussolini had achieved in lowering wages, crushing worker unions, and creating greater profits for the corporations.

On August 22nd of 1934, General Butler was approached in a hotel room in Philadelphia by a messenger of a group of wealthy businessmen, who opened a large suitcase of $1000 bills and dumped it on the bed, explaining that this was only a down payment. The business interests wanted General Butler to assemble a volunteer army, take over the White House, and install himself as the fascist dictator of the United States, with the financial support of big business. Some observers believe that if they had picked a different general, it may well have worked. Butler refused, and told the story.

In 1934, the business interests believed they would have to use military force to take over the government, dismantle democracy, and install a form of fascist government doing the will of the richest corporations and individuals in America, to the degradation or destruction of everyone else. This was the invasion of the body snatchers, coming closer than we can know to succeeding.

“Today, seventy years after the failed coup, a well-organized minority again threatens democracy. Corporate America’s long and patient campaign to gain control of government over the last few decades, much quieter and ultimately more effective than the plotters’ clumsy attempts, is now succeeding. Without bloodshed, armies, or fascist strongmen, and using dollars rather than bullets, corporations are now poised to win what the plotters so desperately wanted: freedom from democratic control.” (p. 95)

And their reach is now worldwide. The World Trade Organization, which Clinton had created in 1993, has already sued or threatened to sue nations, including ours, for safety or environmental laws that cut into the corporation’s profits. In 2005, their full power will come into effect, enabling them to prevent governments from enacting environmental or health regulations that would unduly impede their profits. (Bakan, p. 23)

NAFTA, another Clinton creation, was an investor protection plan enabling corporations to use cheap labor to force American wages down, break unions, and steal jobs from the U.S. society by the hundreds of thousands, “out-sourcing” them to cheap labor markets around the world in order to let rich corporations and individuals get richer by destroying the lives of American and other workers, gutting entire societies, then leaving their husk and blowing on to drain the life from another society, exactly like the invasion of the body snatchers. "


And you think this is a union plot? You need to wake up. This is beyond politics. This is about an all consuming monster who destroys individuals, towns, environments, and nations. Capitalism cannot survive. In order to do so it must constantly expand and consume more and more. If it does not, then the stocks do not climb, then the shareholders stop buying stocks, then the companies lose their money, then they can no longer function.

For this reason, capitalism is a monster that must endlessly consume in order to survive, and anyone that gets in its way is doomed. Capitalism is not the future of mankind and one day will be looked at as a barbaric time in human history in which mankind lost his self in a whirlwind of greed and exploitation.

 

[Arkansas]

I avoid shopping at WalMart because there are too many customers in there that remind me how apelike the human race is. And ratlike. Have you noticed what true human filth is attracted to WalMart? It's creepy.

And no I'm not talking about the 'poor.' I'm not rich, but I know what laundry detergent and toothpaste are for.

------- Leave my store alone. -----
--Sam ( Rollback ) Walton

 

[LeftyHenry]

This isn't about politics. This isn't a left or right issue. Corporations are much MUCH deeper than politics.

When we talk about corporations, you are no longer talking about politics. Not since the fateful year of 1886 when the Supreme Court Case of Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Bell Railroad Company took place.

Corporations are people, protected under the 14th amendment which was created to protect freed slaves. Since the creation of the 14th amendment nearly all cases brought to the Supreme Court were by corporations.

Like people, corporations have sought to preserve themselves. Well not exactly like people, more like people who fit the DMS-4 criteria for psychopaths.

Corporations fit the following profile. Under US law the only goal of a corporation is to make profit for its shareholders. Because of this fact, all of the following traits can be found in the corporate structure itself acting as a single entity in much the same way our cells cause us to act as a single entity. The individual cells might not be evil, just as the individual corporate worker might not be, but the end result, the person- the corporate entity is infact evil.

You can find the following traits in evey mega-corporation from Home Depot to Wal-Mart.


Interpersonal

* Glibness/superficial charm
* Egocentricity/Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Conning/Manipulative

Major example - Wal-Mart used to call itself American on tv and tell consumers everything was 100% made in the USA. They would gloat on TV in their commercials how they supported American industry with big American flags in the backround. Then it was discovered that Wal-Marts largest manufacturing plants were in China, where workers were using chemical paints to build toys and were not given any kind of face masks to protect them. Many of them received brain damage and Wal-Mart would throw them out on the street the minute they could no longer do their job. Wal-Mart struck a deal with the Chinese government that allowed them to pay the Chinese workers less than the minimum wage of 33 cents in China. Most of the workers lived in small shacks 11 or more workers to a shack. They were also forced to pay Wal-Mart rent which amounted to over 5 dollars a week.

Meanwhile Wal-Mart continued to be the psychopathic manipulator putting on it's pro-American family values commercials tricking Americans into thinking this is a good place to go.


Affective

* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Callous/Lack of empathy
* Shallow affect
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions


In 1994, General Motors was sued because on Christmas Day 1993 a mother with her four children in the car was hit from behind while stopped at a stop light, causing her gas tank of her 1979 Chevy Malibu to explode, burning and badly disfiguring all five of them. During the trial, a report was introduced showing that GM knew the gas tank was set so far back that it could explode on impact, killing the car’s occupants. In fact, about five hundred people were being killed this way at the time of the report in 1973 when the new Malibu style cars were being planned. He figured that each fatality could cost the company $200,000 in legal damages, then divided the figure by 41 million, the number of cars GM had on the road. The engineer concluded that each death cost GM only $2.40 per automobile. The cost of ensuring that fuel tanks did not explode in crashes was estimated to be $8.59 per car. That meant the company could save $6.19 per car if it let people die in fuel-fed fires rather than alter the design of vehicles to avoid such fires. (Bakan, pp. 61-63)


Lifestyle


* Parasitic lifestyle
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility

During world war 2 IBM sold a special kind of punch card system to Nazi Germany which was the precursor to cpus. This punch card system allowed the Nazis to more accurately keep track of prisoner detention and prisoner extermination. Hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers were more effectively rounded up and exterminated thanks to IBM and their million dollar contract with the Nazis.

You are a fool if you believe corporations are good for society. Capitalism is evil in it's very nature. It is the soylent green of mankind. You only get a byproduct of success by sacrificing the lives of millions of helpless people who have no means of escaping the grips of these monters.

Corporations have no allegience to the country they were formed in either. I'll repeat that again NO ALLEGIENCE.

"Franklin Roosevelt was president, and he was bringing government regulations in to stop the disastrous greed of the wealthiest corporations and individuals. Big business hated him. In fact, big business was in love with fascism at the time. In 1934, Fortune magazine had a cover story extolling the virtues of fascism and the economic miracles Mussolini had achieved in lowering wages, crushing worker unions, and creating greater profits for the corporations.

On August 22nd of 1934, General Butler was approached in a hotel room in Philadelphia by a messenger of a group of wealthy businessmen, who opened a large suitcase of $1000 bills and dumped it on the bed, explaining that this was only a down payment. The business interests wanted General Butler to assemble a volunteer army, take over the White House, and install himself as the fascist dictator of the United States, with the financial support of big business. Some observers believe that if they had picked a different general, it may well have worked. Butler refused, and told the story.

In 1934, the business interests believed they would have to use military force to take over the government, dismantle democracy, and install a form of fascist government doing the will of the richest corporations and individuals in America, to the degradation or destruction of everyone else. This was the invasion of the body snatchers, coming closer than we can know to succeeding.

“Today, seventy years after the failed coup, a well-organized minority again threatens democracy. Corporate America’s long and patient campaign to gain control of government over the last few decades, much quieter and ultimately more effective than the plotters’ clumsy attempts, is now succeeding. Without bloodshed, armies, or fascist strongmen, and using dollars rather than bullets, corporations are now poised to win what the plotters so desperately wanted: freedom from democratic control.” (p. 95)

And their reach is now worldwide. The World Trade Organization, which Clinton had created in 1993, has already sued or threatened to sue nations, including ours, for safety or environmental laws that cut into the corporation’s profits. In 2005, their full power will come into effect, enabling them to prevent governments from enacting environmental or health regulations that would unduly impede their profits. (Bakan, p. 23)

NAFTA, another Clinton creation, was an investor protection plan enabling corporations to use cheap labor to force American wages down, break unions, and steal jobs from the U.S. society by the hundreds of thousands, “out-sourcing” them to cheap labor markets around the world in order to let rich corporations and individuals get richer by destroying the lives of American and other workers, gutting entire societies, then leaving their husk and blowing on to drain the life from another society, exactly like the invasion of the body snatchers. "


And you think this is a union plot? You need to wake up. This is beyond politics. This is about an all consuming monster who destroys individuals, towns, environments, and nations. Capitalism cannot survive. In order to do so it must constantly expand and consume more and more. If it does not, then the stocks do not climb, then the shareholders stop buying stocks, then the companies lose their money, then they can no longer function.

For this reason, capitalism is a monster that must endlessly consume in order to survive, and anyone that gets in its way is doomed. Capitalism is not the future of mankind and one day will be looked at as a barbaric time in human history in which mankind lost his self in a whirlwind of greed and exploitation.

:applaud :agree That's the perfect post, I bet if people actually knew the conditions that Wal-Mart workers work under, they wouldn't shop in that shithole.It's disgusting, and we're supposed to be the country that is human rights orientated? The worst part is that We subidize Wal-Mart for this! Over a billion dollars a year of your money! Wal-Mart is also a proud sponsor of Child Labor.

Wal-Mart has also been fined $205,650 for 1,436 violations of child labor laws in Maine for the period 1995 to 1998. The settlement represents the largest number of citations as well as the largest fine ever issued by the Maine Department of Labor for child labor violations. (Bureau of Business Practice News)

Wal-Mart; always abuses workers, always

 

[Spartacus FPV]

For this reason, capitalism is a monster that must endlessly consume in order to survive, and anyone that gets in its way is doomed. Capitalism is not the future of mankind and one day will be looked at as a barbaric time in human history in which mankind lost his self in a whirlwind of greed and exploitation.

Then what is the future of mankind? How else will men be able to produce and exchange value for value?

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

Lachean,

Then what is the future of mankind? How else will men be able to produce and exchange value for value?

I belive they wish us to return to the good old days. I'll give five apples for two chickens.

 

[RealmOfThePureForms]

Lachean,



I belive they wish us to return to the good old days. I'll give five apples for two chickens.

As opposed to the bad modern days where people sell their minds, hearts, and souls, to ruthless amoral corporations in exchange for all the lies they tell us.

At least we are trying to make changes and have taken the time to do the research and understand the problem at hand. That is more than I can say for apathetic people like you who just sit their making snide comments. With an attitude like yours, nothing will ever change and we will just continue to degenerate as a society.

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

As opposed to the bad modern days where people sell their minds, hearts, and souls, to ruthless amoral corporations in exchange for all the lies they tell us.

At least we are trying to make changes and have taken the time to do the research and understand the problem at hand. That is more than I can say for apathetic people like you who just sit their making snide comments. With an attitude like yours, nothing will ever change and we will just continue to degenerate as a society.

Sure. Lets just become socialist where everyone works for the betterment of society as a whole. That is a pipe dream. Where's my keys? I'm going to Wally World to support capitalism!!

 

[aquapub]

This isn't about politics. This isn't a left or right issue. Corporations are much MUCH deeper than politics.

Liberals oppose corporations and sell the idea that poor people are owed the rich's wealth. Republicans are for sane, reasonable capitalism.

This very much IS a political issue.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Sure. Lets just become socialist where everyone works for the betterment of society as a whole. That is a pipe dream. Where's my keys? I'm going to Wally World to support capitalism!!

Ah! That makes sense now. Since Mr. Blue Collar Joe who has read and studied marx and his works has said from his expert and educated postion that socialism is a dream than I guess my entire arguement has been debunked :roll:

BTW In debates, usually you try to give a little more than 'it's a dream'.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

.....And the kicker? It is not companies like Wal-Mart we need to be blaming for the rampant outsourcing of jobs to China. It is the sleazy labor unions who perpetually, frivolously, senselessly drive up the cost of hiring American workers until companies have no choice but to move overseas.

Federal laws now exist to cover everything unions were created for. All they do now is serve themselves while the country, AND the worker gets screwed.

Folks, here you have it, the text book Cheap Labor Conservative. Manufacturing jobs are going to China because a 12 year old in China will work for quite a lot less than even what minimum wage is here. My Dad worked for one of those "sleazy labor unions" for his whole life. You know how many sick days he took in some 30 years? The answer is 4. His daddie worked for one of those "sleazy labor unions" as well. My Paw Paw grew up picking cotton living in homes that did not even have a floor in them. When he got own in the 40s with Reynolds Metal, he gave that company all he had until the day he retired. In over 40 years he took a total of 5 sick days. The vast majority of those in America that are or did work in union jobs are just like they are, they bust their *** for the companies they work for, and they work harder and better than anyone else on God's green earth. The fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you work, no matter what you do, you cannot compete with what amounts to practically slave labor.

Do you have any idea why those federal labor laws exist? Because the unions fought to get them on the books. If it were not for unions, there would be no 40 hour work week, company medical insurance, weekends off, or holidays off. Are unions perfect? Of course not, but they fight to keep a lot of jobs here in America. Hell if it were not for unions, their would not be a manufacturing job left in the United States. Like I say, unions are not perfect, some have even been corrupt, but on balance, we are better off with them than without them. With few exceptions, about the only people I have ever known that were anti-union are the kind of people who grew up having every thing handed to them in life and who never had to stretch a dollar or work a back breaking day in their life.

Unions don't like Walmart because Walmart is a terrible company to work for that forces its suppliers to produce its products at such a low price that no one in America could possibly produce for so little. The numbers of good jobs in America that Walmart has probably destroyed in one way or the the other probably numbers in the millions. Go ahead and defend them though. Defend there deplorable labor practices, and defend the child labor who produces their products.

 

[BWG]

Folks, here you have it, the text book Cheap Labor Conservative.

...<snip>...

Defend there deplorable labor practices, and defend the child labor who produces their products.

:good_job:

 

[RealmOfThePureForms]

Even our founders opposed the kind of capitalism we see today. They were not fleeing England so much for religious freedom as they were freedom from the kings corporations. To everyone who thinks Wal-Mart is good you need to WAKE UP and get an education. You uneducated people are destroying your own livelihoods while people like us are trying to make your lives better. If you will not help yourselves how the hell can we possibly help you.


If the American people ever allow private banks to
control the issue of their money, first by inflation
and then by deflation, the banks and corporations
that will grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property until their
children will wake up homeless on the continent
their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson


I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. - Thomas Jefferson

More great men who understood.

"This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. [...] An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career." ~ Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?

"If a Martian were asked to pick the most efficient and humane economic systems on earth, it would certainly not choose the countries which rely most on markets. The United States is a stagnant economy in which real wages have been constant for more than a decade and the real income of the bottom 40 percent of the population declined. It is an inhumane society in which 11.5 percent of the population, some 32 million people, including 20 percent of all children, live in absolute poverty. It is the oldest democracy on earth but also one with the lowest voting rates among democracies and the highest per capita prison population in the world. The fastest developing countries in the world today are among those where the state pursues active industrial and trade policies; the few countries in the world in which almost no one is poor today are those in which the state has been engaged in massive social welfare and labor market policies." ~ Adam Przeworski

Adam Smith, the man all the capitalists quote as a founder of Capitalism never spoke a word of it in any of his written works and was actually opposed to corporations running amuck without laws.

"Adam Smith saw society as becoming naturally harmonious through the intense dependence of each person on the labour of every other person and taught that the propensity to "truck, barter and exchange" led to people serving their own interests best by serving the interests of others from whom they needed daily necessities.

That is his true legacy, the melding of his moral sentiments with liberty, justice and his economics. It is time his legacy was claimed back. "

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all." ~ Adam Smith

"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind." ~ Adam Smith

When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession -as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life-will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease ... But beware! The time for all this is not yet. For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still. For only they can lead us out of the tunnel of economic necessity into daylight.

* (JMK, CW, IX, pp.329, 331), Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren (1930), Skidelky (quoting Keynes)

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

Ah! That makes sense now. Since Mr. Blue Collar Joe who has read and studied marx and his works has said from his expert and educated postion that socialism is a dream than I guess my entire arguement has been debunked :roll:

BTW In debates, usually you try to give a little more than 'it's a dream'.

Socialism has not yet been successful, nor will it be. By the text book, it should be a perfect, utopian government system. But once the human element is put within it, it bottoms out rapidly.
I don't need to waste my time finding links to debunk socialism outside a classroom. You want to prove it works so well, you are the one defending it.
As for Wal-Mart, they are consumer based. Thus, they will fight to get prices driven down. That is part of the aspect of capitalism.

Folks, here you have it, the text book Cheap Labor Conservative. Manufacturing jobs are going to China because a 12 year old in China will work for quite a lot less than even what minimum wage is here. My Dad worked for one of those "sleazy labor unions" for his whole life. You know how many sick days he took in some 30 years? The answer is 4. His daddie worked for one of those "sleazy labor unions" as well. My Paw Paw grew up picking cotton living in homes that did not even have a floor in them. When he got own in the 40s with Reynolds Metal, he gave that company all he had until the day he retired. In over 40 years he took a total of 5 sick days. The vast majority of those in America that are or did work in union jobs are just like they are, they bust their *** for the companies they work for, and they work harder and better than anyone else on God's green earth.

And my father was the same way. Then I joined the Union, and was shocked at the number of lazy baztards that join so that they can show up, do minimal amounts of work, and then go home.
I've seen workers climb up into a hiding space and sleep for their entire shift. And lets not forget the ever popular T&M jobs, where the unions screw the companies by taking longer and paying more.
Yes, Unions had an important part of the job in getting this country where it is. However, that does not mean that even they cannot grow into a monstrosity that begins to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals.

What morals are at ends with the accumulation of wealth?

What changes should be made?

How is my lifestyle or working my trade in order to buy what it is that I want, or spend money to do what it is that makes me happy, wrong?

What quarrels are there between men who do not deal with eachother through force, but the voluntary trade of value for value?

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

Lachean,

I see you too are a fan of Ayn Rand. :mrgreen:


Blue Collar Joe,

And my father was the same way. Then I joined the Union, and was shocked at the number of lazy baztards that join so that they can show up, do minimal amounts of work, and then go home.
I've seen workers climb up into a hiding space and sleep for their entire shift. And lets not forget the ever popular T&M jobs, where the unions screw the companies by taking longer and paying more.
Yes, Unions had an important part of the job in getting this country where it is. However, that does not mean that even they cannot grow into a monstrosity that begins to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Great post!

 

[ALiberalModerate]

And my father was the same way. Then I joined the Union, and was shocked at the number of lazy baztards that join so that they can show up, do minimal amounts of work, and then go home.
I've seen workers climb up into a hiding space and sleep for their entire shift. And lets not forget the ever popular T&M jobs, where the unions screw the companies by taking longer and paying more.
Yes, Unions had an important part of the job in getting this country where it is. However, that does not mean that even they cannot grow into a monstrosity that begins to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

I think it depends on the union. Most unions don't have much power anymore. They depend upon having a better product (workers) than non-unions. For example, the guys who do all the cabling and electrical work for the company I work for are union. They are all a hard working bunch, and we get better quality work and service out of them than out of any non-union electrical company in the city.

Now, if its something like a grocers union or something, thats probably a different animal altogether, but by and large, I think most union workers work as hard as anyone else does.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Socialism has not yet been successful, nor will it be. By the text book, it should be a perfect, utopian government system. But once the human element is put within it, it bottoms out rapidly.
I don't need to waste my time finding links to debunk socialism outside a classroom. You want to prove it works so well, you are the one defending it.
As for Wal-Mart, they are consumer based. Thus, they will fight to get prices driven down. That is part of the aspect of capitalism.

That's a half-hearted lie told to keep people away from communism. Human nature makes it not work. This is false. While I do agree that human's do have a nature, I would not go so far as to say that we are all greedy which is why socialism would fail. I think much of why we are greedy comes from this capitalist system which, from day 1, instills a basis of wanting and needing more in order to survive.

In any case, there has never been a true marxist society yet. The so called 'communist' nations were not communist at all and did not reflect Marx's works at all. For example, Marx believed in democracy. The USSR did not. Marx and his works advocated internationalism, The USSR did not. Communism is for the liberationof the worker, the USSR opressed them. There are countless differences which is why the USSR wasn't really a communism but more a state-capitalism.

Your arguement that I am defending communism so I have to get links is nonsense. You are attacking it so you have to reinforce your attack.

It's great that the consumer gets his commodities a little bit cheaper than other stores but what are the consequences? A) family business is extinguished and working class people have no choice but to turn to the machine. B) Wal-Mart treats its workers like ****. If Wal-Mart raised it's prices a half a penny per dollar, they'd be able to pay their workers almost $2000 dollars more than they do currently.

Wal-Mart can cover the cost of a dollar an hour wage increase by raising prices a half penny per dollar. For instance, a $2.00 pair of socks would then cost $2.01. This minimal increase would annually add up to $1,800 for each employee. [Analysis of Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005]

Link Here

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

I think it depends on the union. Most unions don't have much power anymore. They depend upon having a better product (workers) than non-unions. For example, the guys who do all the cabling and electrical work for the company I work for are union. They are all a hard working bunch, and we get better quality work and service out of them than out of any non-union electrical company in the city.

Now, if its something like a grocers union or something, thats probably a different animal altogether, but by and large, I think most union workers work as hard as anyone else does.

Exactly. The ethics of the worker is personal, not something any company or union can instill in them. I am a card carrying millwright and carpenter. I haven't worked out of the hall in several years. I am self employed and rehab houses for a living at this time.
Why? Because I have the control of what happens, to a much better degree. Thus, I feel more content. I have no issue with union workers. Don't take that assumption, Southern. I have issue with lazy people and organizations that don't do much any more.

That's a half-hearted lie told to keep people away from communism. Human nature makes it not work. This is false. While I do agree that human's do have a nature, I would not go so far as to say that we are all greedy which is why socialism would fail. I think much of why we are greedy comes from this capitalist system which, from day 1, instills a basis of wanting and needing more in order to survive.

No, it is basic information that is fact, not based on a text book. I have already admitted that, in a perfect world, socialism would be a perfect system. However, most people are, by nature, lazy baztards that won't do any more than absolutely necessary to get by.
I know people that are lifetime welfare cases. Because they are content to live off the government tit.
I also know people that will starve before they ever stoop to that level, as they put it. They will work like maniacs to get ahead, but they won't bother to work that hard without reward.
And I don't have to disprove anything about socialism. There is nothing to attack.