Why I changed my mind on weed

[Helix]

have you ever changed your mind......



on weed?

 

[Cephus]

1. Jobs: You will need jobs that range from growing to retail. You will employ more farmers, more distribution people, more people at retail outlets, and create new businesses in every part of those sectors. There is also the new industries of making smoking devices and other pot merchandise and selling it. Then you have an increase in any regulatory areas which would be needed to control the sale and quality of the product.

Low-wage, part-time jobs are not something we need in this country, we need high-wage, full-time, skilled careers.

2. Taxes. Your have direct tax revenue from taxing the sale of the product. Plus you have the indirect taxes which come from the newly employed people and commercial revenue that allows people to purchase other products and services across society.

In fact, the taxes and other regulatory fees are what will largely kill #1 because most people will just grow their own, thus eliminating a lot of the supposed taxes that will come from it.

3. Lower use of unsafe pain relievers. Pot can be used in much healthier ways to reduce pain from many conditions. The liver damaging effects of many modern pain relievers would be reduced through a much safer and better method of controling mild to moderate pain.

Which is fine, but that doesn't support general legalization, only medicinal use by prescription.

4. Reduction in crime. The sales of pot presently are a huge contributor to the revenue of criminal organizations. Those organizations use that revenue to do violence on the street, to corrupt the government, and to destroy people's lives. By taking their revenue we can use it for more police and better abilities to drive things like gangs out of our neighborhoods while reducing the criminal's ability to fight. There is also the reality that our present pot laws contribute to ongoing poverty by putting regular people who may not want to be a part of crime into the criminal system. once you are arrested and convicted of sale or possession you are placed in the same category as any other violent person for the purposes of getting a job. This gives the criminal organizations a large group of poor soldiers to chose from because they become the only area many of those people can get employed, and it is a profitable area to be employed in.

Come on, these are criminal organizations, legalizing pot isn't going to convince these people to go get legitimate jobs, they'll just turn their attention to other criminal enterprises.

5. Improved health care. Pot does actually have medicinal qualities and is not just a pain reducer as many pain reducers are. It actually helps with certain illnesses and has been found to reduce cancer risks. It is an all natural sleep aid and nausea reducer. It helps promote apatite for people who need that because of other medical procedures. It doesn't conflict with many other drugs. It is cheap also.

Again, prescriptive use, not general.

6. Happy people. Pot is not alcohol. It makes most people who take it happy instead of being a mood amplifier. People smoke it because it is fun to do. Being high is an interesting and fun experience on pot. The worst that seems to come from it would be adam sandler's movie career. I hate him as much as the next guy, but if something excuses the massive sales of his crap I do not care. Saturday night live might become good again.

Personally, I think anyone who has to inject, ingest, snort or smoke any illicit substance to feel good about themselves has some serious problems to begin with. The last thing we need to do is give people an artificial way to forget about their problems, instead we need to teach people to deal with their problems and solve them in the first place.

Now how about some legitimate good things that support widespread legalization? There's all kinds of pain killers out there, we don't legalize morphine or Vicodin over the counter.

Try again.

 

[Zyphlin]

Jeeez...

So we're not dumb enough ? Legalize a harmful substance based on what ? Alcohols worse ?

Based on the fact that the government has no business telling me I shouldn't be able to use it. Please provide me with a legitimate constitutional provision of the federal government that reasonably suggests it should make the use of marijuana illegal and explain why.

We have NUMEROUS dangerous substances on the market. You say "We're conservatives, we care about just enforcing the law". Really? So you're saying that Consevatives didn't pitch a fit when the "law" in New York became one that outlawed transfats and tried to make large soda's banned? That they just went "Welp! It's the 'law' now so that's just what it is and we have to accept it".

The dangerous to an individual is lower than numerous other substances the government has deemed to NOT be unsafe for public consumption. There's no significant evidence what so ever that its use presents a significant threat to the general public. And it has numerous documented beneficial factors as well. Please, explain to me on your rationale and on what constitutional grounds you believe the government can and should continue to ban it. I'm anxious to hear it.

That's my favorite part because it acknowledges the harm that marijuana can do those who use it. That acknowledgment is so rare among those who advocate legalization and the fat that such proponents are so reluctant to admit that pot can hurt people is one of the THE BIGGEST TURNOFFS of the pro-legalization movement. It's very hard for me to get behind a movement full of supporters who either incredibly ignorant or incredibly deceptive. Who spread myths like "nobody gets addicted" or "it's entirely harmless except for a bad trip once in a while." So seeing a pro-legalization article that acknowledges the harm that pot can do to people makes me feel better about the movement and edges me closer to supporting its position.

YES! This! A thousand times this. I was going to say the same general thing but you put it wonderfully and probably more concise then I would've.

I've never smoked pot, likely never will if it remains illegal, and don't really have a strong desire to either way as I find the general smell of it to be off putting. All that said, I'm in favor of legalizatoin. But some people on the "pro-legalization" side annoy me and frustrate me as much as the "anti-legalization" side because of the ridiculously over the top, unrealistic, stereotypical, idiotic things they say. We used to have one poster on here that actively proudly proclaimed how he used to drive high regularly and that people should smoke and drive because it'd make them more conscious. These type of people HURT their cause, not help it.

Be honest and forthright about the substance, both the negatives and the positives, and one can still put forth a compelling and reasonable affirmative argument as to why it should be legalized.

 

[tererun]

Low-wage, part-time jobs are not something we need in this country, we need high-wage, full-time, skilled careers.

Not every job is a clerk, and had you read what i said you would have noticed many of those positions include things like support, management, and have higher paying positions associated with them. Now you are nitpicking and spouting rhetoric and are completely ignoring a legitimate reason you wanted.

In fact, the taxes and other regulatory fees are what will largely kill #1 because most people will just grow their own, thus eliminating a lot of the supposed taxes that will come from it.

People can brew their own alcohol. People can grow their own vegetables. people can even by cheap cigarettes much lower than the regular store brands. Yet still, those things sell in many places, and are far more popular than home made varieties or dirt cheap alternatives. Another bad reason by you that reality contradicts. Not everyone has time or desire to be a gardener.

Which is fine, but that doesn't support general legalization, only medicinal use by prescription.

Since the medications I am talking about are non prescription OTCs then it would. Weed is far more effective than any OTC medication you will find for reducing pain. If you take a whole bunch of it you do not trash out your liver.

Come on, these are criminal organizations, legalizing pot isn't going to convince these people to go get legitimate jobs, they'll just turn their attention to other criminal enterprises.

You are taking either their biggest or second biggest moneymaker away. Prostituion may make more money. Yes, that will damage their ability to make money in crime, and like I said not everyone wants to get into crime. However, poverty drives lots of people who would normally stay away into the life.

Again, prescriptive use, not general.

There are plenty of people popping multiple forms of OTC sleeping aids, appetite meds, and cancer reducing vitamins. Please your excuses are getting poorer and poorer.

Personally, I think anyone who has to inject, ingest, snort or smoke any illicit substance to feel good about themselves has some serious problems to begin with. The last thing we need to do is give people an artificial way to forget about their problems, instead we need to teach people to deal with their problems and solve them in the first place.

Now how about some legitimate good things that support widespread legalization? There's all kinds of pain killers out there, we don't legalize morphine or Vicodin over the counter.

Try again.

Now we get into the real reason, your feelings. That is great, but you should not be making choices for other people. You want to spout your opinions on how horrible those people are, you are entitled not to like them. if you want to run their life for them, try a fascist nation. It is clear despite your request you have no desire to actually discuss anything or even see any truth.

 

[Sherman123]

Word of caution to all dope heads out there. Be careful what you wish for. If it becomes legal across the board, by the time government taxes it to death, special interest groups have their say, lawyers find ways to file lawsuits over it; lots of people will be wishing it was illegal again. And jail time is never going away for that product, the charges will just be a little different. Just like booze.

Considering it's already been legalized in two states for recreational use why do you think it is so unlikely that trends could shift even more towards legalization over the next 10 years?

 

[Cephus]

Not every job is a clerk, and had you read what i said you would have noticed many of those positions include things like support, management, and have higher paying positions associated with them. Now you are nitpicking and spouting rhetoric and are completely ignoring a legitimate reason you wanted.

You're still talking about retail-level, non-technical jobs, not the high-tech, full-time, well-paying jobs that we really need in this country. We have plenty of Walmarts. Try again.

People can brew their own alcohol. People can grow their own vegetables. people can even by cheap cigarettes much lower than the regular store brands. Yet still, those things sell in many places, and are far more popular than home made varieties or dirt cheap alternatives. Another bad reason by you that reality contradicts. Not everyone has time or desire to be a gardener.

But you have to realize that almost immediately, cities and states are going to pass sin taxes on legal pot, just like they do on cigarettes. When illegal drugs can undercut the costs of legal drugs, how many people are going to go with overpriced legal drugs when there's already an illegal source and distribution network in place?

Since the medications I am talking about are non prescription OTCs then it would. Weed is far more effective than any OTC medication you will find for reducing pain. If you take a whole bunch of it you do not trash out your liver.

Which doesn't change anything I said. If you want to make it prescription only for cancer patients and the like, no problem. If you want to make it available to any Tom, Dick or Harry on the street, forget it.

You are taking either their biggest or second biggest moneymaker away. Prostituion may make more money. Yes, that will damage their ability to make money in crime, and like I said not everyone wants to get into crime. However, poverty drives lots of people who would normally stay away into the life.

I don't buy that for a second, they'd just turn their attention to other, more dangerous, means of making money, it won't reduce overall crime, it will just shift it from one crime to another.

There are plenty of people popping multiple forms of OTC sleeping aids, appetite meds, and cancer reducing vitamins. Please your excuses are getting poorer and poorer.

The argument that there are a lot of stupid people out there is not a legitimate claim for making it easier for them to be stupid.

Now we get into the real reason, your feelings. That is great, but you should not be making choices for other people. You want to spout your opinions on how horrible those people are, you are entitled not to like them. if you want to run their life for them, try a fascist nation. It is clear despite your request you have no desire to actually discuss anything or even see any truth.

Society in general makes decisions for everyone all the time, that's how societies work. We decide how fast people can drive, who can get a license, who goes to jail, etc. Welcome to reality. Society will always have a say over what people within that society are allowed to do and not allowed to do.

 

[DoubleSlit]

Allow access to it, but I'm a staunch NO for recreational use and lets be honest here.

Based upon what logic do you form your opinion? Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can and cannot put into their own bodies??

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Based upon what logic do you form your opinion? Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can and cannot put into their own bodies??

Are you also against needing a prescription for some medications?

 

[DoubleSlit]

Personally, I think anyone who has to inject, ingest, snort or smoke any illicit substance to feel good about themselves has some serious problems to begin with. The last thing we need to do is give people an artificial way to forget about their problems, instead we need to teach people to deal with their problems and solve them in the first place.

So you're in favor of criminalizing anti-depressants, Xanax, Valium, and all other similar drugs? What do you think this is, N. Korea?

Now how about some legitimate good things that support widespread legalization? There's all kinds of pain killers out there, we don't legalize morphine or Vicodin over the counter.

Don't you think we should? Why should a free person require permission to obtain a medication?

 

[DoubleSlit]

Are you also against needing a prescription for some medications?

Of course. It's called "Freedom". I know that's a scary prospect for most people, but trust me, it's better than what we have now.

 

[Cephus]

So you're in favor of criminalizing anti-depressants, Xanax, Valium, and all other similar drugs? What do you think this is, N. Korea?

Where did I say that? I said they should be available only by prescription. Do you just make things up?

Don't you think we should? Why should a free person require permission to obtain a medication?

Because most people are too stupid or uneducated to know what is safe or proper to take.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Of course. It's called "Freedom". I know that's a scary prospect for most people, but trust me, it's better than what we have now.

So you would be for abolishing the FDA entirely? I'm just trying to understand how far you'd go with this...

 

[DoubleSlit]

Where did I say that? I said they should be available only by prescription. Do you just make things up?

When you said anyone who needs substances to cope has problems. Granted, you specified "illicit", but what is illicit and what isn't is completely arbitrary.

Because most people are too stupid or uneducated to know what is safe or proper to take.

So we legislate everyone down to the dumbest amongst us?

 

[DoubleSlit]

So you would be for abolishing the FDA entirely? I'm just trying to understand how far you'd go with this...

Entirely? Probably not. They have a role, ensuring QC, making sure drugs have a reasonable chance of doing what they claim to do, even if they only claim to get a user high. But they're way of doing business is insane. It costs at least $1 Billion to get a new drug approved, and once approved, they can't change a THING about the manufacturing process. If the pill sorter computer was a 1992 Dell 80386 with 512MB of memory and it dies, they have to replace it with the exact same computer. Not an "equivalent". The EXACT SAME THING.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Entirely? Probably not. They have a role, ensuring QC, making sure drugs have a reasonable chance of doing what they claim to do, even if they only claim to get a user high. But they're way of doing business is insane. It costs at least $1 Billion to get a new drug approved, and once approved, they can't change a THING about the manufacturing process. If the pill sorter computer was a 1992 Dell 80386 with 512MB of memory and it dies, they have to replace it with the exact same computer. Not an "equivalent". The EXACT SAME THING.

This would appear to contradict your position of being able to consume any product you might choose, or should the FDA control the manufacture of currently illegal substances as well?

 

[DoubleSlit]

This would appear to contradict your position of being able to consume any product you might choose, or should the FDA control the manufacture of currently illegal substances as well?

I believe a free human ought be able to ingest anything they choose, be that water, raw milk, seafood from the Gulf of Mexico, marijuana, cocaine, or whatever you can name. Further, I think they should be able to make their own, if they like, and have the skills and tools. But for companies who are in the business of manufacturing drugs, there ought to be controls over, at the very minimum, quality control, and effectiveness. The primary reason for overdoses on illegal drugs is not because a user stupidly took too much, it's because they got a batch that was stronger than normal and they took their "normal" amount. With legitimate business, while such a thing is not impossible (no human venture is perfect, or can be), it's MUCH less likely to occur, and when/if it does, the rest of the batch can be recalled.

 

[tererun]

You're still talking about retail-level, non-technical jobs, not the high-tech, full-time, well-paying jobs that we really need in this country. We have plenty of Walmarts. Try again.

Do you think products just appear on shelves? Do you think workers don't have supervisors? Do you think business owners do not exist? Do you think those computerized inventory tracking systems and credit card systems just magically work? There are truck drivers to deliver things. the mechanics needed to keep the trucks, farming equipment, packaging equipment, and all sorts of things running. There are package designers, advertisers, and people who will have to make pipes and other smoking things like vaporizers. That doesn't include all the indirect increases that come when those people spend their paychecks and demand for everything increases. Your fundamental understanding of economics shows you have no clue how an economy works, and you seem to just be spouting rhetoric which isn't even meant for this argument. This is the complain about obama's jobs program, not creating an entire new industry. No, it will not be just sold in walmart. Is alcohol just sold in walmart? is tobacco just sold in walmart? No, they are sold in many retail locations and even have enough demand to fund a number of specific outlets for them.

Do show us how all of the distribution, packaging, growing, and sales are going to happen just because of a couple of walmart employees. You made the claim that it works that way now get to proving it.

But you have to realize that almost immediately, cities and states are going to pass sin taxes on legal pot, just like they do on cigarettes. When illegal drugs can undercut the costs of legal drugs, how many people are going to go with overpriced legal drugs when there's already an illegal source and distribution network in place?

Tons. Illegal alcohol and tobacco would be tons cheaper than retail in many places. Yet there are people every day purchasing both products from legitimate outlets. Explain to all of us why a person who is living on the legal side of the law wants to start roaming into criminal land to buy something they can just as easily get from any legit store. I have bought weed and other drugs, and i have never asked the dealer if he had any tobacco or alcohol to sell me. There is some sales I am sure, but the markets for those products are dead compared to legitimate sales, even with insane taxes. There is no reason for most dealers to even touch tobacco or alcohol. The risks do not equal the costs, and undercutting the retail outlets is pretty hard when people would pay more not to deal with crime. You have this sick notion that most users are criminals. the reality is most pot smokers are the people you work with and they are not really thrilled about having to deal with the problems of crime and punishment. Their lives get ruined by a criminal record much more than pot would ever do. They risk robbery by going to shady locations with no protections. They risk injury from poor or tainted products because dealers don't care. people want a nice clean legal product so they can go get stoned and not be criminals.

Which doesn't change anything I said. If you want to make it prescription only for cancer patients and the like, no problem. If you want to make it available to any Tom, Dick or Harry on the street, forget it.

But it is safer and healthier than tylenol, advil, asprin, antihystemines, cough medicines, and almost anything you find on the OTC shelves. There is no OD potential. There is no damage to one's liver. It actually works better and is cheaper. You think it only has a purpose to get high. You can get high off of a lot of things in that OTC aisle. You can get a lot higher than you can on pot. Pot is tame compared to some of those things and the places you can go.

I don't buy that for a second, they'd just turn their attention to other, more dangerous, means of making money, it won't reduce overall crime, it will just shift it from one crime to another.

What you don't believe and do not know are clearly many things. That is of no consequence to the reality if you take their biggest moneymaker and a drug that most people stop at, you kill a huge part of their income. You make crime through illegal drugs. We saw what a high demand drug like alcohol becomes in the hands of criminals when you outlaw it. It made criminal empires. Those empires dissapeared when alcohol became legal again. Look at vegas. It is a legit town now. That is because people would rather go to a legitimate place to do these things than deal with criminals. That is why you have corporations in control now and not the mob.

The argument that there are a lot of stupid people out there is not a legitimate claim for making it easier for them to be stupid.

That is not even an argument. that is just you pretending all pot users are useless and stupid and that simply is not so.

Society in general makes decisions for everyone all the time, that's how societies work. We decide how fast people can drive, who can get a license, who goes to jail, etc. Welcome to reality. Society will always have a say over what people within that society are allowed to do and not allowed to do.

You do not even know how badly you destroy your environment and your rights. Your war on drugs have made criminals strong and brought violence to your neighborhoods by funding criminals. You have created a never ending cycle of poverty which reduces commerce and destroys lives for your pathetic moral judgments. You have hurt people who could use a cheap and safe means for medical help. you have made people's lives more miserable by taking away recreation. Someone else smoking a joint never even effected you.

Just a little FYI, speed limits were a result of trying to lower gas consumption, not for safety. keep on trying with your excuses. The reality is you just hate pot. You also hate freedom of others. You are no different than russians.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I believe a free human ought be able to ingest anything they choose, be that water, raw milk, seafood from the Gulf of Mexico, marijuana, cocaine, or whatever you can name. Further, I think they should be able to make their own, if they like, and have the skills and tools. But for companies who are in the business of manufacturing drugs, there ought to be controls over, at the very minimum, quality control, and effectiveness. The primary reason for overdoses on illegal drugs is not because a user stupidly took too much, it's because they got a batch that was stronger than normal and they took their "normal" amount. With legitimate business, while such a thing is not impossible (no human venture is perfect, or can be), it's MUCH less likely to occur, and when/if it does, the rest of the batch can be recalled.

You didn't answer the question...

 

[Dragonfly]

The bottom line here is simple.

For generation after generation it's been pummeled into everybodies heads that drugs are wrong and that drugs can kill you.
On top of that, it's been the war cry for teachers, parents, law enforcement, counselors, and doctors that marijuana is a very harmful and dangerous drug.

Obviously, that's all been little more than propaganda, brainwashing, and lies to frighten people.

It's pure hypocrisy in this day and age to keep marijuana defined as it's been defined for the last 50+ years.

 

[Fenton]

Based upon what logic do you form your opinion? Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can and cannot put into their own bodies??

We have laws for a reason, and what the hell makes you think that it's ok to dump massive amounts of harmful chemicals into a society that I and my Family have to live in ? Why ? Because your'e too weak to live without a chemical crutch ?

I have the right to raise my family in a society that's not f***ing under the influence 24/7, and I have a right to expect that my kids will grow up in a society that's not awash with dangerous drugs.

You wan't to knock down your IQ 20 points, and limit your choices for a better life, for success ? Have at it, but it's going to be illegal under Federal law and MOST State laws AS IT SHOULD BE.

Stoners, with some exception, some of the stupidest people on the planet.

 

[Dragonfly]

We have laws for a reason, and what the hell makes you think that it's ok to dump massive amounts of harmful chemicals into a society that I and my Family have to live in ? Why ? Because your'e too weak to live without a chemical crutch ?

I have the right to raise my family in a society that's not f***ing under the influence 24/7, and I have a right to expect that my kids will grow up in a society that's not awash with dangerous drugs.

You wan't to knock down your IQ 20 points, and limit your choices for a better life, for success ? Have at it, but it's going to be illegal under Federal law and MOST State laws AS IT SHOULD BE.

Stoners, with some exception, some of the stupidest people on the planet.

Hook. Line. Sinker.

 

[Cephus]

When you said anyone who needs substances to cope has problems. Granted, you specified "illicit", but what is illicit and what isn't is completely arbitrary.

I said people who needed substances to feel good about themselves, that's different from people who have a legitimate and medically verified condition.

So we legislate everyone down to the dumbest amongst us?

Until we can bring the dumbest up to a reasonable level, sure. That's how things always work, every law on the books deals with the lowest common denominator.

 

[Caine]

I would read it but Im too stoned and will read it later.

Whoaaaah Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude

 

[Fenton]

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Stoned, high and stupid.

You HAVE to be kidding right ? How old are you ? Lemme guess, you're early to mid twenties and assume everyone else is as susceptible to conspiracy misinformation bullsh** as you are.

Try again.

 

[Dragonfly]

Stoned, high and stupid.

You HAVE to be kidding right ? How old are you ? Lemme guess, you're early to mid twenties and assume everyone else is as susceptible to conspiracy misinformation bullsh** as you are.

Try again.

Ha. So funny. :lamo

I'm 50 years old.

And obviously, you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about and even less clue what you're so freaking scared of.


How about YOU try again. :2wave: