Why health care in Ameirca is so expensive

[AndrewC]

There are two primary reasons why health care is so expensive in America. The first reason is personal health choices. By that I mean the food we eat. How little or how much we exercise. We have an obesity problem in this country and it isn't because of our health care system. The second reason is inflation or the devaluing of our dollar.

Individual's personal choices affect their health. We Americans eat junk food that third world countries would not eat. We don't get enough exercise. These are facts. I see many on the left giving statistics about mortality rates and obesity. They blame our health care system. However if you take a look around you or perhaps look at yourself. You will see that it isn't our health care system, but our personal choices. Liberal health care reform is based on everyone being required to pay. Why not tell the truth? It isn't Americans unwillingness to pay for health care. It is our unwillingness to live healthy lifestyles.

The destruction of our dollar contributes greatly to rising prices of many goods and services. Health care is not immune to this. Part of the reason health care costs continue to increase is that the dollar's purchasing power decreases. It is interesting that Obama does not address this issue at all. He can make all the changes he wants. However if he does nothing about inflation. The cost of health care will continue to rise. If rising health care costs are the main focus of reform. Then you should at least examine inflation's role in rising health care costs.

Liberal health care reform is based on two related principles: elimination of profit from health care and price controls. The elimination of profit is one of the key goals of liberal health care reform. It is based on the idea that profits are the primary reason that health care is not affordable. What liberals fail to realize. Is that profits from health care don't just vanish into a dark pit of greed. They find their way back into the economy. Profits from health insurance and health care fund retirement accounts for public and private employees. Yes they fund trips to ski resorts and lavish apartments in New York. All activity which provides jobs or security for someone. If you remove profits from health care. It will have a negative affect on parts of our economy. So ask yourself. If you eliminate profit from health care to fund more health care. Are there savings for all Americans or will some Americans lose?

Liberals love price controls. They want to control prices in health care. It is a tool they use to eliminate profit from the health care system. If you look at the history of price controls in America. You will see that it does not have a very good track record. As with most government interventions. Price controls have unintended consequences. Liberals think that by controlling prices that they will be able to control profit. However they don't even try to fathom the other consequences of their actions. Elimination of profit through price controls will drive private investment out of health care. To make up for this government will have to spend more on health care. Some doctors and hospitals may leave the industry all together. Without profit incentive. How vibrant will our health care system be? I don't know the answer and neither do liberals. However history shows that price controls and the elimination of profit rarely achieve their original goals. History also shows that price controls usually have very nasty unintended consequences.

So as an alternative to price controls, elimination of profit and forcing Americans to pay what the government thinks they should pay for health care. I suggest that an easier path exists. Tell Americans the truth. You can't eat junk food, not exercise and generally neglect your personal health and expect to have inexpensive health care. The best way to save money on health care, both individually and as a nation, is to live healthier. Eat less, eat healthier and get plenty of exercise. Instead of forcing everyone to pay more for more care. How about simply asking that everyone make better personal choices. It really is the easiest way to lower health care costs. Tell Americans the truth. That as long as the Federal Reserve is manipulating our currency. You will be paying higher prices for a lot of things, including health care. Let us have real debate about inflation, the Federal Reserve and government debt. Let us discuss eliminating waste from government before we start eliminating profit from private enterprise. Let us talk about our own personal choices before we start controlling prices. What say you?

 

[Joe1991]

36 other countries do HC better and cheaper, so your arguments are moot.

 

[AndrewC]

36 other countries do HC better and cheaper, so your arguments are moot.

Do those 36 other countries use bacon as a condiment? Do those other 36 countries have the same levels of obesity and all the illnesses that come along with it? Do those other countries have an empire that is in part fueled by government debt and the printing of currency out of thin air? How many of those 36 countries receive aid or subsidy from the United States of America?

 

[Joe1991]

Do those 36 other countries use bacon as a condiment? Do those other 36 countries have the same levels of obesity and all the illnesses that come along with it? Do those other countries have an empire that is in part fueled by government debt and the printing of currency out of thin air? How many of those 36 countries receive aid or subsidy from the United States of America?

I know canada dips their fries in mayo; I'll get back to you on the rest.

 

[PeteEU]

Do those 36 other countries use bacon as a condiment?

Yes. German food is not exactly "healthy". Nor is Polish, or other central and Eastern European traditional foods. And then there is the British food.. would not feed it to my dogs. So yea, we are as unhealthy as American's over here. Obesity among young people in Spain, Italy and Greece, part of the so famous Med diet, is sky rocketing faster than in the US.

Do those other 36 countries have the same levels of obesity and all the illnesses that come along with it?

No, but many of those countries are close to the US. Germany springs to mind.. the fat peoples country of Europe. Still their healthcare system ranks higher than the US... and is cheaper.. by a huge margin.

Do those other countries have an empire that is in part fueled by government debt and the printing of currency out of thin air?

Of course, and those countries have been doing it longer than the US. Most European countries national debts have been above 50% long before the US got there. Now you guys are at our level and in some cases above us.

How many of those 36 countries receive aid or subsidy from the United States of America?

Almost none unless you count the military bases on the free land we give you. In fact I would say we are providing you guys aid by buying your treasuries..

 

[PeteEU]

I know canada dips their fries in mayo; I'll get back to you on the rest.

Only way to eat them.. very common over here.

 

[AndrewC]

I know canada dips their fries in mayo; I'll get back to you on the rest.

The real question for you is do you realize how American's personal choices have contributed to our health care costs? The "country x does it better" argument only works if all things are equal. All things are not equal. American waist sizes are certainly not equal. It is fact that much of the death and disease in America is preventable. Not by bullet proof government run health care, but by American's living a healthy lifestyle. Why avoid this reality?

Public spending and personal consumption are not equal either. American's have been on a binge. We eat and we spend more than just about any other nation. This is part of the problem. Until American's change their behavior. Until our currency is no longer devalued at the whim of politicians and wall street. You can only do so much.

 

[AndrewC]

How has that Euro been treating you, PeteEU? Has Europe not benefited from this?

 

[Charles Martel]

Only way to eat them.. very common over here.

Typical EU, give them mayo on the side for their burger, they use it for the fries.:roll:

 

[AndrewC]

PeteEU - You Lie!

Ok, that was a joke. Anyway you are incorrect. Europe, even as a whole, does not spend as much as the United States on foreign policy. When you take into consideration personal consumption and foreign policy spending. All things are certainly not equal.

World Military Spending ? Global Issues

 

[MyOwnDrum]

Reasons:
1)Fear of lawsuits. Scenario: Drug seeking frequent flier Jim Pissant comes to the ER complaining of abdominal pain of 10/10. He knows the the system, he knows the pain scale, he knows how to act. He does not have a job and does not have insurance. Doctor is forced to order an expensive abdominal CT on the off chance that the symptoms are real this time, for fear of a lawsuit. Jim Pissant has nothing to lose, therefore the system is at his mercy, and he wants some morphine or dilaudid on the double.

2) Increasing government regulation and demands: The government, each year, keeps trying to raise the standard of care, safety regulations, building codes, increasing educational demands, etc and so forth. What, at one time was a simple office procedure, has now been regulated into a more complex setting. Just setting up a clinic has a complex host of requirements. Physical therapist education used to be a bachelors degree, now it's a masters, and there's a push to make it a doctorate. Acedemia fills this with non-essential fluff ensuring the continued job security for them.

2)End of life care. Scenario:85 year old Mary Silverhair has severe aortic stenosis, diabetes type 2, and renal failure. She recently was started on dialysis. She lives at home with her 87 year old husband whose memory is failing. She has a loving family who are strong advocates for her. She is a full code and is in a telemetry unit (private rooms of course) being evaluated for her heart problem. Her echocardiogram shows an ejection fraction of 20% (bad). Her family has decided to go ahead with aortic valve replacement surgery inspite of her multiple problems. She ends up spending 2 weeks post op in the ICU on a ventilator, codes several times, then finally dies.

 

[Objective Voice]

Andrew,

While I understand the basis of your argument and agree with it - that being that Americans need to lead healthier lives - I disagree with you on three points:

1. Prevention and Wellness. These have been part of the President's health care initiatives. He's spoken out on the need for both becoming intrigal parts of health care reform from day 1, but since neither are controversial issues, they don't get talked about much in the media. Since I work in public health, I can assure you that public health care systems nationwide are starting to focus more and more on prevention and wellness. In fact, if you look closely at most health care clinics you'll likely to find more private practises are starting to focus more of these same core health care issues.

2. Price Limits. I disagree that price limits shouldn't be contained. Even you make mention of the "luxuries" that spawn out of the profits made by health insurance companies that go into paying for such swank facilities like Club Med (although you didn't use their name, I think it's safe to say you eluded to such). Wouldn't these same profits be better utilitized in doing more research on disease prevention, developing better medicines, or building better health care facilities instead of investing in retirement accounts, sky resorts or lavish apartment buildings in NYC? Seems to me a person with congestive heart failure, high blood pressure or who is obese wouldn't benefit at all from going to a ski resort. I don't mean to sound condesending here. I'm just saying put those insurance profits to better, more worthwhile use instead of lining the pockets of the fat cats on Wall Street or Rockafella Plaza. And please, don't get me wrong here. I'm all for making money! Just if you tell me you're a health care industry and your main focus is improving the overall health and quality of care of people, don't raise my insurance rates, tell me there's still work to do in disease intervention and then go out and build a multi-million dollar resort no one but the rich and famous can get access to. It's absord!

3. Price Controls. I can see several huge benefit in keeping the cost of health care down. First and foremost, employers would use less of their profits to pay the cost of employer-sponsored health care. Of course, the argument for some is to take employer-sponsored health care away and let the people buy their own health care. Well, that won't happen until the stateline restriction is removed and true competition is allowed to take form. Another benefit to price controls would be more people would have more disposable income to pump into the economy. Let's not forget that higher insurance rates aren't just hurting employers; their employees feel the pinch, as well. As to your argument that price controls hurt the economy, you'd have to show me proof of that. I know of no U.S. industry that has had price controls thrust upon them or any that has failed to make a profit because captialism wasn't allowed to go unchecked. On the contrary. Companies have gotten greedy and have fell due to their own quest for more profits and asset aquisition, and most of that has come at the hands of the consumer.

I agree. Americans do need to do more to look after their own health. But the health care system overall could do a much better job of helping people maintain healthier lifestyles.

 

[PeteEU]

Typical EU, give them mayo on the side for their burger, they use it for the fries.:roll:

PFT!!! we put mayo in the burger and have mayo on the side for the fries!!!!

 

[PeteEU]

PeteEU - You Lie!

Ok, that was a joke. Anyway you are incorrect. Europe, even as a whole, does not spend as much as the United States on foreign policy. When you take into consideration personal consumption and foreign policy spending. All things are certainly not equal.

World Military Spending ? Global Issues

On foreign policy? What does that have to do with military spending? and what the hell does it have to do with health care?

I am not incorrect. Yes the US spends more than anyone on the military. However Europeans spend more on foreign aid and other "foreign policy" programs than the US. We also use our limited military spending on peacekeeping in various hotspots around the world, something the US does not. We can keep doing this for a long time if you want.

But it does not change the fact that the US health care system is expensive because of the industry itself. I know the right loves to blame "government intervention" in the healthcare system as some sort of reason for it being so expensive. However this "theory" goes against the facts. Everything from your prescription drug laws to your lack of universal healthcare is geared for maximum profit for the healthcare industry and not the health of the people.

When you have laws in some states dictate that it is okay to refuse healthcare insurance (pre-existing condition) when a woman has an abusive husband, then you know there is a serious problem in the balance between industry and the people. When some places having had a broken wrist is enough to be denied healthcare insurance then you know there is a serious problem with the laws, laws dictated by industry and their backers and not by the people. Look at the first law Bush signed into law... it forbade the US government organisations like Medicare and what not, in negotiating prices with the drug companies.. in other words, the government had to accept whatever price the drug companies dictated.. how twisted is that?

There are many problems in the US healthcare system, but it all leads back to insurance companies and healthcare companies. They are living in the wild wild west where they set the laws and rules at the expensive of the patients.

 

[AndrewC]

On foreign policy? What does that have to do with military spending? and what the hell does it have to do with health care?

I am not incorrect. Yes the US spends more than anyone on the military. However Europeans spend more on foreign aid and other "foreign policy" programs than the US. We also use our limited military spending on peacekeeping in various hotspots around the world, something the US does not. We can keep doing this for a long time if you want.

A source for this? Hell just a few months ago Obama gave taxpayer money to Italy earthquake victims. Are you even familiar with the United States? Military action is the cornerstone of our foreign policy.

Country X has lovely government health care. Guess what. Country X doesn't have the obesity and excess problems that America does. Country X doesn't occupy Europe, Asia and the Middle East. Country X doesn't have near the consumer spending that the United States does. All these things affect our health, our purchasing power and where our taxes go. Put simply Americans pay less taxes than Europe, yet still manage to end up in massive debt. Health care spending in the United states is huge, but so is our foreign policy spending and other entitlement expenditures. The reality is that you can't squeeze any more out of the American taxpayer. People can't afford health care on their own. What makes you think they can afford government health care? You can't get something for nothing. Europe pays for their government health care. Americans pay for their government health care.

 

[Joe1991]

The real question for you is do you realize how American's personal choices have contributed to our health care costs? American waist sizes are certainly not equal. ...American's have been on a binge. We eat and we spend more than just about any other nation.

Sorry going now to Olive Garden for lunch, be back later to argue. :mrgreen:

 

[AndrewC]

Andrew,

While I understand the basis of your argument and agree with it - that being that Americans need to lead healthier lives - I disagree with you on three points:

1. Prevention and Wellness. These have been part of the President's health care initiatives. He's spoken out on the need for both becoming intrigal parts of health care reform from day 1, but since neither are controversial issues, they don't get talked about much in the media. Since I work in public health, I can assure you that public health care systems nationwide are starting to focus more and more on prevention and wellness. In fact, if you look closely at most health care clinics you'll likely to find more private practises are starting to focus more of these same core health care issues.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Seeing a doctor a few times a year won't convince many to change their unhealthy ways. Also, what about all the costs associated with people who will go to the doctor for every cough, sneeze or cold? People who otherwise might have stayed home because of the upfront cost. Will now go because they feel they can afford to go. It works both ways. There will be increase in the amount of care provided. Which will add to the cost. That is why this bill is not budget neutral. Why it will never be budget neutral.

Stop dancing around the issues. Tell people the truth. Their personal choices greatly affect their health care costs and that of our entire nation. Each individual can make better personal choices. Save themselves and others money in the process.

2. Price Limits. I disagree that price limits shouldn't be contained. Even you make mention of the "luxuries" that spawn out of the profits made by health insurance companies that go into paying for such swank facilities like Club Med (although you didn't use their name, I think it's safe to say you eluded to such). Wouldn't these same profits be better utilitized in doing more research on disease prevention, developing better medicines, or building better health care facilities instead of investing in retirement accounts, sky resorts or lavish apartment buildings in NYC? Seems to me a person with congestive heart failure, high blood pressure or who is obese wouldn't benefit at all from going to a ski resort. I don't mean to sound condesending here. I'm just saying put those insurance profits to better, more worthwhile use instead of lining the pockets of the fat cats on Wall Street or Rockafella Plaza. And please, don't get me wrong here. I'm all for making money! Just if you tell me you're a health care industry and your main focus is improving the overall health and quality of care of people, don't raise my insurance rates, tell me there's still work to do in disease intervention and then go out and build a multi-million dollar resort no one but the rich and famous can get access to. It's absord!

3. Price Controls. I can see several huge benefit in keeping the cost of health care down. First and foremost, employers would use less of their profits to pay the cost of employer-sponsored health care. Of course, the argument for some is to take employer-sponsored health care away and let the people buy their own health care. Well, that won't happen until the stateline restriction is removed and true competition is allowed to take form. Another benefit to price controls would be more people would have more disposable income to pump into the economy. Let's not forget that higher insurance rates aren't just hurting employers; their employees feel the pinch, as well. As to your argument that price controls hurt the economy, you'd have to show me proof of that. I know of no U.S. industry that has had price controls thrust upon them or any that has failed to make a profit because captialism wasn't allowed to go unchecked. On the contrary. Companies have gotten greedy and have fell due to their own quest for more profits and asset aquisition, and most of that has come at the hands of the consumer.

I agree. Americans do need to do more to look after their own health. But the health care system overall could do a much better job of helping people maintain healthier lifestyles.

Your arguments on profit and prices are based on your assumptions. You assume that government knows better than individuals how to spend their money. You assume that government knows what prices should be and can manage costs and price. You assume that ideal behavior and ideal outcomes will result from government action.

Health care is made up of goods and services. No one person or entity sets or knows what prices for these goods and services should be. The government does not know what the price should be. They do not know where all the profit from health care goes. Some of it funds jobs. Some of it funds retirements. Some of it may even fund research. Certainly some of it funds government. So don't assume that you or government knows best how to spend this money.

Why do economies exist? Economies exist to fulfill the needs and wants of its participants. Now that isn't to say that economies guarantee that the needs and wants of its participants will be met. It is a natural human activity that has evolved to meet the needs of the majority of the participants.

There is a price which most are willing and able to pay for health care. The fact that Americans have an obesity problem and other excess related problems proves health care is priced accordingly. With all the supposed health care related plight in this country. You don't see a massive change in personal behavior. Does that make sense to you? If health care is so unaffordable. If so many Americans are risking death every day due to our health care system. Why don't more make the personal changes necessary to mitigate the problem? Why isn't healthy living and frugal living more popular than a Big Mac and American Idol? No, our system isn't perfect. Neither are the patients that flood our doctor offices and emergency rooms. Treating symptoms of American excess and corruption. Without dealing with the real problems. Is not a solution.

 

[PeteEU]

A source for this? Hell just a few months ago Obama gave taxpayer money to Italy earthquake victims.

How nice of him. Those 50k dollars really help a lot in the big picture.... However if we use that as a sign of "foreign aid" then our response to Katrina dwarfs yours to Italy.

Are you even familiar with the United States?

Of course I am

Military action is the cornerstone of our foreign policy.

Disagree. So you are saying that the only way the US gets its way is if it shoves a gun in the face of someone? That is not foreign policy, that is bullying. Considering how much you pay for your military, you get a piss poor return out of it...

Country X has lovely government health care. Guess what. Country X doesn't have the obesity and excess problems that America does. Country X doesn't occupy Europe, Asia and the Middle East. Country X doesn't have near the consumer spending that the United States does. All these things affect our health, our purchasing power and where our taxes go. Put simply Americans pay less taxes than Europe, yet still manage to end up in massive debt. Health care spending in the United states is huge, but so is our foreign policy spending and other entitlement expenditures. The reality is that you can't squeeze any more out of the American taxpayer. People can't afford health care on their own. What makes you think they can afford government health care? You can't get something for nothing. Europe pays for their government health care. Americans pay for their government health care.

Just a load of bs excuses. Healthcare is expensive not because you spend so much of GDP on the military but because your system is broken and run by the very people who gain the most from the present system.. the healthcare industry. There is zero accountability or transparency and the whole sector is motivated not on curing and healing people but by profit. Because of this, the industry has zero issue in overcharging, cutting off treatment and cherry picking who can and who can not get help. If your politicians worked for the people and not for special interest and the industry, they would long ago have put their foot down and stopped many of the very practices that are making healthcare expensive. But that would mean they would loose big financial backers .. which means that nothing will happen.

 

[B L Zeebub]

The C certainly doesnt stand for constipated

 

[AndrewC]

Just a load of bs excuses. Healthcare is expensive not because you spend so much of GDP on the military but because your system is broken and run by the very people who gain the most from the present system.. the healthcare industry. There is zero accountability or transparency and the whole sector is motivated not on curing and healing people but by profit. Because of this, the industry has zero issue in overcharging, cutting off treatment and cherry picking who can and who can not get help. If your politicians worked for the people and not for special interest and the industry, they would long ago have put their foot down and stopped many of the very practices that are making healthcare expensive. But that would mean they would loose big financial backers .. which means that nothing will happen.

Look, Mr. EU. The point I'm making is that how America's money is spent is different than the EU. We do spend more on foreign policy than the EU does. Yes I agree we get even less for it. The point is that you and every other health care reformer think you can squeeze more out of taxpayer. You cannot.

If liberals suggested that we drastically curb spending in other areas. Their plan may make more sense. However that hasn't been the case. Liberals aren't saving any money. They are spending more. We are broke. We can't pay all our public debt and many cannot pay their private debt. Something has to give. Can you not see that?

There is no reserve of wealth for America to tap. Our economy is not the same as Europe. To suggest that you can plug in a European solution without changing the other areas of our government and society to be more like Europe is ignorant. You can't compare America to France or even Canada. Yet to hear liberals. All will be better if we just adopt Euro style health care. Get a grip man.

The richest nation is world wastes a ton of money. Simply adding to the bill won't solve anything. If you want America to be more like Europe. You have to change more than health care. Thus all is not equal. So without other reform. The country x argument is invalid.

 

[Objective Voice]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Seeing a doctor a few times a year won't convince many to change their unhealthy ways. Also, what about all the costs associated with people who will go to the doctor for every cough, sneeze or cold? People who otherwise might have stayed home because of the upfront cost. Will now go because they feel they can afford to go. It works both ways. There will be increase in the amount of care provided. Which will add to the cost. That is why this bill is not budget neutral. Why it will never be budget neutral.

I would say you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing - injecting your own broad opinion on the health care issue and how "liberal" reform will negatively affect the nation's economy and the health care system overall. For the most part, you're spouting the exact same Conservative rhetoric here, i.e., health care reform is an afront to capitalism. While I agree that any change in the health insurance and medical industries will certainly affect how each operates in the near future, I don't necessarily share your gloom and doom outlook. The free enterprise system always finds a way to turn a profit.

Stop dancing around the issues. Tell people the truth. Their personal choices greatly affect their health care costs and that of our entire nation. Each individual can make better personal choices. Save themselves and others money in the process.

Again, I agree. People do need to start making better, healthier dietary/lifestyle choices. But again, the medical community both public and private have been saying this for years! And the President has stressed same since the health care reform initiative was re-ignited. I'm not sure what you expect the current Administration to do here. Do TV ads on healthier living? Send out fliers or newsletters on wellness and prevention? I can see that going over very well with the opposition, i.e., "what a waste of more taxpayer dollars". :roll:

Your arguments on profit and prices are based on your assumptions. You assume that government knows better than individuals how to spend their money. You assume that government knows what prices should be and can manage costs and price. You assume that ideal behavior and ideal outcomes will result from government action.

I'll stop here and ask you the same question: Are you an economist? If you aren't, your argument is based on the same primus as mine - your opinion. Which is fine. I'll never put anyone down for sharing their thoughts on any matter. It's what you believe. I share some of your concerns, but not all of them.

 

[Truth Detector]

36 other countries do HC better and cheaper, so your arguments are moot.

I am constantly amused by this false statement to support the failure of what is represented by Socialized medicine.

I guess if you ignore the cost of the taxation of those nations citizens, ignore the lack of economic growth as a cost of these programs, ignore the much higher cost of gas, goods and services, then yes, I guess you can claim that they cost less.

But that does not explain why doctors in those systems make less than half of what practitioners in the US make and the fact that even with all their cost cutting, nations like France, Germany, Canada and England (and many others), are struggling to find the revenue on an already over burdened system to continue paying for these programs.

But as is typical with Liberal efforts to distort and lie in order to support such farcical systems, they prefer to only look at statistics and facts that will support their nonsensical claims.

 

[PeteEU]

I am constantly amused by this false statement to support the failure of what is represented by Socialized medicine.

I guess if you ignore the cost of the taxation of those nations citizens, ignore the lack of economic growth as a cost of these programs, ignore the much higher cost of gas, goods and services, then yes, I guess you can claim that they cost less.

But that does not explain why doctors in those systems make less than half of what practitioners in the US make and the fact that even with all their cost cutting, nations like France, Germany, Canada and England (and many others), are struggling to find the revenue on an already over burdened system to continue paying for these programs.

But as is typical with Liberal efforts to distort and lie in order to support such farcical systems, they prefer to only look at statistics and facts that will support their nonsensical claims.

talk about distorting and lieing..... Right talking points lack one important thing.. FACTS!

 

[Truth Detector]

1. Prevention and Wellness. These have been part of the President's health care initiatives. He's spoken out on the need for both becoming intrigal parts of health care reform from day 1, but since neither are controversial issues, they don't get talked about much in the media. Since I work in public health, I can assure you that public health care systems nationwide are starting to focus more and more on prevention and wellness. In fact, if you look closely at most health care clinics you'll likely to find more private practises are starting to focus more of these same core health care issues.

What empirical data exists to support the farcical claim that if only Americans had full access to healthcare managed by the Government they would suddenly start going to the doctor, moderating their diets and exercising.

The FACTS do not support such farcical claims.

2. Price Limits. I disagree that price limits shouldn't be contained. Even you make mention of the "luxuries" that spawn out of the profits made by health insurance companies that go into paying for such swank facilities like Club Med (although you didn't use their name, I think it's safe to say you eluded to such). Wouldn't these same profits be better utilitized in doing more research on disease prevention, developing better medicines, or building better health care facilities instead of investing in retirement accounts, sky resorts or lavish apartment buildings in NYC?

See below on price controls.

Seems to me a person with congestive heart failure, high blood pressure or who is obese wouldn't benefit at all from going to a ski resort. I don't mean to sound condesending here. I'm just saying put those insurance profits to better, more worthwhile use instead of lining the pockets of the fat cats on Wall Street or Rockafella Plaza. And please, don't get me wrong here. I'm all for making money! Just if you tell me you're a health care industry and your main focus is improving the overall health and quality of care of people, don't raise my insurance rates, tell me there's still work to do in disease intervention and then go out and build a multi-million dollar resort no one but the rich and famous can get access to. It's absord!

Again, one would have to pretend that profits don’t go back to investors and that many investors are people like you and me; and one would have to pretend that the current system has not had major breakthroughs in medical care, technology and drug development.

But one also would have to wallow in denial to suggest that a healthcare system that is tightly controlled by Government regulation, red tape and healthcare plans would be as innovative as the current system is.

3. Price Controls. I can see several huge benefit in keeping the cost of health care down. First and foremost, employers would use less of their profits to pay the cost of employer-sponsored health care. Of course, the argument for some is to take employer-sponsored health care away and let the people buy their own health care. Well, that won't happen until the stateline restriction is removed and true competition is allowed to take form. Another benefit to price controls would be more people would have more disposable income to pump into the economy. Let's not forget that higher insurance rates aren't just hurting employers; their employees feel the pinch, as well. As to your argument that price controls hurt the economy, you'd have to show me proof of that. I know of no U.S. industry that has had price controls thrust upon them or any that has failed to make a profit because captialism wasn't allowed to go unchecked. On the contrary. Companies have gotten greedy and have fell due to their own quest for more profits and asset aquisition, and most of that has come at the hands of the consumer.

Price controls never have worked whenever they were tried and have only served to make things MORE expensive and cause shortages. I am stunned when anyone with an education calls for such misguided policies.

The Concise Guide To Economics, by Jim Cox

Why Price Controls on Prescription Drugs Would Harm Seniors
Why Price Controls on Prescription Drugs Would Harm Seniors

Even the New York Times got this one right.

In Health Care Too, Price Controls Don't Work
In Health Care Too, Price Controls Don't Work - The New York Times

Your arguments for price controls and price limits can only succeed if competition is increased and useless red tape legislation reduced.

I agree. Americans do need to do more to look after their own health. But the health care system overall could do a much better job of helping people maintain healthier lifestyles.

I have not seen one credible argument to support the contention that a Government managed system will make people maintains a healthier lifestyle.

 

[Truth Detector]

I am not incorrect. Yes the US spends more than anyone on the military.

Yes it does; do you want to fathom a guess as to why?

However Europeans spend more on foreign aid and other "foreign policy" programs than the US. We also use our limited military spending on peacekeeping in various hotspots around the world, something the US does not. We can keep doing this for a long time if you want.

No facts to support this hyperbolic contention; but hey, let’s see your credible sources that will support this laughable claim.

But it does not change the fact that the US health care system is expensive because of the industry itself. I know the right loves to blame "government intervention" in the healthcare system as some sort of reason for it being so expensive. However this "theory" goes against the facts. Everything from your prescription drug laws to your lack of universal healthcare is geared for maximum profit for the healthcare industry and not the health of the people.

I am constantly amused when Europeans make this claim in a vacuum of the expansive costs associated with their own systems. But only by ignoring REALITY can they make such farcical claims.

So let me ask you Pete; how much do you pay in social taxes and personal income tax? How much do you pay for a gallon of gas? How much do similar goods and services cost in Europe and Canada versus their cost here in the USA.

The notion that you are not paying a HUGE cost for Socialized welfare and healthcare systems or less than what Americans pay for their own requires one to ignore the true costs of living in Europe; less choice, less services and high taxation.

This is a simple example; how many places in Europe have a free refill on coffee?

When you have laws in some states dictate that it is okay to refuse healthcare insurance (pre-existing condition) when a woman has an abusive husband, then you know there is a serious problem in the balance between industry and the people. When some places having had a broken wrist is enough to be denied healthcare insurance then you know there is a serious problem with the laws, laws dictated by industry and their backers and not by the people. Look at the first law Bush signed into law... it forbade the US government organisations like Medicare and what not, in negotiating prices with the drug companies.. in other words, the government had to accept whatever price the drug companies dictated.. how twisted is that?

Once again there are no facts to support your suspect conclusions. But I have an open mind; please show me where someone with a broken wrist was denied healthcare insurance.

What law are you referring to that Bush signed where you claim it forbade US Government organizations from negotiating prices with drug companies?

There are many problems in the US healthcare system, but it all leads back to insurance companies and healthcare companies. They are living in the wild wild west where they set the laws and rules at the expensive of the patients.

No facts here; nothing more then hyperbolic blather. I challenge you to support this with any credible facts.

Once again Pete, you're long on hyperbolic rhetoric and short on facts.