Why God Wants Praise [W:65]

[FluffyNinja]

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but
the gift of God is eternal life.

Because sin will not be allowed in heaven.
God doesn't have to take away free will as Christ has washed sin away for those that believe in Him.

you also have to understand the context of death used in the bible. death in the bible means a separation of.
The soul is separated from the body.
in the story of the prodigal son there was separation between father and son. the father referred to him that was dead but is now alive.

sin will die in heaven. It will be permanently separated from God and man forever. hence the final death.

I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said here. I believe too many Christians see Christ's sacrifice on the cross in the wrong light. Yes, sins of the past are "washed away" for those who believe and repent; however, I believe many new Christians are getting the wrong message that all "future" sin will be automatically "washed away" as well. Some even go as far as to think that sin committed after salvation is without repercussion. John piper called this the "Convenient Christ Syndrome". If Paul the Apostle showed us anything it was that even the faithful have daily struggles with sin and must seek God's guidance and grace every day! We MUST beg forgiveness and seek repentance EVERY DAY. It's the battle between the flesh and the spirit, between what is worldly and heavenly.

One cannot presuppose that the "human condition" will automatically leave us, even after salvation. We must seek that which is spiritual. God, through Christ simply offers a way to be free from sin if we choose to accept it. There is a difference between being free from sin's grip on us and being rid of sin. As long as God allows humans to exist either in fleshly or soul form....I don't think we'll ever be "rid of" sin. Paul described his daily struggle with it.

I do agree that God cannot tolerate it in His presence.....but also, don't presuppose that sin could not be committed after our fleshly bodies die.....Christ after all, in Matthew tells us a story of Lucifer and how he was cast from heaven by God along with his angels who rebelled, and I believe Christ's words. Its not that sin CAN NOT be committed in heaven, it's that God, I believe will cast out those who do in His presence.

There are many "myths" about the "rules" and parameters of heaven that have circulated for hundreds of years....even among our churches. Sadly, much of it is not Biblically sound. God's Word tells us very little about the nature of heaven.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Sin is defined by various churches in various ways. That's why I've been trying to get a coherent definition of it from someone on this thread for quite a while now.

I would assume sin is either the act of something that goes against gods will or/also the inherited nature of being unworthy because of actions performed by adam and eve.

I figured as much. Only partly right. As you may well know, the original books of the Bible were written in Greek and Hebrew. From the oldest Greek manuscripts (of various books of the Bible) that have been found, we find the Greek word "hamartia" which has been translated into "sin". Interestingly enough, the word "hamartia" came from Greek Archery competition. It means literally "missing the mark" or "separation from" the mark. You see, "sin" is essentially separation from God. It simply means anything that separates us from Him and His will for our lives, whether in thought or in action.

Sin doesn't have to be an "act" or an "action" at all as you put it....although even a lot of Christians believe that is the case. Christ even describes in detail "sins of the heart"...many of us Christians don't like to address that one however because of our hypocrisy and shame I suppose. "All have sinned and come short of God's glory," WAS NOT just a message to the lost, or unrepentant, or to non-Christians. It was a message for Christians as well. many churches, with their condescending positions better wise up!

And yes, sadly various churches create their own definition of sin. Causes confusion and dissension. But its just not that complicated. Its just that we Christians are as good at rationalizing as non-Christians are. We need to get back to trying are hardest to emulate Christ's love and humility in my opinion.

 

[roughdraft274]

I figured as much. Only partly right. As you may well know, the original books of the Bible were written in Greek and Hebrew. From the oldest Greek manuscripts (of various books of the Bible) that have been found, we find the Greek word "hamartia" which has been translated into "sin". Interestingly enough, the word "hamartia" came from Greek Archery competition. It means literally "missing the mark" or "separation from" the mark. You see, "sin" is essentially separation from God. It simply means anything that separates us from Him and His will for our lives, whether in thought or in action.

Sin doesn't have to be an "act" or an "action" at all as you put it....although even a lot of Christians believe that is the case. Christ even describes in detail "sins of the heart"...many of us Christians don't like to address that one however because of our hypocrisy and shame I suppose. "All have sinned and come short of God's glory," WAS NOT just a message to the lost, or unrepentant, or to non-Christians. It was a message for Christians as well. many churches, with their condescending positions better wise up!

Well, when I say sin is the act of something that goes against gods will, that also includes sinful thoughts, because thinking sinful thoughts is an action. Do you mean something else when you say "sins of the heart"? Or am I correct in thinking it means something akin to "sinful wishes or thoughts"?

And with all of this out of the way, does that mean you can tell me what happens in heaven regarding freewill and sinning? Is it as described by another poster that god removes all sinful impulses and I am a different person in heaven, thus I would think violating my freewill, or does none of that change and I still have sinful impulses that I would be fighting while I'm in heaven but my free will remains intact?

 

[FluffyNinja]

Well, when I say sin is the act of something that goes against gods will, that also includes sinful thoughts, because thinking sinful thoughts is an action. Do you mean something else when you say "sins of the heart"? Or am I correct in thinking it means something akin to "sinful wishes or thoughts"?

And with all of this out of the way, does that mean you can tell me what happens in heaven regarding freewill and sinning? Is it as described by another poster that god removes all sinful impulses and I am a different person in heaven, thus I would think violating my freewill, or does none of that change and I still have sinful impulses that I would be fighting while I'm in heaven but my free will remains intact?

You are correct in your thinking.

You are still being intentionally obtuse here I believe because you seem to be using "free will" and "sinful impulses" interchangeably. Does having free will ALWAYS necessarily mean that one will seek to disobey God?

Keep in mind of course I cant PROVE any of this to you, nor do I wish to....its simply what I believe/know with all that I am and I'm simply sharing it. I will go out on a limb here and give you an answer that you will likely not accept and almost assuredly not comprehend unless you've truly accepted Christ and have been born again of the Holy Spirit. But here goes......when one WILLFULLY allows the Holy Spirit to live in us....we experience "conviction" for all of the sinful thoughts and actions that we have and do. The unbelievers would call it "guilt". But truly repentant Christians would feel that "guilt" if you will, over things that a non-repentant person, or a non-believer would not or could not feel it over.

To get to your question, no...God does not take away our free will, neither on Earth nor in Heaven. He's not a God who's ever forced anyone to be obedient....he promises judgment for those who aren't but never forces His children to obey. Do I believe that once we've experienced Heaven's glory that our feeble human minds will have any desire to do anything to be separated from God again?.....NO, absolutely not! Is it possible to sin in heaven?....I believe yes, but like Lucifer, I also believe you'd be cast out on your can, and definitely lose your club membership. But in the end, who really knows? These are only my beliefs. God is still a mystery. Anyone who believes they've figured Him out, even condescending Christians or self-proclaimed Christians....could be in for a big surprise one day.

 

[roughdraft274]

You are correct in your thinking.

You are still being intentionally obtuse here I believe because you seem to be using "free will" and "sinful impulses" interchangeably. Does having free will ALWAYS necessarily mean that one will seek to disobey God?

Not at all. I've never even suggested such. I think you are just reading that into my questions. What I'm asking is very simple.

We have free will. We all sin by the typical christian standard. Whether it be impure thoughts or actions. If we go through all the correct motions, which are varied depending on which christian church you ask, we will be forgiven and go to heaven to be with god. Once you are in heaven do you still have the free will you had on earth in the exact same way? If so then what is the difference between heaven and earth in regards to sin? If it's so impossible to not sin on earth, then why would it not be any different in heaven unless my free will was tinkered with? I'm not saying that simply by having free will that this means that you will choose sin or have sinful impulses. I'm asking that if I have sinful impulses and free will on earth, and then I go to heaven, what would stop me from having sinful impulses in heaven unless my free will to have such impulses were taken away?

Keep in mind of course I cant PROVE any of this to you, nor do I wish to....its simply what I believe/know with all that I am and I'm simply sharing it. I will go out on a limb here and give you an answer that you will likely not accept and almost assuredly not comprehend unless you've truly accepted Christ and have been born again of the Holy Spirit. But here goes......when one WILLFULLY allows the Holy Spirit to live in us....we experience "conviction" for all of the sinful thoughts and actions that we have and do. The unbelievers would call it "guilt". But truly repentant Christians would feel that "guilt" if you will, over things that a non-repentant person, or a non-believer would not or could not feel it over.

To get to your question, no...God does not take away our free will, neither on Earth nor in Heaven. He's not a God who's ever forced anyone to be obedient....he promises judgment for those who aren't but never forces His children to obey. Do I believe that once we've experienced Heaven's glory that our feeble human minds will have any desire to do anything to be separated from God again?.....NO, absolutely not! Is it possible to sin in heaven?....I believe yes, but like Lucifer, I also believe you'd be cast out on your can, and definitely lose your club membership. But in the end, who really knows? These are only my beliefs. God is still a mystery. Anyone who believes they've figured Him out, even condescending Christians or self-proclaimed Christians....could be in for a big surprise one day.

Valid and amazingly refreshing point. No body knows yet so many Christians gladly express to me gods exact wishes and thinking and exactly what happens. And they all tell me different things. Its almost as if, almost, that they all have different personal revelation from god. How odd.

 

[FluffyNinja]

We have free will. We all sin by the typical christian standard. Whether it be impure thoughts or actions. If we go through all the correct motions, which are varied depending on which christian church you ask, we will be forgiven and go to heaven to be with god. Once you are in heaven do you still have the free will you had on earth in the exact same way? If so then what is the difference between heaven and earth in regards to sin? If it's so impossible to not sin on earth, then why would it not be any different in heaven unless my free will was tinkered with? I'm not saying that simply by having free will that this means that you will choose sin or have sinful impulses. I'm asking that if I have sinful impulses and free will on earth, and then I go to heaven, what would stop me from having sinful impulses in heaven unless my free will to have such impulses were taken away?

Just my personal thoughts mind you, I believe that the big difference wont necessarily be in our sinful human nature (we'll never truly be worthy of God's grace either here or in Heaven) but in the LOCALE. Only through Christ's sacrifice are we deemed "worthy". I believe we wont have all of the temptations of earth and flesh while in heaven. We wont have our fleshly bodies any longer for one thing. It will make it very difficult to even want to sin I think. The world, on the other hand was given over to sin, God's Word even tells us as much....Lucifer is the prince of this world. Its ruled by sin. God's realm is in the hearts of His believers. in Romans 1:18-24 Paul sums it up quite well....God essentially gives those who willfully disobey, "over to their own wicked desires". Its a sinful broken world. Although I am sure it broke His heart, God has essentially washed His hands of it I believe. He offered up Christ as a Hope and a Way for those who choose not to succumb to it. My 2 cents. For what it's worth. :shrug:

 

[roughdraft274]

Just my personal thoughts mind you, I believe that the big difference wont necessarily be in our sinful human nature (we'll never truly be worthy of God's grace, that comes only through Christ's sacrifice) but in the LOCALE. I believe we wont have all of the temptations of earth and flesh while in heaven. We wont have our fleshly bodies any longer for one thing. It will make it very difficult to even want to sin I think. The world, on the other hand was given over to sin, God's Word even tells us as much....Lucifer is the prince of this world. Its ruled by sin. God's realm is in the hearts of His believers. in Romans 1:18-24 Paul sums it up quite well....God essentially gives those who willfully disobey, "over to their own wicked desires". Its a sinful broken world. Although I am sure it broke His heart, God has essentially washed His hands of it I believe. He offered up Christ as a Hope and a Way for those who choose not to succumb to it. My 2 cents. For what it's worth. :shrug:

So then I would spend eternity in heaven trying my best not to sin otherwise I would be cast out on my can as you put it? That's what heaven is?

I think it's rather sad if what you mean is that heaven is without sexual desire.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Not at all. I've never even suggested such. I think you are just reading that into my questions. What I'm asking is very simple.

We have free will. We all sin by the typical christian standard. Whether it be impure thoughts or actions. If we go through all the correct motions, which are varied depending on which christian church you ask, we will be forgiven and go to heaven to be with god. Once you are in heaven do you still have the free will you had on earth in the exact same way? If so then what is the difference between heaven and earth in regards to sin? If it's so impossible to not sin on earth, then why would it not be any different in heaven unless my free will was tinkered with? I'm not saying that simply by having free will that this means that you will choose sin or have sinful impulses. I'm asking that if I have sinful impulses and free will on earth, and then I go to heaven, what would stop me from having sinful impulses in heaven unless my free will to have such impulses were taken away?



Valid and amazingly refreshing point. No body knows yet so many Christians gladly express to me gods exact wishes and thinking and exactly what happens. And they all tell me different things. Its almost as if, almost, that they all have different personal revelation from god. How odd.

Again, I'm not one for hitting people over the head with the Bible. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am right or that you are wrong. I have neither the desire nor feel the need to even try and "prove" through empirical data that anything that I believe is true. Just sharing my sincere beliefs. take it for what it is. Or don't.

 

[FluffyNinja]

So then I would spend eternity in heaven trying my best not to sin otherwise I would be cast out on my can as you put it? That's what heaven is?

I think it's rather sad if what you mean is that heaven is without sexual desire.

I think we have a tendency to look at EVERYTHING from a very fleshly/worldly perspective. I don't feel the desire to sin is going to be as strong in heaven as you lead on.

Sad because SADLY, sexual desire is one of the things that consumes us in our human state. Some people cant get past their sexual nature....its all that defines some people. Would you disagree? I must add for the record, I'm certainly not "anti-sex," but one must admit, if they're being honest, our very sexual nature quite often gets us into way more trouble than it does us good....speaking as a species. :lol:

 

[roughdraft274]

I think we have a tendency to look at EVERYTHING from a very fleshly/worldly perspective. I don't feel the desire to sin is going to be as strong in heaven as you lead on.

Sad because SADLY, sexual desire is one of the things that consumes us in our human state. Some people cant get past their sexual nature....its all that defines some people. Would you disagree? I must add for the record, I'm certainly not "anti-sex," but one must admit, if they're being honest, our very sexual nature quite often gets us into way more trouble than it does us good....speaking as a species. :lol:

So you're saying an intelligent designer wouldn't have designed us with such sexual desire? If he were being smart about it?

 

[ludin]

I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said here. I believe too many Christians see Christ's sacrifice on the cross in the wrong light. Yes, sins of the past are "washed away" for those who believe and repent; however, I believe many new Christians are getting the wrong message that all "future" sin will be automatically "washed away" as well. Some even go as far as to think that sin committed after salvation is without repercussion. John piper called this the "Convenient Christ Syndrome". If Paul the Apostle showed us anything it was that even the faithful have daily struggles with sin and must seek God's guidance and grace every day! We MUST beg forgiveness and seek repentance EVERY DAY. It's the battle between the flesh and the spirit, between what is worldly and heavenly.

that doesn't dispute anything I said. Christ atonement was for all sin for the rest of time. If it wasn't for future sin then we would have no hope of salvation.
Hence John Pipers book Future Grace.

One cannot presuppose that the "human condition" will automatically leave us, even after salvation. We must seek that which is spiritual. God, through Christ simply offers a way to be free from sin if we choose to accept it. There is a difference between being free from sin's grip on us and being rid of sin. As long as God allows humans to exist either in fleshly or soul form....I don't think we'll ever be "rid of" sin. Paul described his daily struggle with it.

My comments were directed about heaven in heaven no sin will be allowed to exist.

I do agree that God cannot tolerate it in His presence.....but also, don't presuppose that sin could not be committed after our fleshly bodies die.....Christ after all, in Matthew tells us a story of Lucifer and how he was cast from heaven by God along with his angels who rebelled, and I believe Christ's words. Its not that sin CAN NOT be committed in heaven, it's that God, I believe will cast out those who do in His presence.

Sin will not exist because satan and his follows along with all of that will be cast into the lake of fire.

There are many "myths" about the "rules" and parameters of heaven that have circulated for hundreds of years....even among our churches. Sadly, much of it is not Biblically sound. God's Word tells us very little about the nature of heaven.

actually it reveals a great deal.

 

[ludin]

So you're saying an intelligent designer wouldn't have designed us with such sexual desire? If he were being smart about it?

Nope God in fact did design sex, however it was designed for the use inside of marriage.
it wasn't designed to be a favorite past time with multiple random people.

it is the corruption of sex that has lead it where it is.

 

[FluffyNinja]

So you're saying an intelligent designer wouldn't have designed us with such sexual desire? If he were being smart about it?

I didn't say that at all. You're being intentionally obtuse again. I know where you're attempting to go with this. I simply refuse to be dragged there.

 

[FluffyNinja]

that doesn't dispute anything I said. Christ atonement was for all sin for the rest of time. If it wasn't for future sin then we would have no hope of salvation.
Hence John Pipers book Future Grace.

I think you've missed my point here. My point is that many Christians seem to believe that at the point of salvation we are instantaneously freed from sin's grip....nothing could be farther from the truth....fact is, we are FREED FROM SIN'S PUNISHMENT, which Christ took for us. To believe that, because you're saved by grace the enemy cant touch you nor that sin can't have a grip on your life, is dangerous thinking....it's prideful, and it gives the enemy a foothold into one's heart. Do I need to point out that the enemy has no need of winning over the lost....he already has them. Sadly, it's the hearts of believers that he seeks to manipulate and where he does his worst damage.

My comments were directed about heaven in heaven no sin will be allowed to exist.

Perhaps you should edit to say that God cannot tolerate sin in His presence?

Sin will not exist because satan and his follows along with all of that will be cast into the lake of fire.

So Satan created sin? Sin will die with his confinement? Does God's Word say this? As I understood it, the first sin on Earth was a willful act of man. Am I wrong?

actually it reveals a great deal.

About the "rules" and "parameters" of heaven? There are specific details? Because that's what I specifically said. If so, I'd be genuinely interested to read about them. Ive found that God's Word speaks of Heaven mostly in generalities and only a select few prophets were even allowed to see glimpses of it through visions and dreams. Christ Himself, who has intimate knowledge of heaven, only speaks of it a few times and vaguely.

 

[ludin]

I think you've missed my point here. My point is that many Christians seem to believe that at the point of salvation we are instantaneously freed from sin's grip....nothing could be farther from the truth....fact is, we are FREED FROM SIN'S PUNISHMENT, which Christ took for us. To believe that, because you're saved by grace the enemy cant touch you nor that sin can't have a grip on your life, is dangerous thinking....it's prideful, and it gives the enemy a foothold into one's heart. Do I need to point out that the enemy has no need of winning over the lost....he already has them. Sadly, it's the hearts of believers that he seeks to manipulate and where he does his worst damage.

since I never said any of that your point if moot.

Perhaps you should edit to say that God cannot tolerate sin in His presence?

Splitting hairs.

So Satan created sin? Sin will die with his confinement? Does God's Word say this? As I understood it, the first sin on Earth was a willful act of man. Am I wrong?

technically yes he did. Sin could be defined as anything outside the will of God. The first sinner was in fact Lucifer.
why would sin not be removed from heaven? if it wasn't then that would defeat the entire purpose of Christ's death.

About the "rules" and "parameters" of heaven? There are specific details? Because that's what I specifically said. If so, I'd be genuinely interested to read about them. Ive found that God's Word speaks of Heaven mostly in generalities and only a select few prophets were even allowed to see glimpses of it through visions and dreams. Christ Himself, who has intimate knowledge of heaven, only speaks of it a few times and vaguely.

[/QUOTE]

The only rule or parameters is the one God sets.
read the book of revelation or any of Christ's parables they contain a great deal of information on what heaven and God are like.

 

[FluffyNinja]

since I never said any of that your point if moot.

I was not making the point to refute anything that you posted. It was just a point. Why are you so defensive?

Splitting hairs.

Probably so. I think we're saying the same thing here but your response just didn't answer Rough Draft's questions directly. You minced words by saying that sin cannot be allowed to exist in heaven. His questions were, "There is no free will in heaven?" and (paraphrasing)"One cannot choose to sin in heaven?" I think Lucifer proved that it was possible. Your reply was simply the result of one doing so. God cannot tolerate it and indeed it results in banishment from heaven.

technically yes he did. Sin could be defined as anything outside the will of God. The first sinner was in fact Lucifer.
why would sin not be removed from heaven? if it wasn't then that would defeat the entire purpose of Christ's death.

We don't KNOW that Lucifer was the sinner; we only know that he sinned against God. We DO KNOW that sin entered the world through one man...Adam (Romans 5:12).

I don't believe there is sin in heaven, in God's presence. I know He cant tolerate it. He's been pretty consistent on that point. But either God grants us free will to obey Him or He doesn't. And that will does not simply come from our fleshly bodies, it's spiritual. So either that free will follows us after the body dies or it does not. To assume that it is not possible to turn against God after occupying Heaven is to say that Lucifer's story is somehow not true. I think this shows that God bends no one to His will, even in heaven. If it doesn't, why let Lucifer have free reign over hell and Earth. Why not simply force him to be obedient? God wants to be worshipped, and obeyed...He demands it of His children. He's never forced them to. He promises reward for those who do and punishment for those who do not. I take Him at His word. [/QUOTE]

The only rule or parameters is the one God sets.

Agreed!

read the book of revelation or any of Christ's parables they contain a great deal of information on what heaven and God are like.

I have read both. Extensively. I wasn't talking about the inhabitants, weather conditions, living arrangements, etc.....I was specifically taking about what the "rules" or parameters for what spirits in heaven will be doing, saying, how they will be interacting, what our capabilities, or powers, or limitations will be. The fact is, we don't know. As you stated, God sets those.....only He knows. We know some things...very few. Angels rejoicing, singing praises, glorifying God on His throne and the Savior on His right hand. No pain, no sin, no death, no suffering. A place of many rooms prepared for us. However, most of it is still quite enigmatic and I think its meant to be that way. I believe some things are meant to remain a mystery to our feeble minds. (1Corinthians 2:9) you cant accept that?

 

[FluffyNinja]

technically yes he did. Sin could be defined as anything outside the will of God. The first sinner was in fact Lucifer.
why would sin not be removed from heaven? if it wasn't then that would defeat the entire purpose of Christ's death.

Sorry, too late to edit but meant to say, "We don't KNOW that Lucifer was the FIRST sinner........"

 

[Paralogic]

An atheist rant from a few months back was to the effect that "God is supposedly this egomaniacal being who constantly demands worship and praise."

You should have asked them: which one?

 

[roughdraft274]

I didn't say that at all. You're being intentionally obtuse again. I know where you're attempting to go with this. I simply refuse to be dragged there.

I'd say the same thing if I didn't have an answer

 

[FluffyNinja]

I'd say the same thing if I didn't have an answer

I never claimed to have THE answer. I simply shared what I believed. I just don't want to go down the road of debating God's intentions, abilities, and characteristics with you.

 

[Patrickt]

An atheist rant from a few months back was to the effect that "God is supposedly this egomaniacal being who constantly demands worship and praise."

Recently I was presented with a cogent answer to this charge:

God does not need our praise, He does not need to be glorified. He is complete and sufficient unto Himself. The thing is that we need to praise and glorify God for our own benefit and the benefit of others around us.

Why? Because we need to know and others need to know that God is God, and we are not; God is the means to salvation and everlasting life; God has the power to provide this for us; we must by our own free will, because we are creatures of free will, accept this great gift and the authority of He who gives it.

Merely to acknowledge and repeat these facts is to praise and glorify God in the highest possible terms.

No, god has low self esteem. And, looking at what he has wrought, he should have low self esteem. But, if you need to grovel, go for it.

 

[nota bene]

Too bad you confuse gratitude with groveling. What's sad is not being able to appreciate what is good and beautiful beyond our imaginings in what God has created.

 

[ludin]

No, god has low self esteem. And, looking at what he has wrought, he should have low self esteem. But, if you need to grovel, go for it.

He has wrought nothing. We bring it on ourselves.

 

[Mr Person]

Mortals purporting to be able to define the nature of an entity that they simultaneously declare is omnipotent and omnipresent. Oh, and all-knowing?


Doesn't that strike anyone as rather presumptuous and impossible anyway? It has the same fault as religion lite known as "Intelligent Design": If there were such a designer, only that entity (or any above it) could say what must and must not be designed. If a lesser being could tell, than the lesser being would know as much as the designer, in which case you've reduced your designer to perhaps a more advanced alien rather than a God.