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Why God Wants Praise [W:65]

No, I'm completely aware of how silly this all looks to the unbeliever. There's nothing I can do about that. Secular explanations are completely inadequate.

Which ones are completely inadequate and what can't they explain?
 
I'm pretty much a beginner at this business of Christian apologetics. I'm sure others could state these issues better than I. Among Christians one can argue the logic reasoning of what we believe. That is, in fact, how some doctrines, like the doctrine of the Trinity, came about. But to unbelievers I think that there is only one good approach, and that is to witness to the glory of God, the offer of salvation, and our assurance of the truth of it based on our own experience. That is, to be a witness. Crossing blades with them in logic and reason just makes a hash of things.
Well said. The "problem" with Faith to those who've never truly had it is that its completely "illogical" to them. And you are correct, our "living witness".....seeing a converted life and a converted heart..... is quite often the ONLY evidence these belligerent non-believers will accept.
 
Well that's just obviously wrong.

Do we have free will if/after we get into heaven?

Obviously, to some degree. Lucifer himself was with God, in heaven if you will, and willfully chose to oppose God.
 
Which ones are completely inadequate and what can't they explain?

Stop with the nitpicking already. We get it. You have no faith in that which cannot be "proven" to you through scientific reasoning, and credible, empirical evidence, right? Do you think you've posted anything in this thread that hasn't been posted half a million times already by atheists, agnostics, and non-believers attempting to show us poor, ignorant Christians just how wrong we are?

You've said nothing new. You're repeating the same old shtick. The same old talking points. Why do you have this apparent need to tear down the faith of others? Why does it bother people like you so much that someone else DOES believe in God? Has someone of faith harmed you personally? Do you feel threatened by them? Were you an alter boy abused by a priest or something? I don't get it. You don't like people of faith? Fine, that's your prerogative.

It's obvious, to an unemotional reader with no ulterior motives at least, that he meant that a "secular" (scientific) explanation for faith or for God's existence would be inadequate or impossible. I wouldn't have worded it the way he did, but I'm pretty certain that is what he meant.
 
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Obviously, to some degree. Lucifer himself was with God, in heaven if you will, and willfully chose to oppose God.

So people sin in heaven? I mean, if it's all the same people, and they have free will, and some of them sinned before going to heaven, they are still sinning in heaven, correct? Or do they no longer have free will to sin in heaven? I'm sorry for asking, it's just not often you meet someone that knows the answers to these kinds of questions.
 
Stop with the nitpicking already. We get it. You have no faith in that which cannot be "proven" to you through scientific reasoning, and credible, empirical evidence, right? Do you think you've posted anything in this thread that hasn't been posted half a million times already by atheists, agnostics, and non-believers attempting to show us poor, ignorant Christians just how wrong we are?

You've said nothing new. You're repeating the same old shtick. The same old talking points. Why do you have this apparent need to tear down the faith of others? Why does it bother people like you so much that someone else DOES believe in God? Has someone of faith harmed you personally? Do you feel threatened by them? Were you an alter boy abused by a priest or something? I don't get it. You don't like people of faith? Fine, that's your prerogative.

It's obvious, to an unemotional reader with no ulterior motives at least, that he meant that a "secular" (scientific) explanation for faith or for God's existence would be inadequate or impossible. I wouldn't have worded it the way he did, but I'm pretty certain that is what he meant.

I'm sorry that simple questions get you so emotional. I don't know why it would upset you for someone to ask someone to offer an example after that person makes a claim of something. I wasn't sure what he meant and was asking for clarification. And if it's ok with you, I'll wait for his answer since your reponse is "this is exactly what he meant. I'm pretty sure".
 
So people sin in heaven? I mean, if it's all the same people, and they have free will, and some of them sinned before going to heaven, they are still sinning in heaven, correct? Or do they no longer have free will to sin in heaven? I'm sorry for asking, it's just not often you meet someone that knows the answers to these kinds of questions.
Quite creative. Who said people sin in heaven? It wasn't me. Does free will automatically equal sin in your book?
 
I'm sorry that simple questions get you so emotional. I don't know why it would upset you for someone to ask someone to offer an example after that person makes a claim of something. I wasn't sure what he meant and was asking for clarification. And if it's ok with you, I'll wait for his answer since your reponse is "this is exactly what he meant. I'm pretty sure".
I'm not emotional at all. Just pointing out that nothing you've asked or implied is even remotely new. Its old in fact. Boring even. So, you've been hurt or harmed by the faith of someone else I'll take it? You failed to answer.
 
I'm pretty much a beginner at this business of Christian apologetics. I'm sure others could state these issues better than I. Among Christians one can argue the logic reasoning of what we believe. That is, in fact, how some doctrines, like the doctrine of the Trinity, came about. But to unbelievers I think that there is only one good approach, and that is to witness to the glory of God, the offer of salvation, and our assurance of the truth of it based on our own experience. That is, to be a witness. Crossing blades with them in logic and reason just makes a hash of things.

Your personal testimony is your best weapon.
The reason is that in order to disprove it they have to call you a liar then prove that you are lying.
That is pretty much impossible.

I can't tell or count how many times that God has met a need in my life or has
Healed someone or allowed me to be in the right place to help someone else.
 
Your personal testimony is your best weapon.
The reason is that in order to disprove it they have to call you a liar then prove that you are lying.
That is pretty much impossible.

I can't tell or count how many times that God has met a need in my life or has
Healed someone or allowed me to be in the right place to help someone else.

Well that's just not right.

I don't assume a religious person is lying when they speak of relationships with god, or personal testimony. I just know that many others of other various religions also give personal testimonies of the exact same nature. So if you are an unbiased observer you have to acknowledge that not all of these gods exist simultaneously. Therefor some of the people giving personal testimony must be wrong, either by being just genuinely wrong or by being dishonest. But it's not someone's job to prove that they are a liar. It's that persons job to prove their testimony if they are trying to convince someone of it's authenticity.
 
I'm not emotional at all.
Agree to disagree I guess.

Quite creative. Who said people sin in heaven? It wasn't me. Does free will automatically equal sin in your book?

I'm just asking. It was said at one point by a Christian on this thread that free will means nothing if there isn't a right choice and a wrong choice. I would assume that the christian god would retain our free will in heaven, but if that's the case, then how can he prevent sinning in heaven? I understand, but I could be wrong, that the christian teaching is "everyone sins". So it seems that either god has to take away your free will to sin, or allow sinning in heaven. I figured someone who understands Christianity so much better than I would have a good answer to this.
 
Well that's just not right.

I don't assume a religious person is lying when they speak of relationships with god, or personal testimony. I just know that many others of other various religions also give personal testimonies of the exact same nature. So if you are an unbiased observer you have to acknowledge that not all of these gods exist simultaneously. Therefor some of the people giving personal testimony must be wrong, either by being just genuinely wrong or by being dishonest. But it's not someone's job to prove that they are a liar. It's that persons job to prove their testimony if they are trying to convince someone of it's authenticity.

you either believe them or you don't. if you don't then that is your choice.
If you think what they say is not true then you are basically saying that they are lying.

so unless you have proof that they are then well the only one you can convince is yourself.

I already acknowledge that they all don't exist. There is one God and a bunch of false ones.
if you choose not to believe in anything then that is your choice as well.

hence free will.
 
Agree to disagree I guess.



I'm just asking. It was said at one point by a Christian on this thread that free will means nothing if there isn't a right choice and a wrong choice. I would assume that the christian god would retain our free will in heaven, but if that's the case, then how can he prevent sinning in heaven? I understand, but I could be wrong, that the christian teaching is "everyone sins". So it seems that either god has to take away your free will to sin, or allow sinning in heaven. I figured someone who understands Christianity so much better than I would have a good answer to this.

Well, if you're clear on what "sin" is, if you understand that the wages of sin is death, if you know that Christ promised that there would be no death (therefore, there can be no sin in heaven), and if you recognize that His death was propitiation for sin, then you have an answer.
 
you either believe them or you don't. if you don't then that is your choice.
If you think what they say is not true then you are basically saying that they are lying.

so unless you have proof that they are then well the only one you can convince is yourself.

I already acknowledge that they all don't exist. There is one God and a bunch of false ones.
if you choose not to believe in anything then that is your choice as well.

hence free will.

Sorry, but this is illogical. I can think someone is incorrect with out thinking they are lying. It's dishonest of you to throw that baggage on to me. There is no "basically saying that they are lying". Incorrect an lying are two very different things Ludin.

The rest of your post seemed not to address any of my points other than agreeing with me that many people make the exact same claim, but for some reason I should agree with group A but not group B because you know they worship a false god. Which really doesn't help the discussion unless I'm missing something?
 
Well, if you're clear on what "sin" is, if you understand that the wages of sin is death, if you know that Christ promised that there would be no death (therefore, there can be no sin in heaven), and if you recognize that His death was propitiation for sin, then you have an answer.

That's not as clear for me as I think it should have been, sorry.

I take it that sin comes in various forms, such as the kind you are born with that is passed down hereditary style and then sin can also be impure thoughts or actions taken by a person. I might be wrong or expressing this unclearly, but do you think I'm mostly correct?

Wage of sin is death. By this do you mean just death, or hell, or no heaven?

Christ promised no death. By this I'm assuming you mean that he promised to people that worship him that they get into heaven? But these people still sinned while on earth at various moments correct? I'm not sure how this means no sin in heaven. I can't fantasize about a woman in heaven? Or would I not go to heaven in the first place because I like to fantasize? Or would god take away my impulse to fantasize?
 
Agree to disagree I guess.



I'm just asking. It was said at one point by a Christian on this thread that free will means nothing if there isn't a right choice and a wrong choice. I would assume that the christian god would retain our free will in heaven, but if that's the case, then how can he prevent sinning in heaven? I understand, but I could be wrong, that the christian teaching is "everyone sins". So it seems that either god has to take away your free will to sin, or allow sinning in heaven. I figured someone who understands Christianity so much better than I would have a good answer to this.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but
the gift of God is eternal life.

Because sin will not be allowed in heaven.
God doesn't have to take away free will as Christ has washed sin away for those that believe in Him.

you also have to understand the context of death used in the bible. death in the bible means a separation of.
The soul is separated from the body.
in the story of the prodigal son there was separation between father and son. the father referred to him that was dead but is now alive.

sin will die in heaven. It will be permanently separated from God and man forever. hence the final death.
 
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Sorry, but this is illogical. I can think someone is incorrect with out thinking they are lying. It's dishonest of you to throw that baggage on to me. There is no "basically saying that they are lying". Incorrect an lying are two very different things Ludin.

They are either telling the truth or they are lying. there are only two choices to pick from. it isn't baggage at all it is just a reality.
I can tell you of a number of ways I that God has met needs in my life and continues to do so.
I can tell you of people that were healed of sickness and disease and left the doctors questioning and having
no idea how it happened.

Whether you believe them is totally up to you.

The rest of your post seemed not to address any of my points other than agreeing with me that many people make the exact same claim, but for some reason I should agree with group A but not group B because you know they worship a false god. Which really doesn't help the discussion unless I'm missing something?

Again you can believe in whatever you want to believe in hence free will.
I can only point pray and direct you to truth. the rest is up to God and the Holy Spirit.
 
That's not as clear for me as I think it should have been, sorry.

I take it that sin comes in various forms, such as the kind you are born with that is passed down hereditary style and then sin can also be impure thoughts or actions taken by a person. I might be wrong or expressing this unclearly, but do you think I'm mostly correct?

Wage of sin is death. By this do you mean just death, or hell, or no heaven?

Christ promised no death. By this I'm assuming you mean that he promised to people that worship him that they get into heaven? But these people still sinned while on earth at various moments correct? I'm not sure how this means no sin in heaven. I can't fantasize about a woman in heaven? Or would I not go to heaven in the first place because I like to fantasize? Or would god take away my impulse to fantasize?

You're being so disingenuous here that you've persuaded me that I'd be pearl-casting if I expended any more energy talking to you.
 
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but
the gift of God is eternal life.

Because sin will not be allowed in heaven.
God doesn't have to take away free will as Christ has washed sin away for those that believe in Him.

you also have to understand the context of death used in the bible. death in the bible means a separation of.
The soul is separated from the body.
in the story of the prodigal son there was separation between father and son. the father referred to him that was dead but is now alive.

sin will die in heaven. It will be permanently separated from God and man forever. hence the final death.

OK. So how will I be stopped from lets say, having impure thoughts, in heaven if I have free will? Will god just remove that desire from me?
 
You're being so disingenuous here that you've persuaded me that I'd be pearl-casting if I expended any more energy talking to you.

That wasn't disingenuous. It's a real question. I highly doubt that anyone has a great cogent answer to them, but it was still a sincere question none the less. I was merely trying to make sure that we are on the same page. I know that many people think that concepts like sin are very simple but in reality if you ask a dozen people about it you just might get half a dozen or more answers. So I was merely trying to make sure that when you say sin you are referring to the same type as I thought you were.
 
They are either telling the truth or they are lying. there are only two choices to pick from. it isn't baggage at all it is just a reality.
No. Saying that someone is lying suggests that the person is telling you something that they know isn't true.

Lie:noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth.

If someone is simply mistaken then they aren't lying by the standard definition. There are not only two choices. Period.


I can tell you of a number of ways I that God has met needs in my life and continues to do so.
I can tell you of people that were healed of sickness and disease and left the doctors questioning and having
no idea how it happened.

Whether you believe them is totally up to you.
I don't doubt you and I don't doubt your sincerity. My only question is how do I seperate that claim from the claims of another person of another religion that has the same claims. I think both people are sincere, but you and I both think that at least one of them would be incorrect in which god they are attributing these things to, correct?

So my entire point here is what mechanism do I use that tells me person of religion A is correct when he says god A does amazing things and has healed the sick or if person B is correct when he makes the same claims of god B or if neither are correct? Because from where I'm standing, I don't see a clear valid way of saying "Yep, A is right, B is wrong".


Again you can believe in whatever you want to believe in hence free will.
I can only point pray and direct you to truth. the rest is up to God and the Holy Spirit.

That's fine, and I understand. That, I think, is the correct answer. There is no way to confirm such personal testimonies. Since personal testimony is by definition first person. I'm just asking that you be polite and don't accuse me of calling/thinking that religious people are lying.
 
Agree to disagree I guess.



I'm just asking. It was said at one point by a Christian on this thread that free will means nothing if there isn't a right choice and a wrong choice. I would assume that the christian god would retain our free will in heaven, but if that's the case, then how can he prevent sinning in heaven? I understand, but I could be wrong, that the christian teaching is "everyone sins". So it seems that either god has to take away your free will to sin, or allow sinning in heaven. I figured someone who understands Christianity so much better than I would have a good answer to this.
I'm not sure that you are even aware what sin IS at this point. It does not seem that you do. Before I answer, what is sin according to you?
 
OK. So how will I be stopped from lets say, having impure thoughts, in heaven if I have free will? Will god just remove that desire from me?

Those will be gone. They will be destroyed with the rest of sin. You will not be the same person in heaven as you are now.
You will be transformed into a new person.
 
I'm not sure that you are even aware what sin IS at this point. It does not seem that you do. Before I answer, what is sin according to you?

Sin is defined by various churches in various ways. That's why I've been trying to get a coherent definition of it from someone on this thread for quite a while now.

I would assume sin is either the act of something that goes against gods will or/also the inherited nature of being unworthy because of actions performed by adam and eve.
 
Those will be gone. They will be destroyed with the rest of sin. You will not be the same person in heaven as you are now.
You will be transformed into a new person.

Ok. So when someone goes to heaven they no longer have any impulses that would lead to sinning and they are transformed in to a new person? Thanks for the answer. I've never heard that before.

So my question now is, if god removes your desires and impulses, is that not negating your free will by definition?
 
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