Why go for prostitutes

[rivrrat]

You said you were unscathed by it, and I say no you weren't, all that we do becomes a part of us. Unscathed means unharmed, and it possibly may not have bothered you, but I'd have to think most of these girls would have to be buzzed up to put on this act over and over.

What do you mean by "buzzed up"? Are actors and actresses "buzzed up" when they act in movies? That's all prostitute does... she acts.

And yes, I came out unharmed. I was much more harmed by my previous job working as an adventure guide and working ski patrol than I ever was during my stint as call girl.

Your number of friends would be more limited. You'd have less to choose from, and the pickins are already slim as it is. It's your perogative what you consider honorable, but most waitresses aren't giving their bodies away for money. Your body is where you live. It should be respected. This isn't being respectful of your body in MHO.

I am picky about my friends.

Waitresses aren't giving their bodies away for money? How is it they perform their jobs? With telepathic powers? They have to do physical work, which requires the use of their body. They have to "play nice" to customers, no matter how rude the customer is. (in other words... act) They get paid to use their body and acting skills to serve and please a customer in a restaurant. So what is it she's selling?

As for being respectful... obviously that's a matter of opinion. I see nothing disrespectful about it.

I'd have to think mostly you did if you wanted any money.

Same as any other job, yes. If I want my paycheck now, I have to come into work. But do I *have* to come into work? Not at all. I can choose to stay home if I wish. I can choose to quit if I wish. Your implication was that I was somehow forced against my will to have sex with men who solicited me. That's just not the case. If I misread your post, then that's my fault and I apologize.

I'd have to think it would be a fantasy for anyone doing this line of work. You couldn't do it in reality. I don't see how it could be real to you.

I'm really not sure I understand this statement. You don't see how *what* could be real to me? And why in the world would it be the fantasy of any prostitute to have her client fall for her? I don't deny that there are perhaps some, since prostitutes are representative of the population in general and there are plenty of women who are so desperate to be loved they will do absolutely anything to obtain it. But to say that all women feel that way would be a gross and inaccurate generalization. Same with saying that every prostitute would want that.

You'd just have to set them straight. "I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with you, sorry." You could continue to have a professional relationship with someone after they professed their love if they backed off, it could be possible.

Of course I did. Hell, I've done that with just personal sexual relationships in general. Tell a guy that all I want is a sexual relationship, we agree to that, we proceed with said relationship for a period of time and then he starts getting all emotional. Not all men, obviously.. but it happens. Since the clients are representative of men in our society, and some are prone to be unable to separate sex from love, and/or are prone to confuse infatuation with love, it only stands to reason that some male clients are going to do this as well.

Yes, it could be possible to continue a professional relationship with them, but I stated that I personally found it too difficult and stressful to do so. That's just me.

This would depend on the person, and if they were a tease or not. Some people like this sort of thing.

Indeed some people do. But the fact that some people do does not lend itself to the generalization that all prostitutes would want that to happen. Or any professional for that matter.

 

[Marilyn Monroe]

What do you mean by "buzzed up"? Are actors and actresses "buzzed up" when they act in movies? That's all prostitute does... she acts.

Buzzed up meaning on drugs. Acting and doing are two different things. This is fantasy and reality.

And yes, I came out unharmed. I was much more harmed by my previous job working as an adventure guide and working ski patrol than I ever was during my stint as call girl.

Were you also an ice fisherman?

I am picky about my friends.

If you say so.

Waitresses aren't giving their bodies away for money? How is it they perform their jobs? With telepathic powers? They have to do physical work, which requires the use of their body. They have to "play nice" to customers, no matter how rude the customer is. (in other words... act) They get paid to use their body and acting skills to serve and please a customer in a restaurant. So what is it she's selling?

You have a different value system than I do.This is apples and oranges.

As for being respectful... obviously that's a matter of opinion. I see nothing disrespectful about it.

You'd have to blank it out, but it's there.

Same as any other job, yes. If I want my paycheck now, I have to come into work. But do I *have* to come into work? Not at all. I can choose to stay home if I wish. I can choose to quit if I wish. Your implication was that I was somehow forced against my will to have sex with men who solicited me. That's just not the case. If I misread your post, then that's my fault and I apologize.

I didn't mean you were forced, but some prostitutes do get raped.

I'm really not sure I understand this statement. You don't see how *what* could be real to me? And why in the world would it be the fantasy of any prostitute to have her client fall for her? I don't deny that there are perhaps some, since prostitutes are representative of the population in general and there are plenty of women who are so desperate to be loved they will do absolutely anything to obtain it. But to say that all women feel that way would be a gross and inaccurate generalization. Same with saying that every prostitute would want that.

I can't imagine any woman really liking it. I just can't.

Of course I did. Hell, I've done that with just personal sexual relationships in general. Tell a guy that all I want is a sexual relationship, we agree to that, we proceed with said relationship for a period of time and then he starts getting all emotional. Not all men, obviously.. but it happens. Since the clients are representative of men in our society, and some are prone to be unable to separate sex from love, and/or are prone to confuse infatuation with love, it only stands to reason that some male clients are going to do this as well.

Could be because they are nuts.

Yes, it could be possible to continue a professional relationship with them, but I stated that I personally found it too difficult and stressful to do so. That's just me.

If it's just acting then I don't see why you'd get stressed.

Indeed some people do. But the fact that some people do does not lend itself to the generalization that all prostitutes would want that to happen. Or any professional for that matter.

It would be uncomfortable, but so would the ogling and all the lying. You know, "oh, you're so beautiful, you have a fabulous body".

I couldn't handle all the false praise.

 

[rivrrat]

Buzzed up meaning on drugs. Acting and doing are two different things. This is fantasy and reality.

Not really. Women fake orgasms all the time. Faking it is acting. People pretend to like the people around them all the time. It's acting. Acting *is* doing. You are doing something when you're acting.

Were you also an ice fisherman?

Huh? That was out of left field

I can't imagine any woman really liking it. I just can't.

I'm sure some women do. I didn't, but I liked it more than other jobs I had. Hell will freeze over before I ever waitress again.

Could be because they are nuts.

LMAO This is very true. There are plenty of nutso folks out there. :mrgreen:

If it's just acting then I don't see why you'd get stressed.

When someone is serious about their feelings for you, and you don't feel the same way... I find that stressful. I always have. But then again, I don't like hurting people and I'm too empathetic at times.

It would be uncomfortable, but so would the ogling and all the lying. You know, "oh, you're so beautiful, you have a fabulous body".

I couldn't handle all the false praise.

Eh, that wasn't so hard to do. All men want to think they're the "biggest" and the "best you've ever had". While I value honesty, sometimes saying "No, you actually have a really small penis" just isn't a nice thing to do. It certainly is annoying, I'll give you that. In any relationship.

 

[Jerry]

No Jerry, what you don't seem to get is your stereotypical streetwalkers are the exception to the rule nowadays, not the rule itself.

Source please.

I could link you to much more than "a blog or 2" and I have linked you to sites that represent thousands of prostitutes, but you discredit those as not being "representative" and being "the exception”. On what basis do you discredit them?

I disqualify the .com you gave as a suitable source in general because I am unable to access "not-work-friendly" sites from my computer at school at all, nor from my computer at home while my kids are awake. Due to my 3am shift, I go to bed before my kids do, so the .com you gave is virtually inaccessible to me at all.

Do you have a some reputable source that gives an estimate of the percentage of "streetwalkers" vs. the rest of the sex workers? I certainly didn't see one, and if you have one, I'd like to know how they came to their conclusions.

The reason why I was asking you for your source was because I don't have a source of my own which nails down a number.

One of the closest sources I gave in our True Debate had this to say:

Expansion and normalization

One of the features of the 1990s has been an expansion of the sex industry internationally, and in the UK. The growth in Scotland, England and Wales and Northern Ireland has not been as marked as in a number of other European countries, and one plausible explanation for this is that there is no clearly legalised sector. The most extensive sex industries in Europe are in countries where aspects of prostitution are legalised: Germany; the Netherlands; Denmark and Italy. Much of the growth in the early 1990s was invisible, since it involved the off street sector, which is rarely monitored or mapped (Kelly and Regan 2000).

Your streetwalkers are the bottom of the barrel, they are the ones who hit rock bottom, they are the ones that would be more frequently "interviewed" or counseled because they are the ones in the public eye, being arrested, and being abused. They are the ones who NEED the counseling. So when you take your "representation" from those who received counseling, it's not an adequate representation at all. It eliminates all the thousands of prostitutes who are not arrested, who are not abused, and who do not feel the need to seek counseling because they have not been raped, abused, enslaved, or arrested.

The majority "class", if you will, of prostitutes in my argument were not street-walkers, they worked in brothels or out of the window in their apartment.

On top of that, you (irrationally) refuse to accept any experiences voiced by the thousands of workers that fly in the face of your presumptions.

Thousands of voices, aye?
What are their DP member names; I would like to PM them.
So far all I hear is yours.
If these “thousands of voices” are not DP members, what link to them do you have?


The Volvo Fallacy, remember?
If we are just going to express our opinions, relate experience or give counseling to someone, then accepting experience is fine. But if we are going to have a hard look at the facts of legalizing prostitution, then experience only serves to help find sources.

Your average prostitute is someone you would never guess is one.

Source please.

They permeate all facets of society. They are businesswomen, professionals, dancers, waitresses, schoolteachers, college students, your next door neighbor... they are everywhere. They live among you, they visit the same restaurants, shop at the same stores. And yet you'd never be able to single them out of a crowd. They are certainly not the exception.

Source Please.

Go check out escort sites, see how many there are... see how many women they employ.

I have already accepted the notion, from the very start, that these exceptions to the rule exist, so I don't need to reconfirm their existence.

You are not going to find those women equally represented in studies of women who are arrested, raped, and received counseling.

What source material did you compare and contrast to come to that conclusion?

I am open to your claims here, I just wish you would start giving some evidence supporting your claims.

 

[rivrrat]

Source please.

PENet: Prostitution Issues: Statistics

The ratio of on-street prostitution to off-street (sauna, massage parlor, in call-outcall escort) varies in cities depending on local law, policy and custom. Whereas street prostitution accounts for between 10 to 20% of the prostitution in larger cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York, (3) in some smaller cities with limited indoor venues (or when indoor venues are closed down) street prostitution may account for approximately 50%.(4)

And if you refuse to accept Penet as a source, then I refer you to a statement you made:

In fact some may be interested to know that I got material against prostitution from COYOTE and Penet.

I disqualify the .com you gave as a suitable source in general because I am unable to access "not-work-friendly" sites from my computer at school at all, nor from my computer at home while my kids are awake. Due to my 3am shift, I go to bed before my kids do, so the .com you gave is virtually inaccessible to me at all.

It's not my fault you choose not to access the S/M dating site. You wanted reference to such a site, I linked you directly to a site. I can do no better than that. If you want to research the ratios, non-members can do searches.

The reason why I was asking you for your source was because I don't have a source of my own which nails down a number.

So you made your claim about streetwalkers being the majority absent of any sources whatsoever?

Thousands of voices, aye?
What are their DP member names; I would like to PM them.
So far all I hear is yours.
If these “thousands of voices” are not DP members, what link to them do you have?

Prostitution Issues: Prostitutes Education Network
Prostitution Issues: COYOTE: The Sex Workers' Rights Organization
Just to give you two.

The Volvo Fallacy, remember?
If we are just going to express our opinions, relate experience or give counseling to someone, then accepting experience is fine. But if we are going to have a hard look at the facts of legalizing prostitution, then experience only serves to help find sources.

No, experience is evidence.

Source please.

Source Please.

Yeah, the women that egage in this illegal activity in secret are gonna be real forthcoming with "sources" that they do. :roll:

What source material did you compare and contrast to come to that conclusion?

It's called common sense, Jerry. If you do studies on women who are arrested, have put forth claims of abuse and/or rape, or have received counseling, how are those studies going to represent all the women who *didn't* get arrested, put forth claims of abuse, or receive counseling? Your sources only represent those who DID, not those who didn't.

 

[Jerry]

No Jerry, what you don't seem to get is your stereotypical streetwalkers are the exception to the rule nowadays, not the rule itself.

Source please.

PENet: Prostitution Issues: Statistics

Your source has this to say:

-- The ratio of on-street prostitution to off-street (sauna, massage parlor, in call-outcall escort) varies in cities depending on local law, policy and custom. Whereas street prostitution accounts for between 10 to 20% of the prostitution in larger cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York, (3) in some smaller cities with limited indoor venues (or when indoor venues are closed down) street prostitution may account for approximately 50%.(4)

Your source's first reference (#3 on that page) is "op cit., Prostitution: A Difficult Issue For Feminists.", which, as with other references in your source, comes from the book "Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry".

"Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry" is available at Amazon: Amazon.com: Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry: Books: Frederique Delacoste,Priscilla Alexander

Unable to view inside the book and see where it gets it's information from, we can not verify that it is based on any government or other credible study or survey of any sort.

A customer review of the book, on the linked Amazon page, had this to say:

I bought this book thinking that I'd be reading only stories by women in the sex industry. I have always had a fascination with how people begin anything, but especially how women or men cross the line (I don't mean that negatively) and become prostitutes. What this book is, however, is half stories from women in the industry and half academic writings on the plight of prostitutes. Not what I wanted, but still pretty good.
The stories, from street prostitutes, call girls, massage parlor workers, and strippers are often quite touching. The women, many of whom are lesbian, I've discovered in this book, choose to become prostitutes, prostitution doesn't choose them. They profess to either enjoy their job or to suffer through it not unlike clockwatchers do. Still, I can't help but read pain between the lines in these women's stories. These women are used -- well used, poorly used -- for others' whims. All of us prostitute ourselves to some end, but these women live short careers. To them, there is no glass ceiling, only plaster and dim lights in dingy rooms.

The academic essays supply some fascinating insights into how prostitution started. The authors offer facts about who prostitutes are, where they live, how the law applies to them, and how prostitutes are grouping together for safety and power.

This book, an amalgam or heartbreaking stories and academic consideration, is really a college-level reader, but for those of us who didn't study this stuff at school or are simply interested in the way prostitutes live, it still makes for interesting reading.

If you are able to give the source material found in "Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry", then we could come to a conclusion as to the reliability of the data. However, as yet we don't even have access to that data, so I can't accept it as it is.

***
Your source's #4 reference does not cite what study it got it's data from, so I can not accept that either.

And if you refuse to accept Penet as a source, then I refer you to a statement you made:

Indeed I did. Penet has links to allot of things outside of Penet, and information outside of Penet is what I sourced.

It's not my fault you choose not to access the S/M dating site. You wanted reference to such a site, I linked you directly to a site. I can do no better than that. If you want to research the ratios, non-members can do searches.

I choose to not violate my school's sexual harassment policy.
I choose not to expose my children to age-inappropriate sexual content.

Only by either risking academic probation or the sexualisation of my children can I access your link, therefore your link is inaccessible to me.

So you made your claim about streetwalkers being the majority absent of any sources whatsoever?

"Any sources what so ever" does not = a "nailed down number".
A couple of my TB sources swayed one way, while a couple others swayed another, yet non could nail down a number.

Prostitution Issues: Prostitutes Education Network
Prostitution Issues: COYOTE: The Sex Workers' Rights Organization
Just to give you two.

Keep those handy and start using them.

No, experience is evidence.

Only to the one with the experience.

I have no idea who you are or what you have don, for all I know your some 46 y/o harry fat guy who hasn't showered in 3 weeks. You certainly have not demonstrated an intimate knowledge of the sex industry, so I have no reason to assume that you have your claimed experience.

Take Capt'n Courtesy, for example. He claims to be a licensed psychotherapist. I can not identify him because it is against forum rules to post personal information; which means he couldn't link to his creds even he wanted to.

Proof enough to reasonably establish faith in his RL identity lays in the fact that he has access to to source material in the field, which he posts, and he speaks with an intimate knowledge and understanding one would expect from a professional psychotherapist. He posts his opinions and experience in various matters in concert with relevant research.

You however, simply declare that I should accept what you say simply because you say you have some experience; and also that I should accept that you have experience simply because you say you do.

Your sources are biased when they can be verified, if and eventually when, after I have to pull teeth to get them, you give them.

I have nothing to reasonably establish a faith in your identity on, so I don't trust what you say on "experience".

Therefore, your experience means exactly squat.
You haven't used it to prove anything.

Yeah, the women that egage in this illegal activity in secret are gonna be real forthcoming with "sources" that they do. :roll:

Without a source you have no basis to say that prostitutes "are everywhere" then.

It's called common sense, Jerry. If you do studies on women who are arrested, have put forth claims of abuse and/or rape, or have received counseling, how are those studies going to represent all the women who *didn't* get arrested, put forth claims of abuse, or receive counseling? Your sources only represent those who DID, not those who didn't.

Didn't see a link there.
Try again?

***
At least you putting up a better fight now then you did in the True Debate.

I, however, am moving on to the issue of pedophilia on another thread, and have much research ahead of me, so I’m afraid your apprenticeship ends here

I’ll be around; posting a quip here and there, chiming in from time to time, but I have exhausted my interest in prostitution debates.

Be well :2wave:

 

[rivrrat]

***
Your source's #4 reference does not cite what study it got it's data from, so I can not accept that either.

It has a list of sources at the bottom of the page.

I choose to not violate my school's sexual harassment policy.
I choose not to expose my children to age-inappropriate sexual content.

Only by either risking academic probation or the sexualisation of my children can I access your link, therefore your link is inaccessible to me.

That's not my problem.

Keep those handy and start using them.

I do all the time.

"Any sources what so ever" does not = a "nailed down number".
A couple of my TB sources swayed one way, while a couple others swayed another, yet non could nail down a number.

So your assertion that streetwalkers make up the majority of the sex workers was without any basis. I don't recall you providing a link to verify that assertion.

You certainly have not demonstrated an intimate knowledge of the sex industry, so I have no reason to assume that you have your claimed experience.

No, I've just not demonstrated intimate knowledge of the sex industry that coincides with your stereotype.

Without a source you have no basis to say that prostitutes "are everywhere" then.

Actually, I do. But that's okay, I accept the fact that there are people in the world that strive to keep women from having full freedom of their bodies and will ignore anything that portrays said freedom as a good and beneficial thing. While said opinions disgust me, I would never try to stop someone from having them. I only try to stop them from writing/keeping them law.

Didn't see a link there.
Try again?

common sense - definition of common sense by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
common sense
n.
Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment


common sense - Definitions from Dictionary.com
common sense
–noun sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence.

:mrgreen:

At least you putting up a better fight now then you did in the True Debate.

I, however, am moving on to the issue of pedophilia on another thread, and have much research ahead of me, so I’m afraid your apprenticeship ends here

I’ll be around; posting a quip here and there, chiming in from time to time, but I have exhausted my interest in prostitution debates.

Be well :2wave:

Agreed. Beating my head against walls of ignorance does get tiresome.

 

[Voidwar]

I am open to your claims here, I just wish you would start giving some evidence supporting your claims.

Oh Really ? Where's yours ?

Evidence sugests that the avarage John is a necrophile, sadist, pedifile or other mental case.

( BTW, its "suggests", "average", and "pedophile" )

 

[Voidwar]

That's not my problem.

HEAR HEAR

No hiding behind your children.
If he can look up sex-worker sites, then he can look at whatever and is just dodging.