Why Electric Cars Are NOT Green

[Occam's Razor]

So the end result is more efficiency, however it is not a perfect option by any means.

That is your metric for progress? Perfection? Glad you weren't in charge of getting us to the moon.

It is GREATLY more efficient. Plus... you get all your torque from the first rpm...

 

[carlinkid]

That is your metric for progress? Perfection? Glad you weren't in charge of getting us to the moon.

It is GREATLY more efficient. Plus... you get all your torque from the first rpm...

I was just saying that these cars are advertised as perfect environmental vehicles, and some people believe its true!

 

[Occam's Razor]

I was just saying that these cars are advertised as perfect environmental vehicles, and some people believe its true!

It's ADVERTISING! Anyone that believes everything said by anyone trying to sell you something... is a fool departing his money...

 

[carlinkid]

It's ADVERTISING! Anyone that believes everything said by anyone trying to sell you something... is a fool departing his money...

Hello, haven't you noticed all those sheeple in this society

 

[Deuce]

Hello, haven't you noticed all those sheeple in this society

Hahah it's always the libertarian college students who use the term "sheeple."

Look, nobody actually thinks electric cars are perfect for anything. If that was your impression from advertising, you are just wrong. It happens. When somebody says electric cars are great, they aren't saying they are "perfect" or that there is zero environmental impact. The real world is not black and white, so don't interpret what people say in such absolute terms and things will make a lot more sense.

 

[carlinkid]

Hahah it's always the libertarian college students who use the term "sheeple."

Look, nobody actually thinks electric cars are perfect for anything. If that was your impression from advertising, you are just wrong. It happens.

I'm just making it clear because I can't understand why people will just believe everything they're told. this thread was intended to clear up a couple of facts and spark debate. and btw, I'll give,you libertarian, but I am not a college student.

 

[jaeger19]

Just thought I would jump in here. Just wanted to point out that the health dangers between nuclear power and coal and other fossil fuel burning. Far more people have likely died as the result of respiratory disorders, lung infections, and cancer produced by the burning of fossil fuels.. as compared to the Use of nuclear power.. even if you calculate the number of deaths by dropping the Bomb on Japan

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hello, haven't you noticed all those sheeple in this society

... to levels you can't imagine...

 

[Deuce]

I'm just making it clear because I can't understand why people will just believe everything they're told. this thread was intended to clear up a couple of facts and spark debate. and btw, I'll give,you libertarian, but I am not a college student.

People don't believe what you are suggesting they believe in this thread. Perhaps someone told you they believe this, and you believed that.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Internal Combustion Engine efficiency: 25-30%
Electric Motor efficiency: 95%

Pollutants are much easier to mitigate when centrally produced, impossible when produced in distribution.

Yes, you are shifting to a far more efficient production, transmission, and efficient use of power.

Debate over!

Lets assume you are correct. How long do electric cars last in the winter when people want the heaters on?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Lets assume you are correct. How long do electric cars last in the winter when people want the heaters on?

ROFLMAO..... Everyone is stranded in the middle of the freeway and freeze to death... obviously...

Give me a break...

 

[joko104]

Lets assume you are correct. How long do electric cars last in the winter when people want the heaters on?

I believe mileage estimates for such cars excludes air conditioning and heat.

Why all the waste of transmission of the energy to and then lose in charging battery? Why not just put little steam engines in them with coal burning boxes? That would eliminate a great deal of 1. burning coal to 2. make steam to 3. turn a turbine to convert that 4. electricity to 5. transform it to the correct current to 6. send it thru transmission lines to 7. a battery charger to 8. charge the batteries to 9. power an electric motor. The laws of thermal dynamics on energy conversion says each step is lost energy.

Instead, 1.) burn coal in the car to 2.) create steam to 3.) power the car. 300% more efficient to just burn the coal in the car and directly power it with the steam produced.

Claiming electric car are "green" is ridiculous.

 

[joko104]

ROFLMAO..... Everyone is stranded in the middle of the freeway and freeze to death... obviously...

Give me a break...

True, you forgot a heat strokes in the summer.

 

[joko104]

I've had 2 green cars. A 1971 Green Lincoln Towncar sedan and it even had a green interior, and a green Jaguar XKR coupe.

 

[Lord of Planar]

True, you forgot a heat strokes in the summer.

Yep.

What electric cars don't have is the waste heat, that ICE cars use for heating in the winter. Spare power in the summer for air conditioning.

 

[joko104]

Just thought I would jump in here. Just wanted to point out that the health dangers between nuclear power and coal and other fossil fuel burning. Far more people have likely died as the result of respiratory disorders, lung infections, and cancer produced by the burning of fossil fuels.. as compared to the Use of nuclear power.. even if you calculate the number of deaths by dropping the Bomb on Japan

You have no proof of that whatsoever. Coal and other fossil fuels being burned now doesn't have the capacity or potential to kill people and life 10,000 years from now. Nuclear does.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yep.

What electric cars don't have is the waste heat, that ICE cars use for heating in the winter. Spare power in the summer for air conditioning.

OMG! Did you just call waste heat due to 70% of your fuel never reaching the wheels as horsepower... a plus?

ROFLMMFAO...............

First off.. just for grins... arguably the best selling car of all time had no a/c and poor to nonexistent heat... the Beatle.

But seriously, these are NOT problems. So, you'll trade 70% of your horsepower for heat and a/c, but won't trade anything on an EV... got it. You are what is known as a naysaying obstructionist.

UGG! CLUB BETTER, MORE POWER
Ya, but I kill a lot more game with a bow and arrow
CLUB BETTER

Got it

 

[Dragonfly]

My guess is that most of the people who adamantly bash everything and all things electric-car would have also told these guys that they're wasting their time.

Nobody is saying that the electric cars of 2013 are the perfect solution to fix all of the worlds pollution, energy, and transportation problems.

There's an evolution to all technology. What's learned today will go into making things better tomorrow.

Today's electric cars are not far from the Wright brother's plane pictured above.

Yes - there's more work that's needed.
Yes - it's not perfect.
Yes - there are some issues to work out.

To stubbornly cling to the gasoline/oil combustion engine as your holy grail seems asinine. I don't get why anyone does that.

The electric car is an ALTERNATIVE technology that has great promise.

Just like solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, and some other things have promise as well.

It's called working towards future. It's developing an alternative solution to a problem we face today.

You people bashing this stuff act like it's being forced down your throat. Or that there are people saying it's THE one and only alternative and you have no choice but to accept it.

Last I checked the vast majority of cars being sold were standard gasoline and oil cars.

Why is working towards finding alternative modes of powering a vehicle such a threat to you?

Go buy a Hummer if you want. Or a Chevy Suburban.

 

[joko104]

OMG! Did you just call waste heat due to 70% of your fuel never reaching the wheels as horsepower... a plus?

ROFLMMFAO...............

First off.. just for grins... arguably the best selling car of all time had no a/c and poor to nonexistent heat... the Beatle.

But seriously, these are NOT problems. So, you'll trade 70% of your horsepower for heat and a/c, but won't trade anything on an EV... got it. You are what is known as a naysaying obstructionist.

UGG! CLUB BETTER, MORE POWER
Ya, but I kill a lot more game with a bow and arrow
CLUB BETTER

Got it

Once again, you argue the absurd myth that electric cars magically have there batteries recharged requiring no energy whatsoever, and then compare that to fossil fuel cars. Total, 100% non-reality on your part.

The VW Beetle of the past was crap. Though maybe cool to wannabe 60s hippies in a fantasyland.

Nor do cars give up 70% of their "horsepower" for ac/ or heat. Most give up approximately 2 horsepower on average for a/c and 1/4th of 1 horsepower for heat.

Personally? There is no such thing as a decent or acceptable car without a/c and heat.

What brand and model EV do you have? Or are your messages truly 100% fantasy?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Once again, you argue the absurd myth that electric cars magically have there batteries recharged requiring no energy whatsoever, and then compare that to fossil fuel cars. Total, 100% non-reality on your part.

No... I'm not. Not in the least. If I'm talking about power generation at power plants and delivery being better than trucking and pipelines, I'm not ignoring where the energy comes from. I assume everyone that is intelligent enough to navigate the web ALREADY KNOWS THIS. Nothing is being ignored.

The VW Beetle of the past was crap. Though maybe cool to wannabe 60s hippies in a fantasyland.

Yes, crap... that sold like crazy because it filled a need.

Nor do cars give up 70% of their "horsepower" for ac/ or heat. Most give up approximately 2 horsepower on average for a/c and 1/4th of 1 horsepower for heat.

It doesn't matter. Only 35-30% reaches the wheels to begin with, a/c just drains more. You are arguing that ICE is better because it produces waste heat. So on the whole you are arguing for the full 70% inefficiency of the ICE.

Personally? There is no such thing as a decent or acceptable car without a/c and heat.

What brand and model EV do you have? Or are your messages truly 100% fantasy?

I've been on the build team for several, and have built and driven a Ford Ranger. Quite familiar. Quite real. You?

 

[joko104]

My guess is that most of the people who adamantly bash everything and all things electric-car would have also told these guys that they're wasting their time.

Nobody is saying that the electric cars of 2013 are the perfect solution to fix all of the worlds pollution, energy, and transportation problems.

There's an evolution to all technology. What's learned today will go into making things better tomorrow.

Today's electric cars are not far from the Wright brother's plane pictured above.

Yes - there's more work that's needed.
Yes - it's not perfect.
Yes - there are some issues to work out.

To stubbornly cling to the gasoline/oil combustion engine as your holy grail seems asinine. I don't get why anyone does that.

The electric car is an ALTERNATIVE technology that has great promise.

Just like solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, and some other things have promise as well.

It's called working towards future. It's developing an alternative solution to a problem we face today.

You people bashing this stuff act like it's being forced down your throat. Or that there are people saying it's THE one and only alternative and you have no choice but to accept it.

Last I checked the vast majority of cars being sold were standard gasoline and oil cars.

Why is working towards finding alternative modes of powering a vehicle such a threat to you?

Go buy a Hummer if you want. Or a Chevy Suburban.

What a bizarre message.

They electric motors back during the Wright brothers flight. That's not an electric motor on it, is it?

I don't like Hummers or Suburbans. I've come to particularly like Mercedes. Particularly their twin turbocharged, direct cylinder injection, water-air intercooled V12 series. 794 horsepower and 1012 ft/lbs torque. 19 highway, 12 mpg city. Which is notably better than the supercharged odd-brand Import SUV and definitely better than the old dually. The old little Ford Ranger gets 21 hwy, the Mrs Mercedes stationwagon gets about 22 mpg, - a few others. But the old British Mini Copper - that does have factory air - gets over 40 mpg and it'll do 100+. Kind of a cool little car, unlike Hitler's "car for the masses" VWs.

I do have an electric "car." It is a Cushman little electric truck. I'll do a good 15 mph, can go up to about 20 miles, takes about 4 hours to charge. I haven't used it in about a year. Picked it up along side the road for sale some time ago figuring it'd be good for hauling trash to the street. Its faster to just carry it than go mess with it. Some of the kids have fun with it though.

You just assert that electric cars are the wave of the future as if THAT is the certainty and only possibility.

What model and brand electric car do you have?

 

[joko104]

No... I'm not. Not in the least. If I'm talking about power generation at power plants and delivery being better than trucking and pipelines, I'm not ignoring where the energy comes from. I assume everyone that is intelligent enough to navigate the web ALREADY KNOWS THIS. Nothing is being ignored.



Yes, crap... that sold like crazy because it filled a need.



It doesn't matter. Only 35-30% reaches the wheels to begin with, a/c just drains more. You are arguing that ICE is better because it produces waste heat. So on the whole you are arguing for the full 70% inefficiency of the ICE.



I've been on the build team for several, and have built and driven a Ford Ranger. Quite familiar. Quite real. You?

Spam sold like crazy too. Cheap crap always sells. I've never cared much for cheap junk. I'm fortunate enough to be past bare minimal needs in life. Never ever would want to go back to that.

You presenting the 30-35% efficiency of ICEs. But avoid mentioning the long list of inefficiencies that come before you have charged batteries in EVs.

The issue of this thread is whether EVs NOW are "green." No case has been made that they are because the actual "energy" source is totally avoided.

Will EVs and electrical generation become more efficient? Better batteries. Sure. So do ICEs. In approximately the last 2 decades, efficiency has on average more than doubled. People who want to drive cars of the same quality as the base EV get up to 50 mpg now. Yet all the modern comforts and meeting regulations too. They certainly are cleaner.

Why do you declare it must be EVs in the future? What happened to the magic of fuel cells everyone was declaring the wave of the future up until about 4 years ago?

 

[Dragonfly]

You just assert that electric cars are the wave of the future as if THAT is the certainty and only possibility.

Please quote where I said any such thing.

What model and brand electric car do you have?

I don't own one, and I've stated why more than once in other threads.

 

[joko104]

However, what is missing for some of us is the aesthetic values of the vehicle. You could argue that a paint-by-numbers picture has just as many colors as a Rembrandt - and then declare the first is superior it cost 3,000,000th less. I don't like the aesthetics of EVs. To reduce my life to the goal of bare minimal for the sake of efficiencies. It is cheaper to eat at cheap restaurants and you get the same calories and ever far more for the dollar - All-U-Can-Eat even at Golden Corral. I don't eat at Golden Corral.

The electric/fossil fuel hybrid has potential and practical aspects, most notable the fact that there is redundancy in the event of a mechanical breakdown. Unfortunately, the only cool hybrid went bankrupt in deference to the 100% EV performance car - which is not very fast for a performance car nor the price.

 

[joko104]

Please quote where I said any such thing.

You're right about that. You didn't say that. Sorry.