Why don't you want your government to rule religiously if religious people share your values?

[ataraxia]

Only with children...

Many adults never grow up- they still keep playing all sorts of fun imaginary games- like making each other “blessed” or “it”.

 

[Daisy]

Many adults never grow up- they still keep playing all sorts of fun imaginary games- like making each other “blessed” or “it”.

It's a greeting, like "Merry Christmas" is a greeting...I thank the person's intent and move on...that is the adult way of doing things...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

A huge problem with all this (one atheists seem to shy away from discussing) is that if there truly is no God, then "religion" and belief in "God" and all of the many trappings of "religious people", organizations etc, are all purely natural things.

By definition (for the atheist) unnatural things cannot exist so objecting to religions and God and so on is no different to objecting to homosexuality or transgenderism or any other aspect of reality; if people believing in things that are not true has arisen naturally though evolution and anthropology then what are they all actually objecting to if not nature itself?

 

[ataraxia]

A huge problem with all this (one atheists seem to shy away from discussing) is that if there truly is no God, then "religion" and belief in "God" and all of the many trappings of "religious people", organizations etc, are all purely natural things.

By definition (for the atheist) unnatural things cannot exist so objecting to religions and God and so on is no different to objecting to homosexuality or transgenderism or any other aspect of reality; if people believing in things that are not true has arisen naturally though evolution and anthropology then what are they all actually objecting to if not nature itself?

Not really. There is a whole category of social constructs. These include things like systems of law and justice, governments, systems of currency, languages and all their laws of grammar and vocabulary, social norms and customs, manners and fashions of dress, etc... these things don’t exist in nature. There is nothing natural about them. They have no existence or meaning outside of human societies. I suspect religion is one of those things, rather than something existing out in nature.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Not really. There is a whole category of social constructs. These include things like systems of law and justice, governments, systems of currency, languages and all their laws of grammar and vocabulary, social norms and customs, manners and fashions of dress, etc... these things don’t exist in nature. There is nothing natural about them. They have no existence or meaning outside of human societies. I suspect religion is one of those things, rather than something existing out in nature.

Well I can't agree with this reasoning, people exist because of the forces of nature (for the atheist anyway) these are cold, dry, laws of nature, physics, chemistry, biochemistry - I don't see how all these forces can lead to something that you can call "not natural" I just don't.

 

[Dragonfly]

unnatural things cannot exist

*sigh*

Unnatural, or perhaps do you mean supernatural?

A motorcycle is unnatural.
Not sure what I've been riding all these years if it cannot exist.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

*sigh*

Unnatural, or perhaps do you mean supernatural?

A motorcycle is unnatural.
Not sure what I've been riding all these years if it cannot exist.

A motorcycle is not unnatural, no tool is unnatural, no product of nature can be unnatural:



You really need to think things through some more before posting here.

 

[ataraxia]

Well I can't agree with this reasoning, people exist because of the forces of nature (for the atheist anyway) these are cold, dry, laws of nature, physics, chemistry, biochemistry - I don't see how all these forces can lead to something that you can call "not natural" I just don't.

Most people would not consider the current value of the US dollar or the laws of English grammar "natural". I guess if you think of it as the above, they ultimately kind of are, indirectly- if you want to think of them that way. But most people consider them "man-made" systems- much like other tools we make like screwdrivers, cars, chainsaws, and snowblowers. They are things we have created because we have thought they help us. But if we stop making them, they don't exist in nature. There is nothing natural about them.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Most people would not consider the current value of the US dollar or the laws of English grammar "natural". I guess if you think of it as the above, they ultimately kind of are, indirectly- if you want to think of them that way. But most people consider them "man-made" systems- much like other tools we make like screwdrivers, cars, chainsaws, and snowblowers. They are things we have created because we have thought they help us. But if we stop making them, they don't exist in nature. There is nothing natural about them.

But they do exist in nature if we and what we do are part of nature.

Like I said earlier, atheists really do seem to struggle with this.

 

[vegas giants]

A huge problem with all this (one atheists seem to shy away from discussing) is that if there truly is no God, then "religion" and belief in "God" and all of the many trappings of "religious people", organizations etc, are all purely natural things.

By definition (for the atheist) unnatural things cannot exist so objecting to religions and God and so on is no different to objecting to homosexuality or transgenderism or any other aspect of reality; if people believing in things that are not true has arisen naturally though evolution and anthropology then what are they all actually objecting to if not nature itself?

Then you may live under the rules of MY religion

 

[ataraxia]

But they do exist in nature if we and what we do are part of nature.

Well yeah, sure, if you think of it that way. But then, continuing to think that way, powdered wigs, buckled shoes, and tricorn hats, like the kind that was fashionable in the 18th century, would also be natural. But would it make sense that NOT wearing those things anymore is somehow unnatural?

 

[watsup]

But they do exist in nature if we and what we do are part of nature.

Like I said earlier, atheists really do seem to struggle with this.

"Nature" is normally thought of as that which occurs without "intelligent" input, as defined by the use of the human brain to make decisions. It is thus those who claim that just because humans are a "part of nature", that using their facilities to change the "natural" flow if things should also be defined as "nature" are wrong.

 

[vegas giants]

I want some form of religious ruling in my country on government level

Ok. But it will be MY religion

 

[Daisy]

A motorcycle is not unnatural, no tool is unnatural, no product of nature can be unnatural:

View attachment 67295539

You really need to think things through some more before posting here.

Bestiality exists...does that make it natural?

 

[Dragonfly]

A motorcycle is not unnatural, no tool is unnatural, no product of nature can be unnatural:

View attachment 67295539

You really need to think things through some more before posting here.

I don't know what definition you have of unnatural, but it's clearly not what most people use.

Motorcycles don't just appear in nature.
Had man not invented all kinds of things, that are unnatural, there would be no motorcycles.

 

[watsup]

But they do exist in nature if we and what we do are part of nature.

Like I said earlier, atheists really do seem to struggle with this.

To claim that because man is a "part of nature" makes all that man does "natural" is one of the most specious statements ever.

 

[Dragonfly]

atheists really do seem to struggle with this

I can assure you of one thing, some of us do struggle with theists who'll make up their own definitions for common words to try to justify whatever crazy notion they have floating around in their heads.


The struggle is real.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Bestiality exists...does that make it natural?

You misunderstand me Elvira, I'm playing devil's advocate here, showing the atheists where there logic unavoidably leads.

 

[Daisy]

You misunderstand me Elvira, I'm playing devil's advocate here, showing the atheists where there logic unavoidably leads.

Sorry...carry on...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't know what definition you have of unnatural, but it's clearly not what most people use.

Something arising from nature, people evolved naturally (if one is an atheist anyway) did they not? so how can a product of nature not behave naturally? How can the natural produce the unnatural? where do unnatural things come from? isn't evolution a natural process?

 

[watsup]

You misunderstand me Elvira, I'm playing devil's advocate here, showing the atheists where there logic unavoidably leads.

It doesn’t.

 

[watsup]

Something arising from nature, people evolved naturally (if one is an atheist anyway) did they not? so how can a product of nature not behave naturally? How can the natural produce the unnatural? where do unnatural things come from? isn't evolution a natural process?

A bicycle has tires.
A car has tires.
Ergo a bicycle is a car.
Some Sherlock “logic”.

 

[Dragonfly]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, showing the atheists where there logic unavoidably leads.

Do tell.

Where does it lead?

 

[OrphanSlug]

Another awful thread, religion does not own nor did it even invent the concepts of ethics, values, moral code, social order, or law.

Every single one of those concepts predates every single piece of text that became something for any of the Abrahamic Religions.

Because of, there is no reason to appeal to theocracy... not a single reason at all.

 

[watsup]

Something arising from nature, people evolved naturally (if one is an atheist anyway) did they not? so how can a product of nature not behave naturally? How can the natural produce the unnatural? where do unnatural things come from? isn't evolution a natural process?

Because you are not using the correct definition of “nature”. I suppose that debate is easy when you just make up your own definitions instead of using standard approved ones.