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Why don't you want your government to rule religiously if religious people share your values? (1 Viewer)

Do you oppose religious rule in your country because of difference in values

  • I oppose religious rule in my country, though the values of the society would remain the same

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • I oppose religious rule in my country because religious and irreligious people have different values

    Votes: 3 42.9%
  • I want some form of religious ruling in my country on government level

    Votes: 2 28.6%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Valery

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I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

Basic values, such as do not lie, murder, etc. Sure that comes from instinct and tends to not vary from society to society (at least in prosperous societies)

Other values such as church attendance, blue laws, how society should regard marriage, acceptable family types, social roles, sexual expression (this is different from orientation, don't get the two concepts confused), etc. That stuff is socially learned and greatly varies from society to society.

Atheists tend to want to not be forced into stuff from category 2.
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

These aren’t religious values. They’re human values co-opted by religion for control in other areas not related to the functioning of a healthy society.

Freedom from other folks’ god is vital to a happy life.
 
America is not a religious theocracy and it never was. Claiming that we're all born with our values is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. A baby knows about lying, stealing, paying tithe, etc?

Christians can't even agree with themselves what their values are. There are HUNDREDS of Christian denominations all with wildly varying interpretations of any given topic. There is no way to make a religious system that everybody will accept.

If you so earnestly believe any religious government would be acceptable then you can self deport and go live under sharia law.
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

One of the great dangers in “religious rule” is the belief that the people in charge are acting on behalf of God, so you dare not question or oppose them.
 
(laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

So to hell with all the Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, .....

You know, like about half of the entire planet's population. Just a few billion people.
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?
Take abortion for instance. That is a religious value. So is homosexuality and indulging in drug use. Those things should not be made illegal because of your religious beliefs. Keep religion out of government
 
What I don't understand about Christians is, one, Jesus said: "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36) Then this: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matthew 6:33). Putting those together would mean the last thing Christians should be lusting after is earthly political power, but most Christian feel it's their whole raison d'être.

Remember when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world?

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

(Luke 4:5-8)

Notice one thing. Jesus never disputed that they did indeed belong to Satan.
 
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I want some form of religious ruling in my country on government level
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up.
I don't think it's quite that simple. We all have natural instincts which feed in to societal morals an principles, but we're not all exactly the same in that. We then learn from experience and teaching from others as we grow up, which again can lead to different outcomes due to different circumstances of upbringing. So, where there are certainly a set of commonly agreed principles, there can be a lo of difference of opinions on key details and where different principles conflict or needs to be balanced against each other for practical reasons. That why we need any laws in the first place after all.

If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?
Because religious rules and laws go much further and in to much more detail than those common principles. They're created and interpreted by human beings and so are just as subject to the flaws of temporal laws but also tend not to allow for democratic agreement to take account of those flaws. That process is exactly why most modern societies moved on from theocracy and purely religious-based laws, developing those to better suit the times, places and people to which they currently apply.

You also brush over one major problem. It's all very well for you to talk about "any Abrahamic religion" but the followers and leaders of those religions have never been able agree on what the correct interpretation and application of those laws should be, even within individual religions and sects, let alone across the whole. You can't implement religious laws until you agree exactly what those religious laws should be.
 
I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

I oppose religious rule for many reasons none of which are listed.

First of all, nobody is born with any values. Some people may have different natures. But in principal everybody can be shaped anyway you want to. This is done in school and by your parents at home. And in teh case of religion this is also done by whichever religion you may associate yourself with.

Secondly if there is religious rule, which one to follow. There is many different religions and within all these religions there is also many different 'flavors'. And when you implement religious rule knowing that this will only make a very small fraction of the population happy, than obviously this should not be done.

Joey
 
Take abortion for instance. That is a religious value. So is homosexuality and indulging in drug use. Those things should not be made illegal because of your religious beliefs. Keep religion out of government

You go too far here, in my opinion, in claiming that opposing abortion on demand is a "religious value." There are atheists who oppose this and have posted in the last week about this. I don't know whether those who are "non-religious" oppose homosexuality, but surely there are some and simply because they think that this is "unnatural." And there are common-sense reasons to oppose recreational drug use, as I'm sure you're already aware.
 
For the world we live in, with such great diversity, secular laws are best...that allows the diverse the most freedom they long for...
 
One of the great dangers in “religious rule” is the belief that the people in charge are acting on behalf of God, so you dare not question or oppose them.

That, of course, leads to laws that are unreasonable and restrictive when it comes to my personal liberty. People who talk about religious freedom suddenly want to restrict my freedom because of their religious beliefs. We saw that in the temperance movement and prohibition. We saw how that effected gays and lesbians. We saw how that effected people who believed in other that the one in power's god.
 
Why don't you want your government to rule religiously if religious people share your values?

Because it has never worked well in the past in the west, or anywhere else in the world (a contemporary example is the Islamic Republic of Iran- not sure we should give up western secular democracy and use their model as a guide).

Why don't we ask this question of the founding fathers of this country, who had experienced nations who had worked that way for a long time, and were eager to get away from it when they set up this country?

"It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. "
-James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries...Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"
-James Madison


"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison

"Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America...All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish (Muslim), appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Payne

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory..., more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter.”
― Thomas Paine

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson

"They [the Christian clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn... eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish (Muslim), appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine
 
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I hear most here think our values are something we are more or less born with and of which we learn more through general knowledge as we grow up. If you, as an atheist/agnostic don't have values any different from religious people, why would you have an issue with the government ruling by religious laws (laws of any Abrahamic religion — yes, Christians have laws or rules if you like)?

Most Atheists don't try to force their opinions of reality on to the general population. The biggest difference I've noticed between Atheists and religious people is the fact that very few Atheists would start a conversation with complete strangers by saying "Have an un-blessed day"
 
For the world we live in, with such great diversity, secular laws are best...that allows the diverse the most freedom they long for...
And you think it's best to just give people whatever satan suggests them?
 
Most Atheists don't try to force their opinions of reality on to the general population. The biggest difference I've noticed between Atheists and religious people is the fact that very few Atheists would start a conversation with complete strangers by saying "Have an un-blessed day"

You do realize it is possible for a human to bless another human...even the Bible takes note of that fact...we see it happening all the time with those who have more giving to those who have less...

"Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater." Hebrews 7:7
 
You do realize it is possible for a human to bless another human...even the Bible takes note of that fact...we see it happening all the time with those who have more giving to those who have less...

"Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater." Hebrews 7:7

Also when playing tag, it is possible for one human to tag another and make them “it”.
 
Most Atheists don't try to force their opinions of reality on to the general population. The biggest difference I've noticed between Atheists and religious people is the fact that very few Atheists would start a conversation with complete strangers by saying "Have an un-blessed day"

I agree, and btw, via con nothing.
 
And you think it's best to just give people whatever satan suggests them?

I have no control over others nor do I want to, any more than I want them to control me...as long as we're both free to do what we believe to be right and at the same time, not infringing on another's rights...yes...
 

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