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Why does the world allow ISRAEL to "GET AWAY WITH IT" ??

clone

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so your saying its okay for Israel to completely destroy Lebanons infrastructure, as well as kill thousands of innocents and wound even more?

perhaps its you who should be in jail.
 

Kelzie

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clone said:
so your saying its okay for Israel to completely destroy Lebanons infrastructure, as well as kill thousands of innocents and wound even more?

perhaps its you who should be in jail.

Well I'm sure if it was that horrible, Hezbollah would release their two prisoners, right? I mean, that's the reason this all started after all. Why aren't you blaming them?
 

blastula

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clone said:
so your saying its okay for Israel to completely destroy Lebanons infrastructure, as well as kill thousands of innocents and wound even more?

If you and your family are relentlessly attacked by the murderous night stalker and a gang of his supporters, do you need my permission to defend yourself and your family even if it means to kill whoever that are willing to provide cover to protect the murderers?

Hezbollah started the whole conflict by invading Israel then kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers. So are you saying its okay to kill Israeli soldiers unprovoked, and indescriminately rained down lethal weapons on Israeli cities for the sole pupose of targeting innocent civilian lives? In your book killing Israeli people means nothing?

If you want to blame the destruction of Lebanon, why don't you blame it on the Lebanonese government and the Lebanese people if you are so unwilling to point your finger at Hezbollah? Remember, when Israel left Lebanon in 2000, the Lebanon government was supposed to disarm Hezbollah. The government cannot claim they lacked the military power to disarm Hezbollah when they chose not to seek international help. But, instead they quietly observed and allowed Hezbollah to amass large quantities of lethal weapons from Iran thru Syria, which are specifically to be used to destroy Israel.

And what did the so-called "innocent" civilians of Lebanon do all these years? They didn't hiss a sound of protest against Hezbollah's build-up of lethal weapons in their homes and their neighborhoods, do they? If they truly care about their infrastructures and their children, shouldn't they be concerned and raised alarm when Hezbollah hide weapons amidst them with or without their permission?

Don't you know Muslim people are very vocal and effective in drawing world attention if they want to voice their opinion or anger? Yea, even on such minor issues like a cartoon is enough to provoke them to instigate wanton destruction of public properties or physical harm to innocent people through riots and protests. The Lebanese people know all along the will of Hezbollah is the same will of Iran and the Islamic terrorist organizations. And their will is a perverse will to destroy Israel from the face of the earth as they have so loudly proclaimed.

Israel, however, had never proclaimed for the destruction of Palestinian people. Instead they want Palestinians to have their own state which they rejected in 1948.

Israel have no choice when being attacked without provocation. Israel have to targets the lethal weapons of Hezbollah which by Hezbollah design happened to be hidden amidst civilian buildings and mobilized throughout the infrastrutures. Israel have done all their best to warn the civilians of impending attacks. No country in this world is known to anounce to their enemies of their tactical move. Only Israel do, because they care about civilian lives.

All Israel want in this conflict is for Hezbollah to surrender all their weapons and release the kdnapped soldiers. I believe Israel will cease fire immediately without being asked if Hezbollah would lay down their arms and surrender all their weapons. How is Israel to blame when all they ever want is to defend for their own existence? Don't you demand the same if your neighbor has threatened to destroy all your family and is attacking you and your family with arsenal of lethal weapons from their backyard?

perhaps its you who should be in jail

You argued like a little child.

Yea, it's not surprising to me that a terrorist sympathizer would think like the terrorist. A twisted mind with the same twisted frequency. Normal people can't reason with them.
 
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Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Kelzie
Well I'm sure if it was that horrible, Hezbollah would release their two prisoners, right? I mean, that's the reason this all started after all. Why aren't you blaming them?
No, that's not how this started! It started with an Israeli missle attack on a van that killed 11 Palistinian civilians back on July 14. That was the first shot in this current conflict.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Billo_Really said:
No, that's not how this started! It started with an Israeli missle attack on a van that killed 11 Palistinian civilians back on July 14. That was the first shot in this current conflict.

No Hamas continued firing missiles into Israel within less than a month of their pullout.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
No Hamas continued firing missiles into Israel within less than a month of their pullout.
Prior to July 14?
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Billo_Really said:
Prior to July 14?

Way before:

In the months since the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza last summer, Palestinian militants have fired hundreds of rockets at the Jewish state.
Most have been crudely made, with no guidance system and a range of no more than about 6 miles (10 kilometers).
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/05/israel.soldier/index.html

Rocket Attacks Don't Dent Sharon By Martin Sieff Dec 29, 2005 WASHINGTON, The latest wave of Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel suggest an ambitious tactical political agenda on the part of the attackers. With Israel deep in the throes of probably its most crucial general election in almost 29 years, terrorist groups are trying to directly influence the political process.
The attacks certainly fulfill the warning of Israeli security chiefs that hostile Islamist groups would seek to follow up the unilateral Israeli withdrawal Gaza earlier this year with a new wave of terror attacks. And certainly so far, the guerrillas still do not appear to be anywhere near reclaiming the capability they enjoyed for years in the Second Intifada of massacring dozens of Israeli civilians, including women and children, almost per week in suicide bomb attacks.
The attacks by Hezbollah from the north are clearly backed by the new hard-line regime in Iran where the new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has called for Israel to be wiped off the map and questioned the historical accuracy of the Holocaust. As tensions mount between Israel and an Iran rapidly driving to acquire a formidable nuclear strike capability, Iran is clearly showing no hesitation in playing the Hezbollah card.
And in May 2005, this report from Isracast reminds us that Hezbollah showered northern Israel with rockets for three days in September 2004. This came as Ariel Sharon considered the Gaza withdrawal, and led Sharon to forswear a new war in Lebanon at that time -- when Rafik Hariri's assassination forced the Syrians to withdraw from Lebanon themselves:
Along the Lebanese frontier, Hezbollah launched a series of cross border shellings of Israeli civilian and military targets. There were no Israeli casualties but some damage. The IDF responded with limited air strikes and tank fire. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says Israel has no intention of being drawn into a further escalation by the pro-Iranian Hezbollah. Hezbollah guerillas in south Lebanon shelled Israel for further three days running. Although Israeli aircraft and tanks fired back, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Israel has no interest in being drawn into a further escalation.
* Sept.11th - Hezbollah fires Katyusha rocket at Western Galilee town of Shelomi - the rocket slams into the industrial zone causing damage but no casualties because the area was abandoned due to Independence Day.
* Sept.12th - Hezbollah fires 2 rockets from south Lebanon at IDF position in Mount Dov area (Shaaba farms) of Syria. No Casualties or damage. Israeli forces return fire at Hezbollah positions in the area.
* Sept.13th - Hezbollah fires 13 mortar bombs at IDF positions in Mount Dov, IDF fires back and hits 3 Hezbollah positions.

http://tailrank.com/posts/562949953756890/Rocket_Attacks_Don't_Dent_Sharon
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Way before:
Actually, I was a little off on the date. It was June 9th. Not to say that Hamas hadn't done anything prior to that. Because if they did, I condemn that as well. It's strange though that they would start something after Abbas had gotten them to admit, in principle, to Israels right to exist.

Terrorism on Both Sides
By Ivan Eland July 19, 2006



Israel regularly dispenses “collective punishment”—as it is now in Lebanon and Gaza—that should be labeled “terrorism,” but isn’t.

Even if Israel is given the benefit of the doubt for an explosion in Gaza on June 9 that killed a family of seven (witnesses blame Israeli artillery but Israel denies the causing it), Israel clearly killed 11 Palestinians, including nine civilians, in Gaza on June 13 using a missile strike on a van.

In the latter case, the Israelis would argue that they were going after “terrorists” in the van and that the civilians just happened to be in the way. But Hamas could claim that its later June 25 killing of two Israeli soldiers and capturing another was an attack on legitimate targets in retaliation for the first two Israeli actions.

So the capture of the Israeli soldier by Hamas, on which the G-8 leaders and world press have focused, was not the beginning of the chain of events that have led to the current war. If hitting military targets is not terrorism, then Israel, not Hamas—at least in this episode—was also the first to use terror tactics.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/071806a.html
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Billo_Really said:
Actually, I was a little off on the date. It was June 9th. Not to say that Hamas hadn't done anything prior to that. Because if they did, I condemn that as well. It's strange though that they would start something after Abbas had gotten them to admit, in principle, to Israels right to exist.

It's not strange at all if you read the Hezbollah manifesto and Hamas charter:

Hezbollah manifesto:


We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile. Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

Hamas charter

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
 

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blastula said:
Hezbollah started the whole conflict by invading Israel then kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers. So are you saying its okay to kill Israeli soldiers unprovoked, and indescriminately rained down lethal weapons on Israeli cities for the sole pupose of targeting innocent civilian lives? In your book killing Israeli people means nothing?

i can turn that right around back at you, 'so in your book the killing of lebanesse people means nothing?'

blastula said:
If you want to blame the destruction of Lebanon, why don't you blame it on the Lebanonese government and the Lebanese people if you are so unwilling to point your finger at Hezbollah? Remember, when Israel left Lebanon in 2000, the Lebanon government was supposed to disarm Hezbollah. The government cannot claim they lacked the military power to disarm Hezbollah when they chose not to seek international help. But, instead they quietly observed and allowed Hezbollah to amass large quantities of lethal weapons from Iran thru Syria, which are specifically to be used to destroy Israel.

did i even for a second ever imply that any Hezbollah attacks on Israel were okay? Hezbollah is a rogue organization, Israel is a country. Attacks on Israel are bad, yes, and the loss of israeli life should be mourned and revenged, but in an equal manner. Israel has shown no mercy to thousands of children in lebanon, over TWO soldiers! TWO lives exchanged for THOUSANDS more! Hezbollah is too arrogant to hand over the soldiers, i agree, it is their fault this conflict started, but "this conflict" should never have gotten as large as it is now. If Israel is so caring and merciful towards innocents, why attack a UN outpost? why destroy buildings and schools and hospitals? Why not just send ground troops in to 'disarm Hezbollah'? If Hezbollah even has any weapons 'hidden in the infrastructure'...yea right...and Saddam still has WMD right?

blastula said:
And what did the so-called "innocent" civilians of Lebanon do all these years? They didn't hiss a sound of protest against Hezbollah's build-up of lethal weapons in their homes and their neighborhoods, do they? If they truly care about their infrastructures and their children, shouldn't they be concerned and raised alarm when Hezbollah hide weapons amidst them with or without their permission?

i can see you've grown up in a rich area. Hezbollah provides schools, hospitals, and orphanages; hezbollah takes in the homeless and cares for them, something no one else in the world seems to care to do anymore. As soon as you can prove that there really are any weapons 'hidden in the infrastructure' is when you can actually use that argument.


blastula said:
Don't you know Muslim people are very vocal and effective in drawing world attention if they want to voice their opinion or anger? Yea, even on such minor issues like a cartoon is enough to provoke them to instigate wanton destruction of public properties or physical harm to innocent people through riots and protests. The Lebanese people know all along the will of Hezbollah is the same will of Iran and the Islamic terrorist organizations. And their will is a perverse will to destroy Israel from the face of the earth as they have so loudly proclaimed.

Gee i wonder where they got that idea? Maybe it was the thousands of people forced to flee their own lands or die, maybe it was the massacres of thousands of Palestinians for the sake of land. Lets not forget Sabra and Shatila, Kafr Qasim, Karantina, or the Shelling of Qana so quickly.

blastula said:
Israel, however, had never proclaimed for the destruction of Palestinian people. Instead they want Palestinians to have their own state which they rejected in 1948.

Not proclaiming it, and not doing it are totally different. Israel has always been one to punish the people. Yes Hamas is wrong by attacking innocents, yes Hezbollah is also wrong for killing innnocents, but Israel should be more civilized. Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world today. Do some REAL reconnaissance, find out where Hezbollah really is, and then send in ground troops to disarm them. Im sure you'll tell me something like 'its not that simple' or such, but it is.


blastula said:
Israel have no choice when being attacked without provocation. Israel have to targets the lethal weapons of Hezbollah which by Hezbollah design happened to be hidden amidst civilian buildings and mobilized throughout the infrastrutures. Israel have done all their best to warn the civilians of impending attacks. No country in this world is known to anounce to their enemies of their tactical move. Only Israel do, because they care about civilian lives.

Show me what weapons are hidden in the infrastructure. Informing people of their death does not count as caring - even the Nazis told their victims of their coming death.


blastula said:
All Israel want in this conflict is for Hezbollah to surrender all their weapons and release the kdnapped soldiers. I believe Israel will cease fire immediately without being asked if Hezbollah would lay down their arms and surrender all their weapons. How is Israel to blame when all they ever want is to defend for their own existence? Don't you demand the same if your neighbor has threatened to destroy all your family and is attacking you and your family with arsenal of lethal weapons from their backyard?

If a neighbor threatened to destroy me with an aresenal in their backyard, i would not utterly destroy their home, family, and any close relatives. Thats what Israel is really doing. read some unbiased news sometime, maybe youll get the picture.


blastula said:
You argued like a little child.

yeah, and you argued like a true brainwashed drone that cant think for himself.

blastula said:
Yea, it's not surprising to me that a terrorist sympathizer would think like the terrorist. A twisted mind with the same twisted frequency. Normal people can't reason with them.

Again, i can turn this back on you. Israel causes terror when it bombs the homes innocent lebanesse children. Israel causes terror when it storms its tanks into Palestinian homes and rapes their women. oh my god - your a terrorist sympathizer!
 

Kelzie

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blastula said:
You argued like a little child.

clone said:
yeah, and you argued like a true brainwashed drone that cant think for himself.

Let's have none of this please.
 

blastula

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Clone said:
i can turn that right around back at you, 'so in your book the killing of lebanesse people means nothing?'

The killing of Lebanese people means something. If you want to live by the sword, then you should expect to die by the sword.

did i even for a second ever imply that any Hezbollah attacks on Israel were okay? Hezbollah is a rogue organization, Israel is a country. Attacks on Israel are bad, yes, and the loss of israeli life should be mourned and revenged, but in an equal manner. Israel has shown no mercy to thousands of children in lebanon, over TWO soldiers! TWO lives exchanged for THOUSANDS more! Hezbollah is too arrogant to hand over the soldiers, i agree, it is their fault this conflict started, but "this conflict" should never have gotten as large as it is now. If Israel is so caring and merciful towards innocents, why attack a UN outpost? why destroy buildings and schools and hospitals? Why not just send ground troops in to 'disarm Hezbollah'? If Hezbollah even has any weapons 'hidden in the infrastructure'...yea right...and Saddam still has WMD right?

Yes, your eerie silence on Hezbollah tactics and your relentless condemnation of Israel not only imply that Hezbollah attacks on Israel were of no wrong, but also provided a by proxy support that emboldened Hezbollah and other Islamic Jihad groups.

I don’t think one should advocate revenge. Revenge only begets more violence and fueled the generations into an endless cycle of hatred, bloodshed, and more unending revenge. Perhaps revenge is a trait of Islamic culture, you tell me, no?

What Israel is doing is no revenge. It is self-defend. They have to take out Hezbollah’s arsenal of lethal weapons one way or another in order to ensure the safety of their people, and for their nation’s self-preservation. If Israel really wanted revenge, they would have flattened the whole Lebanon in 3 days.

Hezbollah’s tactic to hide their weapons and fight in civilian buildings and near UN outpost are well established fact. Heck, didn’t UN soldiers looked the other way when Hezbollah terrorists disguised themselves as UN personnel to attack Israel? What's to say UN didn’t look the other way to let the terrorists to use the UN outpost to attack Israel? If the aerial photo of Hezbollah firing their rockets from civilian buildings did not convinced you, nothing will.

How do you send ground troops to disarm Hezbollah when Hezbollah use dirty tricks and used civilian human shields to fight their war? You can’t tell civilians from Hezbollah. They are one and the same thing, appearing and disappearing among the civilians as they become civilians.

If you’re an Israeli soldier, and you go down the Lebanese village and see a civilian family watching down at you from a balcony like a family of a father, a mother, and a baby in their arms. Innocent looking enough. But as soon as you turned your back to them, the father suddenly turned into a terrorist, and whipped out an automatic assault rifles to gun you down. If you die, it’s just a boring war statistics to the world and terrorist sympathizers like you. If you managed to kill the family, the world and terrorist sympathizers like you would go into a hissy fit and condemned Israel for killing innocent civilians. It’s a no win situation for Israel and win-win situation for the terrorists because of your support and “understanding”.

Saddam Hussein tortured and massacred his own people including genocide of a whole village of men, women, and children. Where is the outcry from the world and the Muslim communities at large? And where was your outcry?

i can see you've grown up in a rich area. Hezbollah provides schools, hospitals, and orphanages; hezbollah takes in the homeless and cares for them, something no one else in the world seems to care to do anymore. As soon as you can prove that there really are any weapons 'hidden in the infrastructure' is when you can actually use that argument.

Your rich and poor argument is lame excuse for Hezbollah. If Hezbollah really cared for their people, they should not attack Israel unprovoked in the first place. If they want to attack, at least build some underground bunkers to protect them.

Why waste my time to prove anything when the proof is there and simply ignored? You are so biased that you will accuse Israel of targeting civilians without any proof on your part.

Gee i wonder where they got that idea? Maybe it was the thousands of people forced to flee their own lands or die, maybe it was the massacres of thousands of Palestinians for the sake of land. Lets not forget Sabra and Shatila, Kafr Qasim, Karantina, or the Shelling of Qana so quickly.

And let’s not forget that every incident was instigated and provoked by the Islamic extremists with full support of the Palestinian people. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. No whine, no cry, please.

Not proclaiming it, and not doing it are totally different. Israel has always been one to punish the people. Yes Hamas is wrong by attacking innocents, yes Hezbollah is also wrong for killing innnocents, but Israel should be more civilized. Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world today. Do some REAL reconnaissance, find out where Hezbollah really is, and then send in ground troops to disarm them. Im sure you'll tell me something like 'its not that simple' or such, but it is.

You see the same event that I see, but your take is warped. You can’t prove that Israel is doing it. Israel has always been the one to be forced to defend for themselves. If Hamas is wrong, it’s wrong, period. If Hezbollah is wrong, it’s wrong. Period. Don’t try to cover their wrongs with your excuses. Why not use your collective energy and power to persuade Hamas and Hezbollah to cease and desist in their attacks, and to surrender all their arms and weapons, so that no more attack on Israel is guaranteed?

Show me what weapons are hidden in the infrastructure. Informing people of their death does not count as caring - even the Nazis told their victims of their coming death.

The evidence are there. You just refused to acknowledge the truth. If you insist there are no weapons hidden in infrastructure, why don’t you show me evidence that Hezbollah’s weapons are out in the open in the battle field?

The Nazi gathered their innocent victims at gun point and marched them into the gas chamber telling them to take everything off to take a shower. Israel air dropped leaflets and broadcast over the radio to tell them to leave their homes for their safety. No comparison.

If a neighbor threatened to destroy me with an aresenal in their backyard, i would not utterly destroy their home, family, and any close relatives. Thats what Israel is really doing. read some unbiased news sometime, maybe youll get the picture.

Yea right, you would allow them to keep their arsenal of weapons for future use, indeed.

yeah, and you argued like a true brainwashed drone that cant think for himself.

I apologize for my previous comment. I just get caught up when your previous statement that implied I was a criminal.

Again, i can turn this back on you. Israel causes terror when it bombs the homes innocent lebanesse children. Israel causes terror when it storms its tanks into Palestinian homes and rapes their women. oh my god - your a terrorist sympathizer!

No you can’t. Israel is targeting Hezbollah and their weapons to defend their country from relentless rocket attacks targeting specifically on civilians. Israel could not have known there were civilians and children in the building. Israel regretted that civilians and children were killed due to mistakes.
 

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heheheh

all this embryology :)

The blastula just knocked the clone's dick in the dirt.
 

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blastula said:
The killing of Lebanese people means something. If you want to live by the sword, then you should expect to die by the sword.

So you're implying that all lebanesse people are terrorists? a bit of a stereotype, no?

blastula said:
Perhaps revenge is a trait of Islamic culture, you tell me, no?

if that was a bash at Islam, let me remind you that the Crusades were all about exacting revenge on the infidels.

blastula said:
What Israel is doing is no revenge. It is self-defend. They have to take out Hezbollah’s arsenal of lethal weapons one way or another in order to ensure the safety of their people, and for their nation’s self-preservation. If Israel really wanted revenge, they would have flattened the whole Lebanon in 3 days.

Yes im sure school girls and infants are a major threat to Israel.


blastula said:
Your rich and poor argument is lame excuse for Hezbollah. If Hezbollah really cared for their people, they should not attack Israel unprovoked in the first place. If they want to attack, at least build some underground bunkers to protect them.

if hezbollah had the resources to build bomb shelters they wouldnt be using IED's and home made bombs.


blastula said:
Why waste my time to prove anything when the proof is there and simply ignored? You are so biased that you will accuse Israel of targeting civilians without any proof on your part.

and you are so biased to believe that all lebanesse people are actually disguised terrorists.

blastula said:
And let’s not forget that every incident was instigated and provoked by the Islamic extremists with full support of the Palestinian people. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. No whine, no cry, please.

Pearl Harbor was instigated. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were instigated. One could go so far as to say that even the Nazi death camps were 'instigated'. that doesnt make it okay.

blastula said:
You see the same event that I see, but your take is warped. You can’t prove that Israel is doing it. Israel has always been the one to be forced to defend for themselves. If Hamas is wrong, it’s wrong, period. If Hezbollah is wrong, it’s wrong. Period. Don’t try to cover their wrongs with your excuses. Why not use your collective energy and power to persuade Hamas and Hezbollah to cease and desist in their attacks, and to surrender all their arms and weapons, so that no more attack on Israel is guaranteed?

from my perspective, your the one taking it warped, Hamas and Hezbollah are defending themselves, and Israel is the one that is 'wrong - period'. You are doing the exact same thing i am. "lets not forget that every incident was instigated" - that is an excuse.

And you speak as if i could just walk up to Hamas headquarters and ask them to stop blowing stuff up.

blastula said:
The evidence are there. You just refused to acknowledge the truth. If you insist there are no weapons hidden in infrastructure, why don’t you show me evidence that Hezbollah’s weapons are out in the open in the battle field?

why dont you show me proof that there really are any 'hidden weapons'. Last time we took someones word for it an entire country turned to chaos, and Bush and his gang got real rich.

blastula said:
I apologize for my previous comment. I just get caught up when your previous statement that implied I was a criminal.

as do i. the great thing about this forum is that people can debate while still being civilized.


blastula said:
No you can’t. Israel is targeting Hezbollah and their weapons to defend their country from relentless rocket attacks targeting specifically on civilians. Israel could not have known there were civilians and children in the building. Israel regretted that civilians and children were killed due to mistakes.


the bottom line is, its all perspective. In your eyes Israel is defending itself against ruthless terrorists, and in mine Hezbollah is defending itself from the onslaught of the Jews. chances are this debate will end in stalemate.
 

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Clone said:
So you're implying that all lebanesse people are terrorists? a bit of a stereotype, no?

I don't imply that all Lebanese people are terrorists. But, if they all stood by and did nothing to prevent Hezbollah from amassing missile weapons from Iran and allowed Hezbollah and their weapons in their midst to function for the sole purpose of destroying Israel, then they are just as guilty as the terrorists. Don't you agree that if you just stand by and observed a murderer planned and then carried out a murder, you will be just as guilty as the murderer if you did nothing to stop it?

if that was a bash at Islam, let me remind you that the Crusades were all about exacting revenge on the infidels.

That was not meant to be a bash at Islam. I believe there are good people of Islamic faith. You brought up the issue of revenge and condone it. I was just wondering out loud based on my personal observation of world events. I am not a Christian and I am not a Jew. Neither do I have any connection to the Middle East. I am just an impartial observer of world event. The Crusaders were things of ancient past. Are you and the Islamic Jihadists still live in ancient past?

Yes im sure school girls and infants are a major threat to Israel.

I am sure you have heard of Iran sending their children to die in the front line during the Iran and Iraq war. I am sure also you have heard of Islamic extremists strapping bombs on their children in order to kill their enemies, no?

if hezbollah had the resources to build bomb shelters they wouldnt be using IED's and home made bombs.

They are not home made bombs. They are missiles courtesy from Iran. The thousands of missiles and weapons should be traded for resources to build economic infrastructures, homes, and livelihood for the Lebanese people, don't you think?

and you are so biased to believe that all lebanesse people are actually disguised terrorists.

I don't think all Lebanese people are. But, how many are not, do you know?

Pearl Harbor was instigated. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were instigated. One could go so far as to say that even the Nazi death camps were 'instigated'. that doesnt make it okay.

There is no point to appeal to irrationality. Just research the history of Middle East from the first world war to modern period, and you tell me whether the vast majority of aggressions against the Jews were instigated or not.

from my perspective, your the one taking it warped, Hamas and Hezbollah are defending themselves, and Israel is the one that is 'wrong - period'. You are doing the exact same thing i am. "lets not forget that every incident was instigated" - that is an excuse.

You can try to deny who provoked and instigated the violence first but you can't hide the fact. If it's just perspectives then why your perspective should triumph over my perspective? If they are both defending themselves, then let them fight if they want to fight. Why put world pressure against Israel so that Israel had to watch the clock and made split second decisions in their strikes that caused more civilian casualties? Why condemn Israel for defending themselves?


And you speak as if i could just walk up to Hamas headquarters and ask them to stop blowing stuff up.

Apparently, your collective voices and demonstrations of your like mind here, in the Middle East, and worldwide do fuel very effective support for Hezbollah and Hamas and restrict what Israel can or cannot do to defend their country. The collective support for Hezbollah against Israel in the Islamic communities, especially the Shite in Iraq and Iran is a cause for concern that may lead to WWIII.

why dont you show me proof that there really are any 'hidden weapons'. Last time we took someones word for it an entire country turned to chaos, and Bush and his gang got real rich.

If you want to play the pretend game, then count me out. Just show me your proof that the weapons are out in the open in the battlefield and not in civilian neighborhood, that would be enough.

the bottom line is, its all perspective. In your eyes Israel is defending itself against ruthless terrorists, and in mine Hezbollah is defending itself from the onslaught of the Jews. chances are this debate will end in stalemate.

That's not the bottom line. Between the opposing perspectives there is a fact. If it's in the eyes of the beholders, then why whine and cry? Why not just let them fight?

Personally, I think Nasrallah and most mideast people are very intelligent and hardworking folks. But they are just misguided into the wrong path of endless cycle of bloodshed due to hatred and revenge. I just wish they would lay down their arms, cleanse themselves and rid of their deep rooted hatred, and start all over embracing peace.
 

Voidwar

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clone said:
chances are this debate will end in stalemate.

No no no. You are naive. It ends in a gunfight.
 

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blastula said:
If you and your family are relentlessly attacked by the murderous night stalker and a gang of his supporters, do you need my permission to defend yourself and your family even if it means to kill whoever that are willing to provide cover to protect the murderers?

Hezbollah started the whole conflict by invading Israel then kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers. So are you saying its okay to kill Israeli soldiers unprovoked, and indescriminately rained down lethal weapons on Israeli cities for the sole pupose of targeting innocent civilian lives? In your book killing Israeli people means nothing?

If you want to blame the destruction of Lebanon, why don't you blame it on the Lebanonese government and the Lebanese people if you are so unwilling to point your finger at Hezbollah? Remember, when Israel left Lebanon in 2000, the Lebanon government was supposed to disarm Hezbollah. The government cannot claim they lacked the military power to disarm Hezbollah when they chose not to seek international help. But, instead they quietly observed and allowed Hezbollah to amass large quantities of lethal weapons from Iran thru Syria, which are specifically to be used to destroy Israel.

And what did the so-called "innocent" civilians of Lebanon do all these years? They didn't hiss a sound of protest against Hezbollah's build-up of lethal weapons in their homes and their neighborhoods, do they? If they truly care about their infrastructures and their children, shouldn't they be concerned and raised alarm when Hezbollah hide weapons amidst them with or without their permission?

Don't you know Muslim people are very vocal and effective in drawing world attention if they want to voice their opinion or anger? Yea, even on such minor issues like a cartoon is enough to provoke them to instigate wanton destruction of public properties or physical harm to innocent people through riots and protests. The Lebanese people know all along the will of Hezbollah is the same will of Iran and the Islamic terrorist organizations. And their will is a perverse will to destroy Israel from the face of the earth as they have so loudly proclaimed.

Israel, however, had never proclaimed for the destruction of Palestinian people. Instead they want Palestinians to have their own state which they rejected in 1948.

Israel have no choice when being attacked without provocation. Israel have to targets the lethal weapons of Hezbollah which by Hezbollah design happened to be hidden amidst civilian buildings and mobilized throughout the infrastrutures. Israel have done all their best to warn the civilians of impending attacks. No country in this world is known to anounce to their enemies of their tactical move. Only Israel do, because they care about civilian lives.

Lets get a few things straight first. You're trying to blame the Lebanese for their country being blown up. Do I need to remind you that the Syrian army was in Lebanon till a year ago? That's how Hezbollah got their arms in. I'll say it again , SYRIAN ARMY OCCUPYING LEBANON. Now that thats, clear lets discuss the realistic possiblity of the Lebanese government disarming Hezbollah. There already was an international mandate made by the UN to disarm Hezbollah. So its already out there in the international field, and if the Lebanese government pressed it too much, in the fragile democracy that they have, civil war could easily have erupted.

Or we can talk about how a human being responds when their homes are blowned up and their country attacked. Is it beyond comprehension to understand why the Lebanese now support Hezbollah more than before. Who's defending them, who's blowing them up. This is what's going through their minds.

I'm sure you already know, only one part of Hezbollah is military. The other provided aid to the Lebanese. Maybe you can therefore appreciate why they accepted Hezbollah.

I think I'll stick to blaming Hezbollah.
 

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blastula said:
There is no point to appeal to irrationality. Just research the history of Middle East from the first world war to modern period, and you tell me whether the vast majority of aggressions against the Jews were instigated or not.

hows this (courtesy of Global Policy Forum - http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm):

'Israel, Palestine and the Occupied Territories
The question of Palestine and Israel has commanded the attention of the UN since the organization was founded. The UN General Assembly voted the original partition of the land in November 1947 and the UN deployed its first peacekeeping operation to monitor the ceasefire lines after the war of 1948. This site introduces readers to the key issues, with a special focus on UN involvement in the conflict.

For many years, successive Israeli governments refused to consider a Palestinian state, while most Arabs denied the legitimacy of Israel. In the 1970s both sides began to recognize the need for compromise. The Palestinians proposed a separate state, claiming as their homeland the territories outside the 1948 ceasefire lines, territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war. This idea found widespread support in the international community, and Israel was called on to withdraw from this land, as affirmed in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

Israel's 1967 occupation of other territories complicated the matter. Israel seized Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and Syria's Golan Heights and set up settlements in both. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and maintained a long-term occupation in the southern part of the country. These wars and occupations were related to the Palestine question and deepened the political crisis surrounding it. Even after Israel eventually withdrew from Egypt and Lebanon, the Palestine (and Golan) occupations continued. Israel's settlement-building, and its construction of a massive border-wall that annexed large swaths of Palestinian territory, has made resolution of the conflict far more difficult.

Since resolutions 242 and 338, the Security Council has taken no significant steps to end the Israel-Palestine conflict. United States influence has generally kept the issue off the Council's agenda. When Council members have introduced resolutions, responding to periodic crises, the US has repeatedly used its veto on Israel's behalf. The General Assembly has taken a more active and creative role in the conflict, yet its resolutions are non-binding and have largely symbolic weight. Both bodies would have been more effective if governments had been willing to confront US displeasure and US pressure. Recent US policy has only made matters worse.

Key issues that have plagued the stalled "peace process" include: Israel's occupation, Israeli settlements and settlement-building, the Israeli wall, security for Israelis and Palestinians, shared sovereignty over Jerusalem, and the right of return of 3.7 million stateless Palestinian refugees. '
 

RightinNYC

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Auftrag said:
My first language isn't English. It isn't even my second language come to think of it. I think however that I am doing quite well. Sometimes I make up words without realising that they are not actually an English word.

This is what happens when you have three languages in your head.

About what in particular?

Not because of the titles, but essentially yes, that is precisley what I am arguing.

Perhaps you will be enlightened.

I am a Classical National Socialist (1919-1934) and am opposed to revision, which is precisely what the contemporary National Socialist movements attempt to do.

I suppose you could say, we're "anti-vulger" National Socialists. In so far as w espouse Hitlerism, rather than this blood and honour nonsense.

I dont' know what that means.

Then perhaps I will have the opportunity to discuss with you indepth my political beliefs amd demonstrate that I am not as vacuous as you seemingly accept.

I think Tecoyah has a good idea here. It's not permitted to link to the post here, but if you enter the "Lover's Quarrel" section of the basement, you'll find a place where you and I can really get into this debate and see where it takes us without any outside distractions. Hope it works for you.
 

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Hobbes said:
Lets get a few things straight first. You're trying to blame the Lebanese for their country being blown up. Do I need to remind you that the Syrian army was in Lebanon till a year ago? That's how Hezbollah got their arms in. I'll say it again , SYRIAN ARMY OCCUPYING LEBANON. Now that thats, clear lets discuss the realistic possiblity of the Lebanese government disarming Hezbollah. There already was an international mandate made by the UN to disarm Hezbollah. So its already out there in the international field, and if the Lebanese government pressed it too much, in the fragile democracy that they have, civil war could easily have erupted.

Or we can talk about how a human being responds when their homes are blowned up and their country attacked. Is it beyond comprehension to understand why the Lebanese now support Hezbollah more than before. Who's defending them, who's blowing them up. This is what's going through their minds.

I'm sure you already know, only one part of Hezbollah is military. The other provided aid to the Lebanese. Maybe you can therefore appreciate why they accepted Hezbollah.

I think I'll stick to blaming Hezbollah.

Hezbollah blamed Israel for the destruction of Lebanon. Lebanonese govt get on the media and praised Hezbollah and condemned Israel for the destruction of Lebanon. Hezbollah sympathizers and vast majority of Muslim community blamed Israel for Lebanon's destruction. I'm not here to play the blame game. I see what it is and state it exactly as it is.

If the Labanese govt and the people are so afraid to voice their opinion and stand up for what is right and wrong against Hezbollah, they might as well let Syrian army forever occupy Lebanon. Without courage, they don't deserve freedom. If civil war could easily have erupted, maybe there is already something wrong with Lebanon within themselves, and this time bomb is just waiting for any excuse to be blown off, if not now it may be in the future.

If Lebanonese people dare to demonstrate against the Syrian authority, why are they not able to voice their concern peacefully against Hezbollah? If Hezbollah is so tyrannical that they can't have basic free speech, then somebody should have a backbone to do something about it to get rid of the cancer. At least Israel had the courage to even dare to stand up against the five gigantic Arab nations when they just barely began to establish their nation.

If you are a house owner and a member of your household fired a weapon into your neighbor which caused physical and property damages, it doesn't matter whether you have any control over the member of your household. You and the member of your household who caused the damages will be both held liable.

It is beyond my comprehension that a sovereign state which is said to be afraid of Hezbollah but not afraid of Israel will support Hezbollah no matter how wrong Hezbollah did but dared to even blame Israel for defending themselves. Now, who is going to be held responsible for the destruction and death caused on Israel?

You probably did not hear of John Wayne Gacy. Like Hezbollah he also had two parts. One part was a serial murderer and the other part was a clown that worked charity. Just because he did some good deeds in the community does not mean that we have to accept the evils he had done. Maybe you can therefore appreciate why I will never accept Hezbollah.
 

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clone said:

The arcticle left out all the pertinent parts regarding all the parts the Palestinian Arab did and by omission casts Israel as the villain.

Your article stated that "successive Israeli governments refused to consider a Palestinian state", but they left out the part where the Palestinian Arab rejected out right the division of Palestine by UN in 1947 and then immediately attacked the newly established Israel with the help of five Arab nations. Since then the Arab nations had tried several attempts to attack Israel. How can you expect Israel to consider a Palestinian state that is bent on destroying their existence?

For the reference regarding Palestinian Arab's rejection of UN offer, read under the paragraph subtitled "Division of Palestine by United Nations" in this website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Your article also mentioned about Israel's "occupation" of Arab's other territories such as Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and Syria's Golan Heights and the invasion of Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 as if Israel was a tyranny nation that attacked other countries without provocation.

Of course we all know that's not true. In any dispute, there is alway two sides to a story. They puposely left out the part about the six day war where Israel was defending themselves from the Arab nations and the Arabs lost the war. The terrirories in question were disputed territories and not occupied lands as they claimed. And regarding Israel's invasion of Lebanon they also conveniently left out the reasons Israel invaded Lebanon. I would not trust a site that tell only one sided story, would you?
 

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clone said:
hows this (courtesy of Global Policy Forum - http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm):

'Israel, Palestine and the Occupied Territories'
Palestine? Why the need to troll Clone? Because your stance on Hizbollah is indefensible and you are getting your @ss handed to you?

Even Arab League members such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Kuwait declared that Hamas and Hizbollah attacked Israel without provocation. Try dealing with honest reality instead of canned radical propaganda.

Trolling off topic is always a dependable sign of positional weakness.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Shayah
Palestine? Why the need to troll Clone? Because your stance on Hizbollah is indefensible and you are getting your @ss handed to you?

Even Arab League members such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Kuwait declared that Hamas and Hizbollah attacked Israel without provocation. Try dealing with honest reality instead of canned radical propaganda.

Trolling off topic is always a dependable sign of positional weakness.
Then what the hell was Israel doing shooting a missle into a van killing 11 Palestinians (most were children) back on June 14?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by blastula
Since then the Arab nations had tried several attempts to attack Israel. How can you expect Israel to consider a Palestinian state that is bent on destroying their existence?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Abbas recently get Hamas to agree (in principle) to Israel's right to exist?
 
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