Why does society hate families?

[BodiSatva]

It is an undercurrent, but yes...to accept this behavior as a society is to hate family structure as it has been since the dawn of the family structure as we know it...

Mary Cheney, 37, and her partner of 15 years, Heather Poe, 45, are expecting a baby in late spring,

And we wonder what is wrong with our country!


The fact that people will not be married but be together and have kids is one thing...
The fact that women will get divorced and be forced to be a single mother is another...

The fact that women will CHOOSE to be single mothers is bad enough...
(Yes, have a one-Nighter and get pregnant and then try to dump the guy...
I knew two, so don't start with "that doesn't happen garbage)

The fact that women will knowingly seek out artificial means to have a child without a father in a Lesbian relationship shows that there is no respect for family or men, and the fact that people will support a woman in her selfish desire, not support an "Oooops" but support the whole structure that Knowingly puts kids into a fatherless situation and tries to justify this decision as if it is healthy... to raise a child out of balance...

Well, this goes to show how insane people are...being understanding to the selfish mothers hopes and dreams is one thing...
Openly supporting and accepeting this selfish choice and ultimate action is ridiculously insulting and selfish...

Am I being Conservative? Not really...just practical. These thoughts in no way label me as anti-gay, or anyting else just as inaccurate, so don't bother with that game.

Can a child be raised to be a well adjusted adult? Possibly...

Should Lesbians and Gays be allowed to have kids... YES! It is called ADOPTION! That would be a truly Enlightened and Liberal Method that would help hundreds of thousands of kids...AND THE SYSTEM SHOULD CHANGE SO THAT HOMOSEXUALS ARE ALLOWED TO ADOPT SO THAT WE DON'T FORCE ARTIFICIAL MEANS AS THEIR ONLY OPTION!

Just wait until they come up with the technology to allow a man to insemenate an egg in an artificial womb that will see it grow and develop into a healthy baby that is "Born" to a single father with no deed of a nagging wife... Oh Boy! What a turn of the tables and how the women would NEVER EVER STOP BITCHING ABOUT HOW A CHILD NEEDS THE NURTURING OF A MOTHER! Haha!

I will laugh in the face of these women and weep for the child the day that this happens...

 

[1069]

Goodness! :shock:
More to the point, why do you hate families?
This is the most blatant case of uterus envy I've ever seen.

 

[BodiSatva]

Originally Posted by BodiSatva
These thoughts in no way label me as anti-gay, or anyting else just as inaccurate, so don't bother with that game.

So that is all you have...to play the old, "I am gonna ignore your point and label you _______ and put you on the defensive so that I don't have to face the real issue" tactic? Boring. Done to death. More Importantly...

Originally Posted by BodiSatva

- will CHOOSE to be single mothers is bad enough...(have a one-Nighter and get pregnant and then try to dump the guy...)
- will knowingly seek out artificial means to have a child without a father
- structure that Knowingly puts kids into a fatherless situation and tries to justify this decision as if it is healthy

So you condone these actions? Wow! Why do you hate children so much 1069? Seriously... To condone these anti-children actions is amazingly shallow of you.

Originally Posted by 1069
Goodness!
This is the most blatant case of uterus envy I've ever seen.

:rofl

"uterus envy"

:rofl

Dang! That is funny... how did you mix in such humor with such a total lack of understanding? THAT is funny in and of itself!

Nope...

Don't fall into the "Simpleton" trap, and confuse logic with emotion...

I see kids that have no mother or no father (for a variety of reasons) and it breaks my heart. So, why don't you explain how I hate families when I come form a large family and have my own family (Wife - Two Daughters - we are all extremely Liberal, but we also have common sense, a trait fast becoming lost on the Left unfortuantely) instead of displaying your hatred of children... thanks.

Hey, if this is the depth of your insight and if you can't make a contribution that would either illuminate your brilliant understanding for me or simply point out a flaw, then I guess I will just chalk this reply up to idiocy...

I eagerly await your reply! :smile:

 

[Stace]

The fact that people will not be married but be together and have kids is one thing...

Still a family.

The fact that women will get divorced and be forced to be a single mother is another...

Still a family.

The fact that women will CHOOSE to be single mothers is bad enough...

Still a family.

The fact that women will knowingly seek out artificial means to have a child without a father in a Lesbian relationship

Still a family. Not to mention the fact that it's not only lesbians that choose this route to motherhood.

Can a child be raised to be a well adjusted adult?

Yes.


It seems to me that your problem is not that society is rejecting families; you have a problem with family units that do not fall into the nuclear family mold. Why? There are MANY instances in which a child would be MUCH better off in any one of the above scenarios versus a nuclear family. Child abuse comes to mind.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

BodiSatva, if I understand your OP correctly, you are speaking of the importance of having a child's father involved in the family/child's life, and not counting situations that could occur (divorce, death, etc...), that choosing to no have a father in a family/for a child is detrimental and less healthy for the child. Am I following you?

 

[BodiSatva]

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
BodiSatva, if I understand your OP correctly, you are speaking of the importance of having a child's father involved in the family/child's life, and not counting situations that could occur (divorce, death, etc...), that choosing to no have a father in a family/for a child is detrimental and less healthy for the child. Am I following you?

Yes. No I await your destruction of my thoughts. :2razz:

Originally Posted by Stace
have a problem with family units that do not fall into the nuclear family mold. Why? There are MANY instances in which a child would be MUCH better off in any one of the above scenarios versus a nuclear family. Child abuse comes to mind.

All those that you and I mentioned ARE families, I should have phrased my Topic more carefully...point taken Stace.

But, there are already enough difficulties in raising a family, why purposely add another? Start out with the best scenario for the child. A father and a mother.

We can't start out with the assumption that a heterosexual family can and might fail, or at least if you do, you need to think the same for the homosexual...then they are starting out in the negative in my opinion...that is all.

I know many people that would have been better off with two gay parents, and many that have. I just don't think that this should be the starting point. Even two gay parents going in that want the best can be just as bad as two heterosexuals... why complicate matters further?

 

[1069]

But, there are already enough difficulties in raising a family, why purposely add another?

By the same token, why should ugly people breed?
Fat people?
Handicapped people?

Because they want to, and because it is their right.

 

[Roberdorus]

By the same token, why should ugly people breed?
Fat people?
Handicapped people?

Because they want to, and because it is their right.

Hey, just because it's their right doesn't mean it's right. I don't want fat people to breed. We don't need any more fat people.

 

[1069]

Hey, just because it's their right doesn't mean it's right. I don't want fat people to breed. We don't need any more fat people.

Well, I want them to, if they want to.
Beside the potential physical liabilities they might or might not pass on to their offspring, they might also pass on great intellectual gifts. Who knows?
Who are we to say? It's up to them, not us.
Even people with HIV have the right to procreate; there's a chance their offspring won't be infected, and a chance they will. There's a chance the infected parent won't live to raise the child to adulthood, and the burden will fall to the state.
But regardless, it's still their right, just as it's yours and mine.

 

[BodiSatva]

1069
By the same token, why should ugly people breed?
Fat people?
Handicapped people?

Because they want to, and because it is their right.

Sorry 1069, I don't let people take the conversation off into tangents instead of answering the question and taking responsibility. When you answer in kind, as I did, instead of creating new topic points, I will consider your opinions again.

Until then, you made it perfectly clear that you wouldn't accept my attempt to re-balance our interaction, and that is fine, but I don't move forward without addressing the issue, that is just what mature and well-adjusted individuals do.

And if you don't like how I came after you in the first place, then don't initially cast out Ignorantly Contrived Accusations.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Yes. No I await your destruction of my thoughts. :2razz:

Now why would I destroy your thoughts? :2razz::mrgreen:



Seriously, If what I posted is a reflection of your true intention (the importance of a father), then, not only will you have no argument from me, but I can post research that supports the importance of fathers. Doesn't mean that children can't be successful without one, just that a father increases those chances.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Seriously, If what I posted is a reflection of your true intention (the importance of a father), then, not only will you have no argument from me, but I can post research that supports the importance of fathers.

Aye. My question would be, in the absence of a father, why he believes that two mothers is worse than one.

Our society hates families, to be certain, but the case in the original post is not an example of that; if anything, it's an example of two women proving their proper moral valuing of children and their desire to raise them. It is a shame that they have no man to help them... but that's a consequence of our society's insistence upon monogamy and the unnatural isolation of parents from their kin.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Aye. My question would be, in the absence of a father, why he believes that two mothers is worse than one.

Our society hates families, to be certain, but the case in the original post is not an example of that; if anything, it's an example of two women proving their proper moral valuing of children and their desire to raise them. It is a shame that they have no man to help them... but that's a consequence of our society's insistence upon monogamy and the unnatural isolation of parents from their kin.

My position would be that, yes, having a father in a child's life can be correlated to positive self esteem. However, that doesn't mean that a child without a father can't have positive self esteem. A father can help the process.

 

[BodiSatva]

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
Now why would I destroy your thoughts?

Seriously, If what I posted is a reflection of your true intention (the importance of a father), then, not only will you have no argument from me, but I can post research that supports the importance of fathers. Doesn't mean that children can't be successful without one, just that a father increases those chances.

My position would be that, yes, having a father in a child's life can be correlated to positive self esteem. However, that doesn't mean that a child without a father can't have positive self esteem. A father can help the process.

Well Said! I am not sure why this was so hard for some people to grasp the simplicity of MY ACTUAL WORDS...but people like to assume and create issues where there are none...

Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat
Aye. My question would be, in the absence of a father, why he believes that two mothers is worse than one.

I am not sure why you didn't just ask me...
That is a little strange, but oh well:

To answer your assumption...it was not a question, after all: I don't.

Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat
society's insistence upon monogamy and the unnatural isolation of parents from their kin.

"society's insistence (of) unnatural isolation of parents from their kin"

What does his mean?

Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat
Our society hates families, to be certain, but the case in the original post is not an example of that

I didn't say that it was...I am questioning why people would voluntarily make a choice to have a kid without a father when having a father is the optimum situation...

Inability to have what you want does not mean go out and do what you want and make the best of it, because, "the kid is better off here than in other situations". The lesser of two evils, so to speak, is still not good for the kid. I am not sure why people aren't thinking about the kid...but as usual, people only think about themselves...and for that fact, they shouldn't be parents.

Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat
It is a shame that they have no man to help them...

So I guess anything goes then...huh?
A kid being born into a Swinger Family is better than a kid being born in Darfur only to be kidnapped into a militia at age 10...

Because, it sure is a shame that there will be no structure or consistency, but it sure will be better than...

 

[1069]

"society's insistence (of) unnatural isolation of parents from their kin"

What does his mean?

Korimyr has misgivings about the soundness of the "nuclear family" model.
As, for that matter, do I.

 

[BodiSatva]

1069

Even though you continue to ignore your initial assuptions and total disrespect, and even though this is not in the Basement as you wanted...

I will venture a reply:

The Nuclear Family Model has worked for thousands of years...
Mother - Children - AND Father

Are you against structure and consistency?
These are two of the most important aspects of raising a healthy child...

What is a better model than The Nuclear Family model?

P.S. Is this an example of giving me what I so richly deserve?

P.P.S. Are you a homosexual male? it appeared so from your message... Why are you contacting me at all? Lack of logic, assumptions and apparent hypocrisy thus far...to name a few, what is next?

 

[1069]

The Nuclear Family Model has worked for thousands of years...
Mother - Children - AND Father

The nuclear family model only came into existence in the immediate post-WWII era.
I don't believe the late 1940s were "thousands of years" ago (although it sometimes feels like it); neither do I believe there's any compelling evidence that said model has "worked".

 

[1069]

Why are you contacting me at all?

I said no such thing.
I politely asked you not to contact me privately again, that's all.
I didn't know you were going to go batsh!t over my simple request.
It just seems to me that whatever we need to discuss can be discussed publicly, or not at all.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

It is an undercurrent, but yes...to accept this behavior as a society is to hate family structure as it has been since the dawn of the family structure as we know it...

"Hate" is too strong a word. To accept this behavior is to accept the family's alteration into other forms that may be just as successful. What's wrong with that?

And we wonder what is wrong with our country!

Nah, I know what's wrong with our country. No compassion, and people don't read.

The fact that people will not be married but be together and have kids is one thing...
The fact that women will get divorced and be forced to be a single mother is another...

The fact that women will CHOOSE to be single mothers is bad enough...
(Yes, have a one-Nighter and get pregnant and then try to dump the guy...
I knew two, so don't start with "that doesn't happen garbage)

The fact that women will knowingly seek out artificial means to have a child without a father in a Lesbian relationship shows that there is no respect for family or men, and the fact that people will support a woman in her selfish desire, not support an "Oooops" but support the whole structure that Knowingly puts kids into a fatherless situation and tries to justify this decision as if it is healthy... to raise a child out of balance...

What is wrong with these sorts of families? What benefit does that "balance" bring that one woman, or two women, or two men could not bring as well?

I don't see what's so terrible about a fatherless situation assuming that the parent(s) are capable of providing what a child needs. I think it rather silly to assume that a particular family will not be able to raise well-adjusted children in the utter absence of evidence to support that assertion. There are too many different forms of family to assume that one will work better than another, and there are too many factors involved in good parenting to assume that the gender of the parents is the crucial one. If anything, I'd put that way down the list, after general health and well-being, mental and emotional stability, financial stability, intelligence, education, and compassion (in no particular order -- but still all above gender).

Well, this goes to show how insane people are...being understanding to the selfish mothers hopes and dreams is one thing...
Openly supporting and accepeting this selfish choice and ultimate action is ridiculously insulting and selfish...

Why? What is insulting? That these women are implying that the male gender is unnecessary? I don't think they are, and you shouldn't take it personally in any case.
What is selfish about wanting to have children? I don't want to have children because I'm selfish; I find it hard to believe that anyone who wants to live their life for another (my basic definition of good parenting) could be seen as selfish in comparison to me.

Am I being Conservative? Not really...just practical. These thoughts in no way label me as anti-gay, or anyting else just as inaccurate, so don't bother with that game.

Not anti-gay by any means, but absolutely conservative. Your argument for a two-gendered household seems to be, "That's the way we've always done it!" and your argument against a single-gendered household seems to be, "That's not the way we've always done it!" I think that's the epitome of conservatism.

Can a child be raised to be a well adjusted adult? Possibly...

Whether it can or can't has little to do with the gender of the parents.

Should Lesbians and Gays be allowed to have kids... YES! It is called ADOPTION! That would be a truly Enlightened and Liberal Method that would help hundreds of thousands of kids...AND THE SYSTEM SHOULD CHANGE SO THAT HOMOSEXUALS ARE ALLOWED TO ADOPT SO THAT WE DON'T FORCE ARTIFICIAL MEANS AS THEIR ONLY OPTION!

I agree that homosexuals should be allowed to adopt, but why should they not be allowed to use artificial means to produce their own biological children? Are you saying that bringing new children into the world instead of taking care of the ones that are already here is selfish in some way? Are your kids adopted?

Just wait until they come up with the technology to allow a man to insemenate an egg in an artificial womb that will see it grow and develop into a healthy baby that is "Born" to a single father with no deed of a nagging wife... Oh Boy! What a turn of the tables and how the women would NEVER EVER STOP BITCHING ABOUT HOW A CHILD NEEDS THE NURTURING OF A MOTHER! Haha!

When it happens, we'll see if you're right. But this is hardly a justification for your bitching right now.

I will laugh in the face of these women and weep for the child the day that this happens...

I will do neither. But I find it interesting that your implication here is that women should laugh in your face for your equivalent argument about this situation.


Since it seems to be the crux of the biscuit, so to speak, can you tell me what fathers bring to parenting that no woman can bring in a man's place?

 

[1069]

But I find it interesting that your implication here is that women should laugh in your face for your equivalent argument about this situation.

He seems to feel that they already are, hence his fury.

 

[BodiSatva]

CoffeeSaint

Well said CoffeeSaint, as usual.

Your argument for a two-gendered household seems to be, "That's the way we've always done it!"

No. This is not my argument. That is what I have stated lately, but that is just a portion of my reasoning...

this is hardly a justification for your bitching right n

This is not a justification, it is an anology.

can you tell me what fathers bring to parenting that no woman can bring in a man's place?

Being a man. Unless you think that men and women are the same, there is no argument that can justify that a good mother and mother can be superior to a good father and mother, then my initial comments stands unchallenged despite any real or assumed hysterics and rantings on my part...

"Hate" is too strong a word.

I agree. I think that I already addressed this as bad terminology on my part, but if I haven't then I do now. It was my intention to get people riled up more than anything, but I should have been more careful...

All the arguments ahve been fine by all people, but you are assuming that I think that two women or two men cannot do as good of a job as a father and a mother, thius is untrue. This is false assumption. I ma talking about all things being equal...only CaptainCourtesy has Courteously recognized and/or acknowledged this...

 

[BodiSatva]

1069

No fury...nice try.

The nuclear family model only came into existence in the immediate post-WWII era

The term Nuclear Family only came into existence in the immediate post-WWII era to help explain and justify modernization and distance between families. The actual structure of the family has been this way for thousands of years, except that there were also extended aspects of the family around...

Bodi
Why are you contacting me at all?

1069
I said no such thing.

What planet are you from? You never said, "Why are you contacting me at all?"? You never said that? I never said that you did. See, I read this bizarre conclusion of yours and I understand your confusion regarding tasks that are more complicated, like Understanding concepts and critically thinking about issues.

You asked me not to contact you privately again and now I am wondering why you want to contact or talk to me at all since you were so freaking bugged and wanted the thread in the Basement...

You have insane issues about communicating effectively and taking responsibility for what you say...

I politely asked you not to contact me privately again, that's all

“Eat my ***, punk.
I've requested Vauge move the thread to the basement where it belongs, so I can give you what you so richly deserve.
Christ. Don't contact me privately again.”

That is politely? Not only do you assume and not only are you illogical, you are also a liar.

I didn't know you were going to go batsh!t over my simple request.

Nobody has really ever forced you to take responsibility for you actions before, have they child?

It just seems to me that whatever we need to discuss can be discussed publicly, or not at all.

You have not discussed them in either forum thus far, so my decision is to now not talk to you again unless you change your game…

 

[1069]

I don't understand most of what you just said.
You have no power to prevent me from participating in this or any other thread I choose to participate in.
I have no power to prevent you from continuing to badger me by PM... but I don't have to read your PMs.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Been a busy weekend, but I'm trying to compile some research and links around the importance of the father's role.

Here's a good article that I found: Dad's Role More Important Than Mom's?, New Study Stresses Importance Of Dad's Interaction With Kids - CBS News

One interesting study discusses the importance of a father's involvement in a child's schooling. Involvement seems to improve all aspects of a child's performance and outlook; grades, behavior, school enjoyment, and extracurricular involvement. Interestingly enough, the research also shows that father's in two parent households are the least likely to be involved in a number of explored family scenerios.

Link: 98-091 / Fathers' Involvement in Their Children's Schools Check out the conclusion section.

I will continue to look for more information.

On a side note. This can be a very interesting debate, and I wouldn't want to see this thread moved to the Basement. Can the personal attacks please stop, and can we stay on topic? Just a friendly request. Thanks.

 

[BodiSatva]

CaptainCourtesy
Can the personal attacks please stop, and can we stay on topic? Just a friendly request. Thanks.

A friendly and APPROPRIATE request...
Indeed I shall refrain from any other personal attacks.

I will post later with some research of my own Captain...