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Why do we have veterans' hospitals?

The exaggeration of 40 to 1 doesn't help. Is the VA mismanaged sure. The question is do we fix it or just abandon it as I suspect maggie is promoting here in this thread. Abandon it and you think the government is done, can wash its hands of the Veterans and there will be no bureaucrats all of a sudden - seriously? That won't fix anything except to make the already overburdened public health care system more rationed for everyone. And wowza...who you think's going to do the rationing? You've already seen radical leftist on these every forums have no trouble letting people head off to hospice rather then be cared for.

Actually, I am being rather generous there I think. The ratio in the VA between Medical and Non-medical staff is likely much closer to 100 to 1.

Remember, this is a Cabinet level bureaucracy that does a lot more then handle medical needs. Housing loans, student grants, educational benefits, pension checks, dependent checks, veteran funerals, maintaining veteran records, the list simply goes on and on and on and on.

Everybody keeps concentrating on the hospital system, but I see the entire organization as broken. From the weenie who keeps throwing my request for enlisted records for the last 7 years into the trash, to the non-medical administrator that fudges paperwork to make them look better when it comes time for their annual review.

However, a good and thorough house-cleaning can do wonders. Nothing will ever completely fix it, but getting rid of a lot of the bad administrators and putting in place a system to ensure that all complaints are handled will go a long ways.

And if your department gets to many complaints that are not resolved, then it is time to clean house in that department. Like in Military Records.

Funny how some random civilian can file a FOIA and get a record brief of somebody in a couple of weeks, but it takes years for a veteran to get their own DD-214.
 
Can the civilian system handle an influx of millions of veterans?

What makes you think that would happen in the first place?

Only a small percentage of those who served are eligible for any kind of VA medical care in the first place.

And secondly, where do you think we get our medical care otherwise? Last year I had an accident and broke my wrist. Where do you think I went for treatment? Certainly not the VA. Not only would it have taken forever, but I am not eligible for that kind of care from the VA. So I went to my civilian doctor, like 99% of veterans do.

The VA only has to treat around 5 million veterans. And they can't even do that right.
 
Maggie, I am going to hit on this one more time real quick.

Now let's all think about this. Can somebody please explain the logic here for me?

We have a Cabinet level department, that has been horribly run and in serious trouble for denying individuals the medical treatments they are mandated to provide, and then try to hide this face.

And what is the Government going to do about it? Why, give them even more hospitals and facilities that they can administer just as badly, giving them larger budgets and more personnel!

This is like something straight out of a Lewis Carroll novel. Now imagine this happening in any other Cabinet level position.

Hey, DOT, you have not done any maintenance and aircraft are falling out of the skies. So I am going to give you 4 new airports to administer the same way.

Hey, BLM, you are letting the National Forests burn up with lack of fire prevention measures and millions of Federal land is now sitting fallow instead of being used by ranchers and farmers. So we are going to increase your staff by 5% in the hopes you can stop that.

Hey Treasury Department, our currency has sunk to worthless, in par with the Mexican Peso. So let's build you 10 more mints so you can churn out even more!

Money is not the solution, it is excising the rot of the system and replacing it with one that mandates results and responsibility. Otherwise you might as well flush that $25 billion straight down the toilet for all the good it will do.

Thank you, Oozle. Yours is one of the very few posts that speaks to the real problem.
 
Can the civilian system handle an influx of millions of veterans?

I don't know. Supposedly we're all headed to hell in hand baskets right now with the influx from the AHA. ;)

But if the private sector can't handle it, they'll build more facilities. The only things the veterans take advantage of are the facilities themselves, after all. The number of doctors/nurses/etc/etc won't change.
 
Actually, I am being rather generous there I think. The ratio in the VA between Medical and Non-medical staff is likely much closer to 100 to 1.

Remember, this is a Cabinet level bureaucracy that does a lot more then handle medical needs. Housing loans, student grants, educational benefits, pension checks, dependent checks, veteran funerals, maintaining veteran records, the list simply goes on and on and on and on.

Everybody keeps concentrating on the hospital system, but I see the entire organization as broken. From the weenie who keeps throwing my request for enlisted records for the last 7 years into the trash, to the non-medical administrator that fudges paperwork to make them look better when it comes time for their annual review.

However, a good and thorough house-cleaning can do wonders. Nothing will ever completely fix it, but getting rid of a lot of the bad administrators and putting in place a system to ensure that all complaints are handled will go a long ways.

And if your department gets to many complaints that are not resolved, then it is time to clean house in that department. Like in Military Records.

Funny how some random civilian can file a FOIA and get a record brief of somebody in a couple of weeks, but it takes years for a veteran to get their own DD-214.

that would actually require us allowing the buracrates the ability to enforce policy without being chained up by excessive legalese meant to keep bureaucrats from using powers.
 
Thank you, Oozle. Yours is one of the very few posts that speaks to the real problem.

Well, you know that I really do not care much for politics. And finger wagging and pointing is worse then worthless, it just makes people feel good while not addressing the real problem.

Yea, I have suffered through the VA through 3 Presidential Administrations, each of which promised to "fix the VA". And every single one of them spent huge amounts of money on this.

And not a damned thing has changed in the last 21 years (and even longer - my uncle has the same issues and he served in Vietnam). Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans could fix it, because it is unfixable the way it is set up now. And all of this coprolite "It's His Fault! No it's His fault!" will accomplish absolutely nothing. And I do not care about fixing blame, I only care about solving the problem.

How about our political parties stop trying to throw the blame at each other, and actually solve the problem? Hey people, stop trying to smear your "political opponents" with this and try to actually do something about it!

Because from what I see, most of those who are screaming the loudest are neither veterans, nor do they give a crap about veterans. They just want some crap to throw around. Myself, I do not really hide how little I care about our current Administration. But if they can actually do something to fix this (rather then just throw a bandaid funding proposal) and prevent such abuse in the future, my hat will be off to them.
 
that would actually require us allowing the buracrates the ability to enforce policy without being chained up by excessive legalese meant to keep bureaucrats from using powers.

No, it is really not all that hard at all. And much of the infrastructure can be modeled directly off of a system most already know... the military.

In the military, you have an "Inspector General", or some similar title. This person sits completely outside of the Chain of Command, and one of their main jobs is to look out for the servicemembers and their rights. Command screwing you over? Write to the IG and they will investigate. Unfounded, and that is it. A legitimate complaint, and anything from fixing the problem, moving the individual to a new command, even relieving of the people who are involved can be the result.

The VA needs the same system. How about make this a special council under the JCoS? A board of individuals who are on Active Duty get complaints and investigate them to see if they have merit. If not, then the results of this are filed to the individual. If they have merit, then they can work as am Ombudsman to make sure that the former servicemember is treated correctly. And if that is not enough, the power to take it up through the SOD directly as a Cabinet Level Official to the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Right now, about the only recourse an individual has is to go to their Congressman. That is pretty freaking pathetic, and they have more important things to do with their time. Most even have an individual on their staff who does nothing but handle Veteran issues. Does that give any idea how bad this problem is?
 
To answer your question, Maggie. We have health care facilities such as the VA because they're governed in part by the military itself. Also, many have been around since long before the civilian health care system shaped up adequately, often cropping up right next to military bases and posts - where health care outside the military-heavy area didn't really exist. (Meaning: VA hospitals were more commonly just a part of active duty hospitals and care centers in the past)

In many areas it made sense to have it that way. It was an answer to an issue. But, yes, the civilian system is now much larger and more substantial. Things just aren't quite like it used to be.

What makes you think that would happen in the first place?

Only a small percentage of those who served are eligible for any kind of VA medical care in the first place.

And secondly, where do you think we get our medical care otherwise? Last year I had an accident and broke my wrist. Where do you think I went for treatment? Certainly not the VA. Not only would it have taken forever, but I am not eligible for that kind of care from the VA. So I went to my civilian doctor, like 99% of veterans do.

The VA only has to treat around 5 million veterans. And they can't even do that right.

Only 5 million. You say that as if it's a small number. So if they treat 5 million veterans for everything from PTSD to hip problems then why would that not be expected to have any sort of an impact on the whole of the civilian care system?

It would have an impact. You said 'they'd build more facilities' - which means there's be a higher demand for space, doctors, nursing staff, etc.

Pretend they started to dissolve the VA system: If it's a slow influx it seems sensible as it would give the system time to respond, at the least.
 
Only 5 million. You say that as if it's a small number. So if they treat 5 million veterans for everything from PTSD to hip problems then why would that not be expected to have any sort of an impact on the whole of the civilian care system?

In a nation with a population of over 318 million, 5 million is miniscule.
 
In a nation with a population of over 318 million, 5 million is miniscule.

Why are you trying to break it down to numbers? It's 5% of the population so it should be no big deal?

Doesn't matter.

100 new patients here - 1,000 new patients there. It would have a tremendous demand and an impact. Trying to claim 'oh - small beans' won't equate to diddly squat when it comes to processing records, transferring personal information, and adjusting in various other ways.
 
Why are you trying to break it down to numbers? It's 5% of the population so it should be no big deal?

Uh, actually that is a fraction over 1% of the population.

It would be 5% if the population was less then 1/3 of it's current size.
 
The clinic I've been volunteering at is small. Staff is about 55 people and there are 3 clerical, and the admin on site is an RN. Not one admin here other then the clerical hasn't got some kind of education be it mental health or medical.


Actually, I am being rather generous there I think. The ratio in the VA between Medical and Non-medical staff is likely much closer to 100 to 1.

Remember, this is a Cabinet level bureaucracy that does a lot more then handle medical needs. Housing loans, student grants, educational benefits, pension checks, dependent checks, veteran funerals, maintaining veteran records, the list simply goes on and on and on and on.

Everybody keeps concentrating on the hospital system, but I see the entire organization as broken. From the weenie who keeps throwing my request for enlisted records for the last 7 years into the trash, to the non-medical administrator that fudges paperwork to make them look better when it comes time for their annual review.

However, a good and thorough house-cleaning can do wonders. Nothing will ever completely fix it, but getting rid of a lot of the bad administrators and putting in place a system to ensure that all complaints are handled will go a long ways.

And if your department gets to many complaints that are not resolved, then it is time to clean house in that department. Like in Military Records.

Funny how some random civilian can file a FOIA and get a record brief of somebody in a couple of weeks, but it takes years for a veteran to get their own DD-214.
 
Do you have any evidence that VA hospitals somehow treat patients cheaper than the private sector? If I'm not mistaken, that's what you're saying. Should we have special hospitals for people suffering from leukemia? Diabetes? Heart failure?

If you're asking me if veterans deserve to be treated as special cases, the answer to that is yes. If you want to know why, visit Arlington National Cemetery or any other military cemetaries. Check the ages of those buried there.

That's why they deserve special treatment.

Are you actually equating care for those with leukemia or diabetes with the hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens dead in the prime of their life because we, as a nation, decided to send them to war?
 
If you're asking me if veterans deserve to be treated as special cases, the answer to that is yes. If you want to know why, visit Arlington National Cemetery or any other military cemetaries. Check the ages of those buried there.

That's why they deserve special treatment.

Are you actually equating care for those with leukemia or diabetes with the hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens dead in the prime of their life because we, as a nation, decided to send them to war?

I don't know what you're saying here. I acknowledge there's no better place in the entire WORLD than certain VA hospitals for the treatment of battlefield injuries. That's a given. But that's not the majority of healthcare veterans receive at the VA. Many more vets than those receiving the very specialized medical care for battlefield injuries are using it as their primary source of normal, routine healthcare.
 
Think about it. Why do we have veterans' hospitals? Are not private sector hospitals good enough? Why not simply enroll veterans in the AHA? Depending on a means test, all veterans could be entitled to an "X" subsidy, resulting in many of them receiving it completely free.

Why not?
I agree, I don't see why veterans shouldn't be able to get privatized medical care instead of having a separate system. They can have certain hospitals in certain cities that specialize in treating certain injuries like shrapnel wounds and fly people in if they need it, in other cities veterans could see their local doctor. Although I don't think enrolling people in the AHA will be the same because plans have deductibles and copays, but they can have a voucher system or create a plan that would be accepted in private medical care.

Also, I'm perplexed by the whole scandal as it seems like it would be more work to create and maintain phony lists rather to ask for and hire more doctors.
 
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The clinic I've been volunteering at is small. Staff is about 55 people and there are 3 clerical, and the admin on site is an RN. Not one admin here other then the clerical hasn't got some kind of education be it mental health or medical.

And let me say this once again...

The Medical section of the VA is not all of the VA!

That is only one part of an organization that does everything from arrange death benefits to survivors of servicemembers killed in the line of duty, to funeral and headstone arrangements for any veteran who dies. They take care of GI Bill and other student programs, home loan programs, disability retraining, and a gigantic slew of other things, including storage and retrieval of all personnel and medical records.

You keep going back to the VA like it is only a medical system, it is not. That is like saying everybody in the military is a rifleman.
 
Unfortunately, there are many bad people who try to fake being a veteran. People buy and sell medals, and people can have "veteran ID" cards to get discounts or what ever.
 
Unfortunately, there are many bad people who try to fake being a veteran. People buy and sell medals, and people can have "veteran ID" cards to get discounts or what ever.

Uhhh, there is no such thing as a "Veteran ID Card". Does not exist.
 
That's my point. They are fake. But your old joe at home depot may or may not. And what is he going to do? yell at a potential Vietnam war veteran? He could just be be old with a bad memory and forgot his actual identification. Trust me- I have seen commercials advertising to veterans to get there cards 'veteranified'. To tired right now to explain how.
 
That's my point. They are fake. But your old joe at home depot may or may not. And what is he going to do? yell at a potential Vietnam war veteran? He could just be be old with a bad memory and forgot his actual identification. Trust me- I have seen commercials advertising to veterans to get there cards 'veteranified'. To tired right now to explain how.

Veterans do not get discounts at Home Depot, only people with actual Military ID cards (Active, Retired or Dependent). One of those is as much ID Cards you talk about is as much "ID" my ferry pass. And stored that routinely give military discounts know how to tell the difference.
 
Veterans' healthcare and other bennies is a perk of the soldiering job established with the first colonists, and widened and improved on ever since.

The veteran's hospital system was created by Lincoln.
 
The veteran's hospital system was created by Lincoln.

True but the Modern VA didn't come around until the 1930's.
 
True but the Modern VA didn't come around until the 1930's.

It didn't begin with Colonials, is the point. We have to stamp out historical lies everytime we see them.
 
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