Why do they hate us?

[nefarious_plot]

The ones that don’t can become ones that do in the twinkling of an eye, as it happened in Britain 7/7.



I know. I loathe all dominionist religions equally. It’s just that …



… Islam is currently the greatest threat to Western civilisation.

It hink people need to stop allwoing the media to make them so afraid of ghosts. It leads to prejudice and more war.

 

[Michael Zaretski]

It hink people need to stop allwoing the media to make them so afraid of ghosts. It leads to prejudice and more war.

Um … religion-based terrorism isn’t a ghost, it’s quite real. 9/11 was no apparition, and 7/7 no poltergeist.

I think people need to stop allowing the media to make them try to find a rational cause and solution for every problem. I think it’s time for people to realise that the Manichean division of the world into good and evil is invalid only if it does not reflect reality. As it happens, it does: we’re good, they’re evil. Go from this point onwards.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Um … religion-based terrorism isn’t a ghost, it’s quite real. 9/11 was no apparition, and 7/7 no poltergeist.

I think people need to stop allowing the media to make them try to find a rational cause and solution for every problem. I think it’s time for people to realise that the Manichean division of the world into good and evil is invalid only if it does not reflect reality. As it happens, it does: we’re good, they’re evil. Go from this point onwards.

peolae are for too fearful the media america draws everybody into panick and then irrational descions hate and racism occur.

 

[Snoozin]

… Islam is currently the greatest threat to Western civilisation.

Really? I think Western civilization is its own greatest threat....arrogance doesn't make for the best domestic or foreign policy. A little dose of humility might do us some good.

 

[Snoozin]

As it happens, it does: we’re good, they’re evil. Go from this point onwards.

I'm the first one up there who wants to protect my way of life, but I really don't believe you can categorize any group of people (based on religion, race, even culture) as good or evil. I don't think it's as simplistic as that....every group on this planet has good and evil aspects.

Go after behavior and not humans. Peaceful Muslims are fine. Terrorists are not.

 

[Michael Zaretski]

Really? I think Western civilization is its own greatest threat

Then you’re part of the problem—the problem our immune system, when we, no longer believing in ourselves, lack the ability to confront the threat.

I hold that Western civilisation is the best one. Unabashedly, unapologetically. It is not perfect, but it’s the farthest from dystopia. Its values, the values of 5th century BCE Athens and the 18th century Enlightenment, are the good values. The Muslim enemy has the opposite values, and it wants to impose them everywhere. The earlier people realise this truth, the more suffering can be prevented.

arrogance doesn't make for the best domestic or foreign policy. A little dose of humility might do us some good.

No! Humility would be misplaced here. Humility would be self-destructive. Ours is the best civilisation, and we should be PROUD of it! When we compare our countries to the Islamic, Nazi, Communist or other fascistic “paradises”, we can clearly see that we’re on the right side. The whole world deserves to have the freedoms we enjoy. When we deny the rest of the world those freedoms on the pretext of “multiculturalism”, we betray all those human beings.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Then you’re part of the problem—the problem our immune system, when we, no longer believing in ourselves, lack the ability to confront the threat.

I hold that Western civilisation is the best one. Unabashedly, unapologetically. It is not perfect, but it’s the farthest from dystopia. Its values, the values of 5th century BCE Athens and the 18th century Enlightenment, are the good values. The Muslim enemy has the opposite values, and it wants to impose them everywhere. The earlier people realise this truth, the more suffering can be prevented.



No! Humility would be misplaced here. Humility would be self-destructive. Ours is the best civilisation, and we should be PROUD of it! When we compare our countries to the Islamic, Nazi, Communist or other fascistic “paradises”, we can clearly see that we’re on the right side. The whole world deserves to have the freedoms we enjoy. When we deny the rest of the world those freedoms on the pretext of “multiculturalism”, we betray all those human beings.

There si nothign right about America. Corrupt murderous and racists. You cant defeat the world and the harder he racists and religous whackos try in American the quicker the contry will go further into the gutter.

There is no hope for this nation until it looks inwards at its own problems and take repsonsibilty for them.

 

[Michael Zaretski]

There is no hope for this nation until it looks inwards at its own problems and take repsonsibilty for them.

The US should take responsibility for problems that are really its responsibility (like the New Orleans mess), but the US shouldn’t take responsibility for things for which others are to blame (like Islamic terrorism).

 

[cnredd]

I hate to come in as a moderate and say the things that moderates always say, which is that you're both right.

When it comes down to it, we're not the cause of Islamic terrorism. It's been around for years, and it will continue to exist. They didn't start it because of us.
But then there's the issue of us making more people willing to commit these acts of terrorism. In middle eastern society, from what I can tell, they teach from a young age that martyrdom is the most honorable thing one can do, and thus it doesn't seem like the hardest thing to do to insite a lot of these people to start blowing themselves up, and if we were smart about this **** we'd be walking on eggshells around the middle east, instead of this current policy of trying our hardest to come across as a buffall in a china store, which obviously creates more willing terrorists.But then again there is the issue that now that our government has realized that they can get away with not taking accountability for what goes on over there, they don't have to take accountability for what happens here either, and thus the government can really do no wrong, which is a horrible place to be in (for us).

PLEASE read "Support for Terror Wanes Among Muslim Publics" in this forum....That statement bolded is JUST NOT TRUE...

The ones that were already under the madrasses' spell are the ones going to Iraq to fight...They are not being "created" more...It's actually in decline...

 

[Snoozin]

Then you’re part of the problem—

Thanks for getting personal about it. How mature.

I hold that Western civilisation is the best one. —

I agree it is, for *me.* But does that necessarily mean we have to *impose* our way of life on others?

The Muslim enemy has the opposite values, and it wants to impose them everywhere. The earlier people realise this truth, the more suffering can be prevented.—

That's categorically untrue. Islam itself is *not* the enemy. Corrupt governments, systemic poverty, and vigilante terrorists *are* the enemy.

The whole world deserves to have the freedoms we enjoy. When we deny the rest of the world those freedoms on the pretext of “multiculturalism”, we betray all those human beings.

Then they deserve to have the *freedom* of autonomy and be free of Western Corporatist/Fascist policies, don't you think?

I'm going to assume you are Jewish, and forgive me if I am wrong. But we fought long and hard here in the US for the majority white Christian population to have even minimal respect for Jewish people. Under the pretext of multi-culturalism. Was that wrong? Was I wrong to get in all sorts of fights with my parents when they were spewing their filthy anti-semitic cra* all the time? Was I wrong to argue when they mouthed off about black people? Am I wrong when they denigrate all Muslims as terrorists or all Latinos as job-grabbing illegals?

Well, I'm going to stand here and fight for the rights of any minority. Any and all *illegal or unethical* behavior should never go unpunished, but a person's right to just *be* his/her religion, culture, or race is fundamental.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I'm the first one up there who wants to protect my way of life, but I really don't believe you can categorize any group of people (based on religion, race, even culture) as good or evil. I don't think it's as simplistic as that....every group on this planet has good and evil aspects.

Exactly how are you willing to protect your way of life?

Your right in the respect that all groups have good and evil aspects. But theres only one at the moment that is killing people on a global scale with no regaurds for civilians. That kills in the name of it's religion, and targets the weak, the young, the unarmed. You kow who it is..............

Go after behavior and not humans. Peaceful Muslims are fine. Terrorists are not.

Until the explosion.... how do you tell the difference?

In the eyes of everybody in the area. That terrorist was a peacfull muslim just a milisecond before he hit the button

 

[Calm2Chaos]

There si nothign right about America. Corrupt murderous and racists. You cant defeat the world and the harder he racists and religous whackos try in American the quicker the contry will go further into the gutter.

There is no hope for this nation until it looks inwards at its own problems and take repsonsibilty for them.

Damm since there is nothing right about my country maybe you should evacuate. Take off and find this utopia that your talking about were everybdy dances around and there are no problems. And when there is a slight confrintation they just sit down and do each others hair and talk it over. The mean don't go after the meak, and the small aren't threatened by the large. I definetly think you should relocate there

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The US should take responsibility for problems that are really its responsibility (like the New Orleans mess), but the US shouldn’t take responsibility for things for which others are to blame (like Islamic terrorism).

So a hurricane is our countries fault? We caused this massive hurricane to hit our country?
I really don't understand sentence I guess. 100 of millions in donations 1000's of tons of food, 1000's of tons of clothes and various other supplies...

As far as the terrorist go im thinking the ones to blame are those pulling on the detonator!!!

 

[Snoozin]

Your right in the respect that all groups have good and evil aspects. But theres only one at the moment that is killing people on a global scale with no regaurds for civilians. That kills in the name of it's religion, and targets the weak, the young, the unarmed. You kow who it is..............

Yes, the United States of America.

Until the explosion.... how do you tell the difference?

What do you suggest we do? To me, your question conjures images of our Japanese-American concentration camps during WWII.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Yes, the United States of America.



What do you suggest we do? To me, your question conjures images of our Japanese-American concentration camps during WWII.

Imagine that an assinine untrue statement ... Does not surprise me. Your beloved terrorist are aiming at there own civilians you genius, you should probably be at work defending there killing of children intentionally a few months back

Do nothing let them roam free and kill indiscriminatly within our borders. That should make all the libs happy. Couple 1000 or 10,000 more us civilians dead should be no problem. :roll:

 

[Michael Zaretski]

But then there's the issue of us making more people willing to commit these acts of terrorism. In middle eastern society, from what I can tell, they teach from a young age that martyrdom is the most honorable thing one can do, and thus it doesn't seem like the hardest thing to do to insite a lot of these people to start blowing themselves up, and if we were smart about this **** we'd be walking on eggshells around the middle east, instead of this current policy of trying our hardest to come across as a buffall in a china store, which obviously creates more willing terrorists.

No. Absolutely no. The policies of the US in the Mideast had no part in making those people blow themselves up. Imagine no Jewish state in the Mideast ever existing, and it would still be the same. Israel and Iraq are just excuses, and damn it, people are stupid enough to buy them. But the truth is that Islam is programmed for world domination. No Israel or Iraq for Poitiers (717, if I recall correctly) or Vienna (1529, 1683), you know.

I agree it is, for *me.* But does that necessarily mean we have to *impose* our way of life on others?

Because our way of life is the only good one. We ended up imposing democracy on the Nazis instead of respecting their culture and moral values. Why is the Islamic world any different?

Islam itself is *not* the enemy.

It most certainly is. I’m a student of Islam, I’m in touch with Islamic scripture and law day by day. Islam isn’t a spiritual system, it’s a political system with a law-code for all facets of life, intended for all of mankind. In Islamic terminology, a land not governed by Islamic law is said to be in a state of fitnah, meaning rebellion (against God), and must be brought to cease that state, by imposing Islamic law on it.

Islam is the enemy. That’s the truth. Sorry if it hurts, but denial will only worsen the blow the West will receive.

I'm going to assume you are Jewish, and forgive me if I am wrong.

Yes, that’s right.

But we fought long and hard here in the US for the majority white Christian population to have even minimal respect for Jewish people. Under the pretext of multi-culturalism. Was that wrong? Was I wrong to get in all sorts of fights with my parents when they were spewing their filthy anti-semitic cra* all the time? Was I wrong to argue when they mouthed off about black people? Am I wrong when they denigrate all Muslims as terrorists or all Latinos as job-grabbing illegals?

OK, you’re under impression that I oppose multiculturalism. I will clear this up now.

I’m for multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is good. But … only if all parties agree to play by the rules. For example, the Hindu minority in Britain? No complaints, ’cause they play by the rules. The Sikhs? They play by the rules. Jews, Catholics, atheists, pagans? They all play by the rules.

But the Muslims don’t. They don’t integrate. They form autonomous communities with a law unto themselves. They censor criticism of Islam (viz Rushdie) and they kill apostates from Islam. They respect democracy only to the extent that it lets them implement their religious law, and no further than that. They don’t play by the rules. And since they don’t play by the rules, they shouldn’t be allowed to reap the benefits of multiculturalism. Pure and simple.

So a hurricane is our countries fault? We caused this massive hurricane to hit our country?

No, of course not, what do you think I am?! It’s not your fault, it’s just your responsibility to react to it properly, which didn’t happen. I was contrasting to Islamic terrorism, which it isn’t the responsibility of the US to mend something in its ways in order to curb.

 

[Snoozin]

It most certainly is. I’m a student of Islam, I’m in touch with Islamic scripture and law day by day. Islam isn’t a spiritual system, it’s a political system with a law-code for all facets of life, intended for all of mankind. In Islamic terminology, a land not governed by Islamic law is said to be in a state of fitnah, meaning rebellion (against God), and must be brought to cease that state, by imposing Islamic law on it.

I genuinely have a lot of respect for the fact that you are studying these issues. I'm sure you know more than me about a lot of this stuff. If we can keep this civil, I am sure I will learn a lot.

Islam is the enemy. That’s the truth. Sorry if it hurts, but denial will only worsen the blow the West will receive..

I just don't think it *is* the enemy. A lot of the things we *hate* about Islam stem from cultural influences. Honor killings, FGM. At least, I hate those things because I'm female. And I am not a big fan of rigorous application of Islamic law, but I think there is room in Islam for a more democratic way of life. Islamic states have not always been so regimented. Look at Egypt in the 70s, dyed blond hair and mini-skirts!

And if we can show majority Muslim countries this fact, I think all would benefit. There is room in Islam to have a peaceful state. Its application is key. One thing I really like about the US is the marriage of a democratic republic with a capitalist economy. I think part of the rise of fundamentalism is due to extreme poverty, dictatorial regimes, and old-fashioned power plays.
If we can bring more stable governments to Islamic states that probably would help quash some of the fundamentalist movement. I'm not saying this would be easy, but I do think it's possible.

You would know better than I, but it's the wahhabi movement that bothers me, and that falls outside the four schools of law (I don't know much about Shi'a Islam). If we could get them back on historical track, do you think it would minimize some of the violence?

I’m for multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is good. But … only if all parties agree to play by the rules. For example, the Hindu minority in Britain? No complaints, ’cause they play by the rules. The Sikhs? They play by the rules. Jews, Catholics, atheists, pagans? They all play by the rules.

But the Muslims don’t.

What if they did *play by the rules?*

 

[Calm2Chaos]

No, of course not, what do you think I am?! It’s not your fault, it’s just your responsibility to react to it properly, which didn’t happen. I was contrasting to Islamic terrorism, which it isn’t the responsibility of the US to mend something in its ways in order to curb.

Devestation of that magnitude. I thought the reaction was fine. There was some confussion the first 36-48 hours. But everything was put under control and people were being helped. Lets remeber that a natural disaster such as this has to the best of my knowledge never occured before. Least not in my lifetime

Although I do agree with a lot of other points in your post to one degree or another

 

[nefarious_plot]

No. Absolutely no. The policies of the US in the Mideast had no part in making those people blow themselves up. Imagine no Jewish state in the Mideast ever existing, and it would still be the same. Israel and Iraq are just excuses, and damn it, people are stupid enough to buy them. But the truth is that Islam is programmed for world domination. No Israel or Iraq for Poitiers (717, if I recall correctly) or Vienna (1529, 1683), you know.



Because our way of life is the only good one. We ended up imposing democracy on the Nazis instead of respecting their culture and moral values. Why is the Islamic world any different?



It most certainly is. I’m a student of Islam, I’m in touch with Islamic scripture and law day by day. Islam isn’t a spiritual system, it’s a political system with a law-code for all facets of life, intended for all of mankind. In Islamic terminology, a land not governed by Islamic law is said to be in a state of fitnah, meaning rebellion (against God), and must be brought to cease that state, by imposing Islamic law on it.

Islam is the enemy. That’s the truth. Sorry if it hurts, but denial will only worsen the blow the West will receive.



Yes, that’s right.



OK, you’re under impression that I oppose multiculturalism. I will clear this up now.

I’m for multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is good. But … only if all parties agree to play by the rules. For example, the Hindu minority in Britain? No complaints, ’cause they play by the rules. The Sikhs? They play by the rules. Jews, Catholics, atheists, pagans? They all play by the rules.

But the Muslims don’t. They don’t integrate. They form autonomous communities with a law unto themselves. They censor criticism of Islam (viz Rushdie) and they kill apostates from Islam. They respect democracy only to the extent that it lets them implement their religious law, and no further than that. They don’t play by the rules. And since they don’t play by the rules, they shouldn’t be allowed to reap the benefits of multiculturalism. Pure and simple.



No, of course not, what do you think I am?! It’s not your fault, it’s just your responsibility to react to it properly, which didn’t happen. I was contrasting to Islamic terrorism, which it isn’t the responsibility of the US to mend something in its ways in order to curb.

To say you the things you say about islam its clear your no student of it. American will never raise itself from the dark ages until it can shed its ignorant prejudices.


Furthmroe Us policy leads to this terrorism and if ti cant figure that out its doomed to prpetual war it will never win. You can kill ideas how many decades will it take you people to figure that out. I figure time is not whats needed. Its life. You people wont get it till you kill another 58K ort more. Thick as a brick.

 

[righton]

Do you know any Muslims personally?

Because none of what you say accurately portrays current Muslim culture or thought.

Do I know any Muslims?.

I was born, in and grew up an Islamic country in the ME. I speak one their language. familiar with their backward and premitive customes. I watched them with utter contempt how they treat Jews and Christian minorities living among them. And you ask me if I know Muslims?

everything in that post stem from personal experience.

 

[Snoozin]

Do I know any Muslims?.

I was born, in and grew up an Islamic country in the ME. I speak one their language. familiar with their backward and premitive customes. I watched them with utter contempt how they treat Jews and Christian minorities living among them. And you ask me if I know Muslims?

everything in that post stem from personal experience.

OK, OK. It was a legitimate question.

Which country, if you don't mind my asking? And are *you* Muslim?

 

[nefarious_plot]

Iraq, Georgia is not muslim Country :rofl ..your just a bigot looking for a way too jusitfy your insane ramblings and hatred for those whom you fear.

 

[Michael Zaretski]

If we can keep this civil, I am sure I will learn a lot.

OK. :thumbup:

A lot of the things we *hate* about Islam stem from cultural influences. Honor killings, FGM.

Yes, but a lot things we hate about Islam stem from Islam itself, from its sources, the Qur’an and the Hadith.

Islam is stuck in the stage where Christianity was in the 13th century.

There is room in Islam to have a peaceful state.

Not for current Islam. Islam needs to be reformed for that to be possible.

You would know better than I, but it's the wahhabi movement that bothers me, and that falls outside the four schools of law (I don't know much about Shi'a Islam). If we could get them back on historical track, do you think it would minimize some of the violence?

The Wahhabis and the Qutbis are winning the hearts and minds of Muslims worldwide by saying a return to the original Islam will restore Islamic ascendancy. They say Islam was defeated by the West because Muslims strayed from the old way. Given the fact that the Muslims are totally averse to the idea that their problems may be their own fault, it is no wonder those movements are finding so much support in the Muslim world.

What if they did *play by the rules?*

There would be peace. Islamophobia would never exist, or if it did, would be unjustified. They would be honorable contributors to British culture, just like the Hindus are now, instead of time bombs waiting to explode.

To say you the things you say about islam its clear your no student of it.

When all else fails, use the circumstantial ad hominem argument.

I’m a student of Arabic and Islam at an Israeli university. That’s a fact. And there’s nothing about academe that says you must be postmodern in your views.

Furthmroe Us policy leads to this terrorism

On this sentence the US, and the West as a whole, stands or falls. As long as the West believes it, it will keep on losing. As long as the beaten wife blames herself for her beatings, she will never be free; her road to freedom begins when she realises that she is blameless and her husband is evil.

 

[Snoozin]

Not for current Islam. Islam needs to be reformed for that to be possible.
.

The only Muslim culture(s) I know personally is Egypt and America (DC specifically). And the *overwhelming* majority of the people I know are very peaceful, have no hatred of the US or the West in general (in fact they love America), and really just want to mind their own business. So for them, I say live and let live.

As far and the Islamists, yes, there is definitely a need to reform whatever aspects of Islam are permitting these guys to gain power within their communities.

But I just don't want to punish millions of peaceful people for the horrible sins of a few.

BTW, since you are a student of Islamic issues, do you know anything about Hamid S. Aziz and his book "The Alternative Way?"

http://www.altway.freeuk.com/

On this sentence the US, and the West as a whole, stands or falls. As long as the West believes it, it will keep on losing. As long as the beaten wife blames herself for her beatings, she will never be free; her road to freedom begins when she realises that she is blameless and her husband is evil.

Perhaps, but I do think we have some power in dealing with this problem through other-than-violent means. I believe in carrot and stick approach, not just the stick.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

On this sentence the US, and the West as a whole, stands or falls. As long as the West believes it, it will keep on losing. As long as the beaten wife blames herself for her beatings, she will never be free; her road to freedom begins when she realises that she is blameless and her husband is evil.

What would you say to the theory that maybe the East is the beaten wife fighting back?