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Why do they care?

shagg said:
It doesn't matter who actually cut the cross out of it. The state is incorporating it as a religious symbol into a public memorial.
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No you are assuming the State is incorporating it as a religious symbol. Without knowing why the person put it there it's just a guess on your part.
 
shagg said:
If the cross is just incidental and not intended as a religious symbol, why not use a beam that doesn't have a cross cut out of it? Surly it wouldn't be very difficult to obtain one that came from one of the towers.
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Do you have one lying around to offer as a substitute?
 
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Strawmen aside what i see argued quite a bit is that people say we are a christian nation/country and the fact is we are not, we are a country/nation that happens to have people in it that are primarily christian. Now if that suits your own definition than buy all means go with it but thats not the reality.

This country has TONS of religious background/history.
SOME of the fathers were probably Christians and even more had some religion and or believed in a god/creator..

But thats about it we are not a christian nation/country, never have been and never will be in the sense that some people try to argue.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
How about some quotes for you, happy reading!

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible
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I'll grant you the point that many of them were religious, most people of the times were. I see praise for christian ethics, I see calls for prayer before government meetings, I don't see anything saying they intended for the nation to be a christian nation. You are assuming its what they wanted because they praised Christianity. Many non-believers of the times also praised Christianity out of fear, fear of the social consequences and overzealous persecution by the intolerant. At this time there were still those who lived through the Salem Witch Trials walking around. An elected official would be committing political suicide by taking any other position, much like elected officials in many regions of the "Bible Belt" deep south of modern times.

Praise and prayer =/= intent to build a christian nation.
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
No you are assuming the State is incorporating it as a religious symbol. Without knowing why the person put it there it's just a guess on your part.
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I'm sorry, but is there any other way to interpret a cross on a memorial to the victims of 9-11? And is it not disrespectful to those that died and weren't christian?
 
shagg said:
I'm sorry, but is there any other way to interpret a cross on a memorial to the victims of 9-11? And is it not disrespectful to those that died and weren't christian?
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Maybe the guy who did it was a surfer. Maybe he was trying to make an Iron Cross. Maybe the cross is part of his family's crest. There could be a million reasons why the person did it but you choose to assume there is only 1 reason without even knowing who the person is who did it.
 
shagg said:
I'll grant you the point that many of them were religious, most people of the times were. I see praise for christian ethics, I see calls for prayer before government meetings, I don't see anything saying they intended for the nation to be a christian nation. You are assuming its what they wanted because they praised Christianity. Many non-believers of the times also praised Christianity out of fear, fear of the social consequences and overzealous persecution by the intolerant. At this time there were still those who lived through the Salem Witch Trials walking around. An elected official would be committing political suicide by taking any other position, much like elected officials in many regions of the "Bible Belt" deep south of modern times.

Praise and prayer =/= intent to build a christian nation.
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How about some more quotes, including from a Supreme Court Justice:

The Founders Intended A Christian, Not Secular, Society - Michael Medved - Page full
 
davidtaylorjr said:
How about some more quotes, including from a Supreme Court Justice:

The Founders Intended A Christian, Not Secular, Society - Michael Medved - Page full
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:spin:

That article makes assumptions and is horribly spun. half the examples reference a quote having to do with God not Christianity.

It is not disputed America has its roots in Christianity.

It is disputed that the founders intended to set up a christian nation, however, proving the intentions of those 200+ years dead is guess work at best. We've both provided quotes from the same people suggesting opposite things. I'm willing to call this a draw, but honestly, this is just history, and I'm sure everyone is tired of us going back and forth in circles.

It is indefensible to claim the founders intended to make sure America remained Christian, and this is what your really arguing for. They left a loophole big enough to sail the Mayflower through by granting total religious freedom among the populace. The creators of the constitution showed great foresight and allowed for governmental and social changes in a way that has allowed our nation to grow and prosper. You can't tell me they just made a mistake with religious freedom.
 
shagg said:
:spin:

That article makes assumptions and is horribly spun. half the examples reference a quote having to do with God not Christianity.

It is not disputed America has its roots in Christianity.

It is disputed that the founders intended to set up a christian nation, however, proving the intentions of those 200+ years dead is guess work at best. We've both provided quotes from the same people suggesting opposite things. I'm willing to call this a draw, but honestly, this is just history, and I'm sure everyone is tired of us going back and forth in circles.

It is indefensible to claim the founders intended to make sure America remained Christian, and this is what your really arguing for. They left a loophole big enough to sail the Mayflower through by granting total religious freedom among the populace. The creators of the constitution showed great foresight and allowed for governmental and social changes in a way that has allowed our nation to grow and prosper. You can't tell me they just made a mistake with religious freedom.
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There is your :spin: they left religious freedom with respect to denominations. Anyways, a good healthy debate.
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
Maybe the guy who did it was a surfer. Maybe he was trying to make an Iron Cross. Maybe the cross is part of his family's crest. There could be a million reasons why the person did it but you choose to assume there is only 1 reason without even knowing who the person is who did it.
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Imagine i design jewelry. One evening, inspired by some stargazing, I make a six pointed star similar to the star of david and fashion it into a necklace charm. I'm not jewish, nor was it my intention that my creation be a religious symbol. I sell it years later at a yardsale. Not to feed into stereotypes, but a jewish man who happens to be yardsaling buys it because it looks like the star of david. This man then wears the necklace constantly. Is the necklace a religious symbol to him? Would a stranger, seeing him walk out of temple with a yamaca on, think the necklace was a religious symbol? Does it matter what I intended when I made the necklace, when it is used as a religious symbol? Does it matter who made the cross and why, when it is being used as a religious symbol on a memorial to the dead?
 
shagg said:
Imagine i design jewelry. One evening, inspired by some stargazing, I make a six pointed star similar to the star of david and fashion it into a necklace charm. I'm not jewish, nor was it my intention that my creation be a religious symbol. I sell it years later at a yardsale. Not to feed into stereotypes, but a jewish man who happens to be yardsaling buys it because it looks like the star of david. This man then wears the necklace constantly. Is the necklace a religious symbol to him? Would a stranger, seeing him walk out of temple with a yamaca on, think the necklace was a religious symbol? Does it matter what I intended when I made the necklace, when it is used as a religious symbol? Does it matter who made the cross and why, when it is being used as a religious symbol on a memorial to the dead?
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So now if anyone THINKS a symbol is religious then it is so and if it is on a government property it must be removed? Well I hope the $ becomes the symbol of some religion so they can't charge me more than 0.99 cents for anything!
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
Why don't you buy a replacement beam and donate it, like the original one was donated?
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Why doesn't the state allow a church to use it to build a memorial on church property?
 
shagg said:
:spin:

That article makes assumptions and is horribly spun. half the examples reference a quote having to do with God not Christianity.

It is not disputed America has its roots in Christianity.

It is disputed that the founders intended to set up a christian nation, however, proving the intentions of those 200+ years dead is guess work at best. We've both provided quotes from the same people suggesting opposite things. I'm willing to call this a draw, but honestly, this is just history, and I'm sure everyone is tired of us going back and forth in circles.

It is indefensible to claim the founders intended to make sure America remained Christian, and this is what your really arguing for. They left a loophole big enough to sail the Mayflower through by granting total religious freedom among the populace. The creators of the constitution showed great foresight and allowed for governmental and social changes in a way that has allowed our nation to grow and prosper. You can't tell me they just made a mistake with religious freedom.
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agreed its just common sense


the only people that want others to believe the fallacy that we are a chrsitian nation are those that want to try to justify thier want to force their religious views on others. Luckily the majority of Christians like myself dont want that in any way shape or form, we understand how this country works and i thank god for that.
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
So now if anyone THINKS a symbol is religious then it is so and if it is on a government property it must be removed? Well I hope the $ becomes the symbol of some religion so they can't charge me more than 0.99 cents for anything!
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My point was the man who bought the necklace uses it as a religious symbol, and people who see it on him will see it as a religious symbol. The cross on the beam is being used as a religious symbol to honor the dead in the Cristian tradition, to argue its a secular cross on a memorial to the dead and has nothing to do with Christianity is an insult to those who died and were not Christian. What if it was an inverted Pentagram? would you buy the argument that the resemblance is coincidental and secular? Would they even consider using that beam? No, because it looks like a known reviled symbol and they don't want people interpreting it that way. The cross isn't so much reviled, but the interpretation people will make is obvious as is the implied statement it makes.
 
shagg said:
Why doesn't the state allow a church to use it to build a memorial on church property?
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You know a church that is building a memorial that needs a beam? If so send them your idea. I'm sure something could be worked out.
 
shagg said:
My point was the man who bought the necklace uses it as a religious symbol, and people who see it on him will see it as a religious symbol.
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Really? So now it's not only why a person buys it but how others assume what it means that has to be taken into account? Better not sell any of the Mari Gras beads at a yard sale. Romeone may buy them to use as rosary beads and get everyone confused!
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
Really? So now it's not only why a person buys it but how others assume what it means that has to be taken into account? Better not sell any of the Mari Gras beads at a yard sale. Romeone may buy them to use as rosary beads and get everyone confused!
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and that would be just fine, because i don't care if everyones confused, and theres no "message" using mardi gras beads as a rosary, and the state isn't involved in any of it. Again I say that the government erecting a monument on state property, for a religiously diverse group of deceased victims, with an obviously Christian symbol on it and no other religious symbols, is insulting to the non-christian victims and their families and violates the current interpretation of the 1st amendment. Either research and include symbols from all of the known victims religions, get another beam with no cross on it, or give it to a church to make a memorial on church grounds.
 
shagg said:
and that would be just fine, because i don't care if everyones confused, and theres no "message" using mardi gras beads as a rosary, and the state isn't involved in any of it. Again I say that the government erecting a monument on state property, for a religiously diverse group of deceased victims, with an obviously Christian symbol on it and no other religious symbols, is insulting to the non-christian victims and their families and violates the current interpretation of the 1st amendment. Either research and include symbols from all of the known victims religions, get another beam with no cross on it, or give it to a church to make a memorial on church grounds.
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They only way that makes sense, given what we know, is if you take it to the extreme. It insults no one, the government is not promoting anything and it is not obviously a religious symbol, it is a cross that is used in thousands of non-religious things.

Now if you were to tell me the government went to the beam boneyard and picked out that specific beam because there was a cross on it then you would have an argument and I may even agree with you. But if they just ordered a beam sent to them and the one sent had a cross on it then you can only be making an extremist argument that the government is promoting religion. They just bought a beam not a beam with a cross on it.
 
He wants to put up a pentagram. ;)
 
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