Why do so many people have to hate bush?

[Donkey1499]

That's what you consider a valid rebuttal. Label it, nuff said. Labelling things is just a way to avoid discussing the issues.

This is how you do it if your a cunning linguist. The tyrannt we were fighting, is not a tyrannt anymore. We are now fighting average Iraqis that are objecting to the occupation of their country by a foreign power. Besides, this arguement doesn't wash anyway. The reasons for attacking have changed several times. DSM showed the reasons were moot anyway.

But the biggest reason this tyrannt-slayer dogma is bullshit, is because of all the evil tyrannts, terrorists and insurgents that we have had on our payroll over the years. As in our destablizing democratic regimes in Nicaraugau, El Salvador and Chile. We take out Hussein, but keep Samoza and the Shah. Yeah, right!

Well, the terrorists, which are a bigger threat to us than Chile or the others, mostly hail from the middle east. So we're cleaning up the trash over there first.

And contrary to your belief, most Iraqis want us there until their military is strong enough. Where the Hell do you get your "facts"? MoveOn.org? And the Iraqi elections took place and this one woman pretty much said that those who don't like Bush or America can burn in Hell. And, most of the pictures I see, the Iraqis are smiling. You don't hate someone, then smile at em'.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
But you said WE are fighting an ILLEGAL WAR. So wouldn't that make the people fighting in it criminals? You are saying, without really saying it, that our troops are criminals because they are fighting an ILLEGAL WAR.
You're also saying that the people who put them there are criminals. So that means the Bush Admin., The Senate, and the House (including your beloved democrats) are all criminals? Including the millions of Americans who support the ILLEGAL WAR? You're logic is twisted, dude.

Now, now, don't put words in my mouth and try to choreograph my side of the arguement. I've stated what I thought of the troops. You'll have to accept the fact that that's what I think. But your right about my opinion regarding the people that put them there. As far as me being a twisted dude, your probably right about that too. But I do have a twisted sister (who's a conservative). That's probably why she doesn't return my calls.

 

[Donkey1499]

Now, now, don't put words in my mouth and try to choreograph my side of the arguement. I've stated what I thought of the troops. You'll have to accept the fact that that's what I think. But your right about my opinion regarding the people that put them there. As far as me being a twisted dude, your probably right about that too. But I do have a twisted sister (who's a conservative). That's probably why she doesn't return my calls.

Hey, you did say that the War in Iraq is Illegal. And if you participate in something illegal, then you're a criminal. And the troops are fighting in "Bush's Illegal War", so thus that would make them criminals.

I don't mean to butt in, butt you and your sister need to put polliticks aside and remember that you're siblings first, then democrat/republican; or whatever.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
Well, the terrorists, which are a bigger threat to us than Chile or the others, mostly hail from the middle east. So we're cleaning up the trash over there first.

You got that backwards regarding Chile. We were the threat to them. We were their terrorists.

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
And contrary to your belief, most Iraqis want us there until their military is strong enough.

Yeah, but their Kurds. What about the other tribes?

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
Where the Hell do you get your "facts"? MoveOn.org?

Ask Gunny. He seems to know that more than I.

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
And the Iraqi elections took place and this one woman pretty much said that those who don't like Bush or America can burn in Hell.

Are you sure she didn't say, "...those who don't like Bush or America have burned like hell." I mean, afterall, we napalmed the sh_t out of Falluja with WP.

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
And, most of the pictures I see, the Iraqis are smiling. You don't hate someone, then smile at em'.

And you don't see a population putting up with two years of bombs in there neighborhoods, citizens getting shot at check points, having 60,000 of their countryman incarcerated without charges, having many innocent civilians killed or tortured, like the father who's 15 year old son was tortured in front of his eyes at Abu Grhaib to force him to talk, and then after all this turn around and say, "Thank you America, for bringing every terrorist in the world to our country. We are eternally grateful."

 

[Donkey1499]

You got that backwards regarding Chile. We were the threat to them. We were their terrorists.

Yeah, but their Kurds. What about the other tribes?

Ask Gunny. He seems to know that more than I.

Are you sure she didn't say, "...those who don't like Bush or America have burned like hell." I mean, afterall, we napalmed the sh_t out of Falluja with WP.

And you don't see a population putting up with two years of bombs in there neighborhoods, citizens getting shot at check points, having 60,000 of their countryman incarcerated without charges, having many innocent civilians killed or tortured, like the father who's 15 year old son was tortured in front of his eyes at Abu Grhaib to force him to talk, and then after all this turn around and say, "Thank you America, for bringing every terrorist in the world to our country. We are eternally grateful."

Do you have any proof of this bull crap?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
Hey, you did say that the War in Iraq is Illegal. And if you participate in something illegal, then you're a criminal. And the troops are fighting in "Bush's Illegal War", so thus that would make them criminals.

That's your definition, not mine.

Originally posted by Donkey1499:
I don't mean to butt in, butt you and your sister need to put polliticks aside and remember that you're siblings first, then democrat/republican; or whatever

F_ck her! I'm still p!ssed off that my mother loans money to me, but gives it to her. She's a doctor, married to a lawyer, making over 100k a year, but I got to pay it back! And everytime I try to bring the subject up with mom, she just says, "Leave her alone, she's your baby sister!" Go figure.

 

[Donkey1499]

That's your definition, not mine.

F_ck her! I'm still p!ssed off that my mother loans money to me, but gives it to her. She's a doctor, married to a lawyer, making over 100k a year, but I got to pay it back! And everytime I try to bring the subject up with mom, she just says, "Leave her alone, she's your baby sister!" Go figure.

Oh, the whole "baby sibling" thing. Gotcha. I know what you mean. Except I"m the younger one, and my brother gets away with everything. I tell my parents that I was probably an accident, but they deny it,; although I do wonder sometimes.

But when you say the war is illegal, it makes me think that what you mean is what I explained. But whatever.

 

[Binary_Digit]

BD,

IIRC, that comment was in Zawahiri's letter to Zarqawi from a couple of months ago. He said,

he first stage: Expel the Americans from Iraq.
The second stage: Establish an Islamic authority or amirate, then develop it and support it until it achieves the level of a caliphate- over as much territory as you can to spread its power in Iraq, i.e., in Sunni areas, is in order to fill the void stemming from the departure of the Americans, immediately upon their exit and before un-Islamic forces attempt to fill this void, whether those whom the Americans will leave behind them, or those among the un-Islamic forces who will try to jump at taking power.

There is no doubt that this amirate will enter into a fierce struggle with the foreign infidel forces, and those supporting them among the local forces, to put it in a state of constant preoccupation with defending itself, to make it impossible for it to establish a stable state which could proclaim a caliphate, and to keep the Jihadist groups in a constant state of war, until these forces find a chance to annihilate them.

The third stage: Extend the jihad wave to the secular countries neighboring Iraq. The fourth stage: It may coincide with what came before: the clash with Israel, because Israel was established only to challenge any new Islamic entity.

In speaking about the sought-after caliphate, Zawahiri said,

It has always
been my belief that the victory of Islam will never take place until a Muslim state is established in the manner of the Prophet in the heart of the Islamic world, specifically in the Levant, Egypt, and the neighboring states of the Peninsula and Iraq; however, the center would be in the Levant and Egypt.

Source.

Ah, thanks! But I don't yet understand how that supports this:

U.S. intervention in Iraq was unrelated to the war on terror.

Zawahiri, the #2 man in al-Qaeda said Iraq was the center of their struggle against America.

He called Iraq the "heart of the Islamic world" but never the center of their struggle against America. Based on that letter, even today Iraq is a short-term goal, apparently pushed to the front by our invasion and the fall of Hussein:

"If we look at the two short-term goals, which are removing the Americans and establishing an Islamic amirate in Iraq, or a caliphate if possible, then, we will see that the strongest weapon which the mujahedeen enjoy...is popular support from the Muslim masses in Iraq, and the surrounding Muslim countries."

It seems to me that Iraq was on their list of ambitions because it's not an Islamic state, but it didn't really become the "center of their struggle against America" until after we invaded. Also given that Hussein's Iraq was a secular government, this also seems to further discredit the "collabroative ties" between pre-war Iraq and al'Qaeda, doesn't it?

 

[The Real McCoy]

He called Iraq the "heart of the Islamic world" but never the center of their struggle against America.

He may not have said it in those exact words but how else do you interpret that?

Based on that letter, even today Iraq is a short-term goal, apparently pushed to the front by our invasion and the fall of Hussein:

"If we look at the two short-term goals, which are removing the Americans and establishing an Islamic amirate in Iraq, or a caliphate if possible, then, we will see that the strongest weapon which the mujahedeen enjoy...is popular support from the Muslim masses in Iraq, and the surrounding Muslim countries."

Exactly. Which is why Iraq is the center in their struggle against America. Their primary goal at the moment is getting us out.

It seems to me that Iraq was on their list of ambitions because it's not an Islamic state, but it didn't really become the "center of their struggle against America" until after we invaded.

Right, but now it is.

Also given that Hussein's Iraq was a secular government, this also seems to further discredit the "collabroative ties" between pre-war Iraq and al'Qaeda, doesn't it?

Irrelevant. Whether or not Iraq under Hussein had al-Qaeda ties is completely irrelevant. al-Qaeda is there NOW. This is FACT.

 

[oldreliable67]

BD,

If you read bin Laden's fatwa, it is almost entirely couched in terms of Iraq. And recall that it was written in 1998, after the Gulf War I but before today's Iraq. Hence, "the center of the struggle" is a reasonable conclusion.