• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

hipsterdufus said:
That's an oxymoron.

Another observed empirical fact is that you're not certain what an "oxymoron" is.

hipsterdufus said:
I would argue that educators combined with the family have the responsibilty to raise children.

No. Raising the child is the parent's responsibility. Teaching the child is a job an outsider is paid to do. A teacher can quit. A parent can't.

hipsterdufus said:
Sure schools play a big part in fighting obesity. When you have Pepsi-Coke donating money to schools in exchange for providing exclusive rights to sell their products at schools, it's the school's problem. I have a better solution. How about properly funding the education ofd the future of America?

Oh, because the school administrator's pander their student body to commercial interests means that the taxpayers should pay more money, again? Why is it that with every problem in the schools, the answer is always "more money"?

hipsterdufus said:
Can we say that about Iraq too? or the war on terror? "Throwing money at the problem" is an argument to use when you don't have an argument.

If I was dumb enough to chase your non sequitur, we could. As it is, your comment is yet another empirical datum defining your inability to defend your position.

hipsterdufus said:
Ted's bill sucks - not funding it makes it even worse.

See? More money, again.

hipsterdufus said:
My school does a great job of teaching writing and literature - Time Machine is in the curriculum. It's not my subject , though. I did read Time Machine when I was a kid. Couldn't pull up the reference.

I wasn't talking about your school in that comment, it was directed at you, personally.

hipsterdufus said:
Of course I understand the importance of knowing pertinent information. Eloi came and went a long time ago. The rote memorisation of useless facts is pointless in today's society. In the information age, data is being produced far faster than we can assimilate it.

And yet you yourself proved conclusively that not having it in memory was the same as not having it at all.

Also, the fact that this discussion is taking place indicates that what you thought of as a "useless" fact, is actually quite useful.

hipsterdufus said:
I have nothing against literature. I'm an avid reader and have a Masters in Music Education. NCLB does nothing to promote the study of literature, the Arts, or History. I'm more interested in students understanding the concepts behind the novels, than trivial details, that's all I'm trying to say.

See? There you go again. The conflict between the Eloi and the Morlocks WAS the key concept behind the novel "The Time Machine", since it was actually a commentary on Wells's present society.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Another observed empirical fact is that you're not certain what an "oxymoron" is.
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oxymoron

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
No. Raising the child is the parent's responsibility. Teaching the child is a job an outsider is paid to do. A teacher can quit. A parent can't.
Parent's quit all the time. You know that.


Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Oh, because the school administrator's pander their student body to commercial interests means that the taxpayers should pay more money, again? Why is it that with every problem in the schools, the answer is always "more money"?

Because in many cases money, or the lack therof, is a big part of the solution my friend.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
If I was dumb enough to chase your non sequitur, we could. As it is, your comment is yet another empirical datum defining your inability to defend your position.

See above


Scarecrow Akhbar said:
See? More money, again.

ibid


Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I wasn't talking about your school in that comment, it was directed at you, personally.

And yet you yourself proved conclusively that not having it in memory was the same as not having it at all.

Also, the fact that this discussion is taking place indicates that what you thought of as a "useless" fact, is actually quite useful.

See? There you go again. The conflict between the Eloi and the Morlocks WAS the key concept behind the novel "The Time Machine", since it was actually a commentary on Wells's present society.

That was my point, because in my day, teachers had us learn a lot of useless trivia about novels, they could turn the greatest literature into a mundane fact finding activity.

I don't claim to be knowledable about H.G. Wells, nor do I think that being knowledgeable about HG Well's Time Machine is the only path to enlightenment.

If you were talking about John Dewey, Howard Gardner, Daniel Goleman,,Eric Jensen or any other great mind educational theory, and I knew nothing about what you were talking about, that would be a different story.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Food for thought: I may not be able to discuss HG Wells, as I did not read his books and they were not part of the curriculum, however, I do speak several speeches that allows me to, amongst other things, read you talking about HG Wells and his time machine.

And, if I were to declare that this board is as a tree, screaming, io fei giubetto a me de le mie case, would you know what I meant? Would you know that Dante used that line in his 13th Canto of Inferno as a metaphor for Florence fighting itself, committing suicide, and thus landing into Inferno?

If you were talking about John Dewey, Howard Gardner, Daniel Goleman,,Eric Jensen or any other great mind educational theory, and I knew nothing about what you were talking about, that would be a different story.

Why did you leave Freud out? :p

Mr U
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

HU-210 said:
Food for thought: I may not be able to discuss HG Wells, as I did not read his books and they were not part of the curriculum, however, I do speak several speeches that allows me to, amongst other things, read you talking about HG Wells and his time machine.

And, if I were to declare that this board is as a tree, screaming, io fei giubetto a me de le mie case, would you know what I meant? Would you know that Dante used that line in his 13th Canto of Inferno as a metaphor for Florence fighting itself, committing suicide, and thus landing into Inferno?



Why did you leave Freud out? :p

Mr U

Personally, I found Dante to be a bore, for what it's worth, which is nothing. Nor am I impressed with your gabbling in gibberish. Since you're holding a discussion in english, the only point you're making with that noise is that you've managed to impress yourself. That may be a big accomplishment, I don't know.

But you should direct your post at the person claiming facts were "useless". I don't pretend to have read every book, mastered every science, or climbed every mountain.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Personally, I found Dante to be a bore

Yea, I admit I'm not a linguist or scholar or what have you, but Dante's Infero seems like poetic babbling to me.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
There's two reasons why the US is falling to the bottom in world education:

1) Most teachers are dumber than the average population. Why a person thinking third grade level science is difficult would be permitted anywhere near the education of children at any level is a mystery.

2) The curriculum is driven by politics, with the children's minds tugged and pulled in all directions, at the whim of special interests. The parents should be demanding an intelligent syllabus that will lead their child to competency in the fields of knowledge they'll need to be successful in the future.

I'll add a few more if you don't mind:

3) Hiring fresh college graduates has become very popular in public schools because the schools can give them a smaller salary than that of an experianced teacher. The disadvantage to this is that these graduates are not experianced and are not as knowledgeable in the subject they teach as an experianced teacher with a higher degree. The schools' attempt to save money and take shortcuts almost always decreases the quality of education.

4) Many teachers do not renew their teaching liscence which decreases the quality of education they can provide because it puts their teaching practices into question and sheds light on the risk of them presenting flawed and outdated information as fact.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

HU-210 said:
Why did you leave Freud out? :p

Mr U

Sure, you could put Freud on the list, with a host of others.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I'll add a few more if you don't mind:

3) Hiring fresh college graduates has become very popular in public schools because the schools can give them a smaller salary than that of an experianced teacher. The disadvantage to this is that these graduates are not experianced and are not as knowledgeable in the subject they teach as an experianced teacher with a higher degree. The schools' attempt to save money and take shortcuts almost always decreases the quality of education.

4) Many teachers do not renew their teaching liscence which decreases the quality of education they can provide because it puts their teaching practices into question and sheds light on the risk of them presenting flawed and outdated information as fact.

Two good points.

At least in my state - PA - you can't keep teaching in public schools without continuing your education in the field for "x" number of hours or college credits.This leads to periodic recertification. I've never checked into how other states do this but I think it's a great idea.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

hipsterdufus said:
Two good points.

At least in my state - PA - you can't keep teaching in public schools without continuing your education in the field for "x" number of hours or college credits.This leads to periodic recertification. I've never checked into how other states do this but I think it's a great idea.

This is certainly a good idea. in IL this continuing education plan is applied to a host of other professions as well. Beauticians. massage, reflexology etc etc. The only problem is it also leads to many "fly-by-night" type schools because the state is not often careful about who it certifies as a continuing education facility and there have been a few cases of "kickbacks" but basically, if the state is conscientious, it is an excellent idea.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
If you are self-admittedly ignorant about science, how are you in any position to claim what science can and cannot explain?

As someone who is not ignorant about science, let me tell you that science can easily explain all of those things in very simple, common-sense ways.

And, you also do not know what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory is different from what we usually refer to as a theory. It does not mean something that is "unproven" or "just a guess" - in reality it is a much stronger statement.

O.k. I'm in no position to claim what science can or cannot explain. I have some researching to do. The Big Bang, Evolution etc. I'll be busy reading.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Vandeervecken said:
What evidecne would that be? Please be specific.

The bible, Jesus, and that this complex world couldn't of been an accident, a big bang if you will, however enigmo mentioned that this may be explained very simply, so I'll check out the big bang theory.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

realist said:
The bible, Jesus,

Neither of which are evidence. The Bible only has significance if you first believe in it.

realist said:
and that this complex world couldn't of been an accident,

A simple argument from incredulity. Something that I personally think is the height of arrogance. You are effectively saying that since you can't see how it happened, it must have been done by a god.

realist said:
a big bang if you will, however enigmo mentioned that this may be explained very simply, so I'll check out the big bang theory.

Here's a good site to start with, it gives a basic overview without getting too technical. http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

realist said:
The bible, Jesus, and that this complex world couldn't of been an accident, a big bang if you will, however enigmo mentioned that this may be explained very simply, so I'll check out the big bang theory.

The bible... nah... no accident.....

Jesus.......no comment.

but there are so many things in the bible that are metaphors.... who is to say the story of creation isn't a metaphor as well?
 
Bible literacy is a joke anyway. It is so full of contradictions as to be amusing and meaningless.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

hipsterdufus said:
At least in my state - PA - you can't keep teaching in public schools without continuing your education in the field for "x" number of hours or college credits.This leads to periodic recertification. I've never checked into how other states do this but I think it's a great idea.

In my state, Ohio, the department of education requires teachers who wish to to renew their certification every 5 years, at the discretion of the employeer and the educator, but also issues permanent teaching lisences. This is where the problem lies..the educator can obtain a permanent lisence which completely absolves them of any official responsibility to learn new techniques and updated information in the subject(s) they teach. My highschool got around this by creating a provision in their contracts which stated that teachers must attend seminars, meetings, and renew their certification every 5 years to improve the quality of education. As far as I'm aware, none of the teachers had permanent lisences..only the substitutes and more often than not the school used other teachers to sub instead of hiring a temporary substitute.
 
Vandeervecken said:
Bible literacy is a joke anyway.

I'm an atheist, I assume you are too, I would think it would be right to know what you are bashing.

It is so full of contradictions as to be amusing and meaningless.

Yes, that's why I enjoy reading it, it's a good laugh. There is nothing like a good thorough reading of the bible to come to the conclusion that Christianity is not only bullshit, but barbaric bullshit at that.:lol:
 
kal-el said:
I'm an atheist, I assume you are too, I would think it would be right to know what you are bashing.

Of course one should always know their enemy. BTW you are correct, I am a tacit atheist.


kal-el said:
Yes, that's why I enjoy reading it, it's a good laugh. There is nothing like a good thorough reading of the bible to come to the conclusion that Christianity is not only bullshit, but barbaric bullshit at that.:lol:

I could not possibly agree with your assessment any more than I do.
 
leejosepho said:
My own response to that is usually to agree with the “history of religions” part, and to then point out that “religions” come merely from men, and not from “God”.



Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.



Whoa! Why is that? To me, that is quite illogical and void of intellectual honesty. If it cannot be proven that something does *not* exist, then how could it be proven (or how could someone sanely/rightly/fairly demand it be proven) something does?



Agreed ...



To me, that would be commendable, as they are referencing a higher authority to decide the matter in the first place.



Actually, it is neither. Rather, it is a simple report.



With opinion and even “God” aside, what facts would be required to convince people that abortion and deviant sex are wrong?

Or, if preferred: What facts might anyone have to convince others otherwise?

Just curious here; can I have some private time on that GOD Phone you and Pat have been keeping back from the public. By just implying you have to rely on your God to make your points in a argument is wrong. It is fine if you do not mind going that route, I have always enjoyed watching the faithful not know they have falsified their own falsifier.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

steen said:
And you know this because you are ignorant of science, right? What a silly claim.

And yes, science has found evidence in these areas and have been able to generate explanations. So your ignorant claim is also false. I would suggest that instead of making false claims per ignorance, that you start learning the stuff you are trying to debate so you show an inkling of knowing what you are talking about.
NOT a**%$#%**gain!!!
Please read up on the Scientific Method and on what a Scientific Theory is.

WHY:roll: Why is it that creationists are always eager to show their incredible ignorance even of the very most basic parts of science?
So at all talking about evidence would be dishonest and hypocritical, right; it would be bearing false witness.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm Check this out, as it shows evidence of intelligent design. The premise in a nutshell is: Is DNA a molecule or is it a code/language.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

realist said:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm Check this out, as it shows evidence of intelligent design. The premise in a nutshell is: Is DNA a molecule or is it a code/language.

I can answer that: It's a molecule. There is no "code" or "language". The way that it works is determined entirely by its physical properties.
 
Just an FYI - the new Mother Jones is a must read for anyone interested in knowing what the religious right is doing these days. It's a special issue devoted to the issue. A great read from cover to cover.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
I can answer that: It's a molecule. There is no "code" or "language". The way that it works is determined entirely by its physical properties.
correction, scientists have determined that the four molecules in the center of the double helix act as letters to the DNA. DNA is like a huge cookbook in the cell. each string of molecules on the DNA "backbone" (the double helix strands) has a recipe to create a different protein. the RNA is brought to the DNA, where it obtains a certain recipe from the DNA using a process that biochemists have yet to figure out completely, and then it goes to a ribozome, where the protein is "cooked". it is then sent to the specific section of the cell using a "key card" that is designed to let them into only the section of the cell where the protein is needed. these are all earmarks of design. remove one thing and the whole process falls apart, remove the "key card" molecules and the protein can't get to where it is needed. remove the RNA and the recipe won't be gotten out of the DNA. this is a perfect example of a process that is irreducibly complex. you remove one part, and the whole thing falls apart. they used John Conway's game of life (which is really a scientific tool, released out to the public because of the way it works.) to disprove several theories of science, including one where they thought one could not replicate something chemically without disturbing it. well, you have some combinations that won't work without every piece. remove one cell, and the whole thingv falls apart. the guns, most of the oscillators, and the ships are all like that. if you remove one piece of either, it all falls apart. and you can't form anything past a three period "pulsar" oscillator in complexity while everything is reacting.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

dthmstr254 said:
correction, scientists have determined that the four molecules in the center of the double helix act as letters to the DNA. DNA is like a huge cookbook in the cell. each string of molecules on the DNA "backbone" (the double helix strands) has a recipe to create a different protein. the RNA is brought to the DNA, where it obtains a certain recipe from the DNA using a process that biochemists have yet to figure out completely, and then it goes to a ribozome, where the protein is "cooked". it is then sent to the specific section of the cell using a "key card" that is designed to let them into only the section of the cell where the protein is needed. these are all earmarks of design. remove one thing and the whole process falls apart, remove the "key card" molecules and the protein can't get to where it is needed. remove the RNA and the recipe won't be gotten out of the DNA. this is a perfect example of a process that is irreducibly complex. you remove one part, and the whole thing falls apart. they used John Conway's game of life (which is really a scientific tool, released out to the public because of the way it works.) to disprove several theories of science, including one where they thought one could not replicate something chemically without disturbing it. well, you have some combinations that won't work without every piece. remove one cell, and the whole thingv falls apart. the guns, most of the oscillators, and the ships are all like that. if you remove one piece of either, it all falls apart. and you can't form anything past a three period "pulsar" oscillator in complexity while everything is reacting.

There are too many problems with this post for me to even begin to get into - I honestly don't have the energy to refute it point by point. Let me just give you the blanket statement that pretty much everything that you think you know about DNA and Evolution is entirely wrong.
 
Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
There are too many problems with this post for me to even begin to get into - I honestly don't have the energy to refute it point by point. Let me just give you the blanket statement that pretty much everything that you think you know about DNA and Evolution is entirely wrong.
you know, I hate assumptions, this is all based on facts from SCIENCE and Scientific American. you might want to look up what the letters are. you haven't put up any evidence, so either put up, or shut up.
 
Back
Top Bottom