Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Uh...I was Kidding Pal....But, WOW....Just Freakin Wow. You really are very into this God fellow....I think I'm just gonna , walk away....yeah....uh...



HEY, Is That A Unicorn.....



*slips away....far far away*

you gotta know Him to believe Him, now don't ya?

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

you gotta know Him to believe Him, now don't ya?

Well now....this IS the crux of the whole thing....isnt it. Would it suprise you to hear that I have read four versions of the Bible, and continue to read the King James (By far the most entertaining). Would it also come as a suprise that I spent my youth at a Catholic School, then studied Methodist teachings for Seven Years, Followed by in depth study of the Jehovah faith (Brother was indoctinated). Might it be shocking to know that I was dissapointed in the teachings, and this interpretaion of "God" and so looked further into spirituality, to the eastern myths (very enlightening, particularly when studied alongside Quantum theory).
Simply Put ....I think I know God, likely better than you do, as far as the scripture. Because I have a different understanding of this entity than you seem to (everyone knows a different God, this is simple reality) I do not feel the need, or the ability, to condemn anyone to hell.....you may want to read up a bit on judgement. To be completely Honest, I have spent many years, perhaps more than you have walked this earth, dealing with my own spiritual growth, and no longer feel the need to justify my beliefs to strict followers of the teachings of Christ. Lets face fact....the likelyhood that what we read in the Bible(s) having much resemblance to the old texts id minimal at best...as can be seen by comparing to the scrolls.
So in a nut shell (pun intended), please feel free to make up anything you want, based on the stories man created in those books. For one....watching you attempt to use science is wicked entertaining. Secondly, I would love to add your comments in this thread (Edited, and with your permission) to a Psych study I am hoping to finish before I die.
Be at Peace , Happy Pilgrim

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Well now....this IS the crux of the whole thing....isnt it. Would it suprise you to hear that I have read four versions of the Bible, and continue to read the King James (By far the most entertaining). Would it also come as a suprise that I spent my youth at a Catholic School, then studied Methodist teachings for Seven Years, Followed by in depth study of the Jehovah faith (Brother was indoctinated). Might it be shocking to know that I was dissapointed in the teachings, and this interpretaion of "God" and so looked further into spirituality, to the eastern myths (very enlightening, particularly when studied alongside Quantum theory).
Simply Put ....I think I know God, likely better than you do, as far as the scripture. Because I have a different understanding of this entity than you seem to (everyone knows a different God, this is simple reality) I do not feel the need, or the ability, to condemn anyone to hell.....you may want to read up a bit on judgement. To be completely Honest, I have spent many years, perhaps more than you have walked this earth, dealing with my own spiritual growth, and no longer feel the need to justify my beliefs to strict followers of the teachings of Christ. Lets face fact....the likelyhood that what we read in the Bible(s) having much resemblance to the old texts id minimal at best...as can be seen by comparing to the scrolls.
So in a nut shell (pun intended), please feel free to make up anything you want, based on the stories man created in those books. For one....watching you attempt to use science is wicked entertaining. Secondly, I would love to add your comments in this thread (Edited, and with your permission) to a Psych study I am hoping to finish before I die.
Be at Peace , Happy Pilgrim

since you seem to be so interested in studying the different Christian faiths, I would like to propose something. my proposal is this: come to Tennessee Temple University and ask to debate publicly with the president and staff of my university. here is a tip, you might want to spend some time at the church on campus, Highland Park Baptist Church, and query some of the staff, to get some background information on what we believe. I can provide him with some tough questions of your evolutionary beliefs (if you have them), so I suggest you come prepared for the toughest questions of your life. the president himself has debated on several prominent Alabama universities and the universities nearby Liberty University, and won. this seem a little tough? you probably should come some time in the spring semester, as the staff is busy working on filling out accreditation paper with SACS. Dr Lovett has promised regional accreditation with them within the time I will be here. good luck!

 

[Howard Beale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

since you seem to be so interested in studying the different Christian faiths, I would like to propose something. my proposal is this: come to Tennessee Temple University and ask to debate publicly with the president and staff of my university. here is a tip, you might want to spend some time at the church on campus, Highland Park Baptist Church, and query some of the staff, to get some background information on what we believe. I can provide him with some tough questions of your evolutionary beliefs (if you have them), so I suggest you come prepared for the toughest questions of your life. the president himself has debated on several prominent Alabama universities and the universities nearby Liberty University, and won. this seem a little tough? you probably should come some time in the spring semester, as the staff is busy working on filling out accreditation paper with SACS. Dr Lovett has promised regional accreditation with them within the time I will be here. good luck!

This seems like a huge copout. Why not pose those “toughest questions of your life” here? It would make for some stimulating exchanges.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

since you seem to be so interested in studying the different Christian faiths, I would like to propose something. my proposal is this: come to Tennessee Temple University and ask to debate publicly with the president and staff of my university. here is a tip, you might want to spend some time at the church on campus, Highland Park Baptist Church, and query some of the staff, to get some background information on what we believe. I can provide him with some tough questions of your evolutionary beliefs (if you have them), so I suggest you come prepared for the toughest questions of your life. the president himself has debated on several prominent Alabama universities and the universities nearby Liberty University, and won. this seem a little tough? you probably should come some time in the spring semester, as the staff is busy working on filling out accreditation paper with SACS. Dr Lovett has promised regional accreditation with them within the time I will be here. good luck!

I have two questions. Can you explain how god is all-powerful and controls everything yet humans have free will (it's a zero sum gain). Also, if god is all powerful and great, how did an angel show human traits and yet become his near equal (satan)?

 

[Howard Beale]

IT2002:

First, hope you don’t mind the abbreviation of your name – if you do, let me know.

I have two questions. Can you explain how god is all-powerful and controls everything yet humans have free will (it's a zero sum gain).

There is a saying that God created man in his won image and likeness and man returned the favor. The problem is that we have all (becaseu of our training) personify God. God is more like gravity. Gravity has no human brain, but if you don’t abide by the laws of gravity, you will fall and if from a high enough place you will die. That is what God’s omniscience really is.

Also, if god is all powerful and great, how did an angel show human traits and yet become his near equal (satan)?

That’s a poop-O story.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

all that would be needed to force water from an underground river is an earthquake to cause a cavein, right? what I meant by from the earth was underground.

If the water came from inside the earth itself, then the water level would be exactly the same as it was BEFORE this massive cavein.

you know, you have some very elementary questions and don't seem to like the answer. I am tired of your circular reasoning, get to the point please.

You're right, my questions are very elementary, because the most elementary geology/physics are all that is needed to prove how stupid the idea of a Great Flood is. Since you acknowledge that they are elementary, one wonders why you can't provide a better explanation...perhaps an explanation that actually makes sense?

 

[Thorgasm]

IT2002:

God is more like gravity. Gravity has no human brain, but if you don’t abide by the laws of gravity, you will fall and if from a high enough place you will die.

Actually, if you don't abide by the laws of gravity, you will float into outer space. Falling is actually abiding by the law of gravity. So what was your point?

 

[Howard Beale]

IT2002

Actually, if you don't abide by the laws of gravity, you will float into outer space. Falling is actually abiding by the law of gravity. So what was your point?

No, that would happen if there were no gravity. The law of gravity states that every object attracts every other object with a force proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the separation between the two objects. If you walk off the roof of your house you will fall. Am I predicting the future? You could say that, but in truth I am simply aware of the consequences of the law of gravity.

Gravity is “omniscient” in that it “knows” what will happen. If you throw a ball up, it will come down. If you drop a penny it will fall to the ground. The problem is that gravity can’t “know” anything. It does not possess a brain. It operates outside the realm of intelligence.

I am suggesting that perhaps “God” exists outside the realm of human conceptualization.

I was addressing a specific question you raised

Can you explain how god is all-powerful and controls everything yet humans have free will (it's a zero sum gain).

Gravity “controls” everything in that everything lives within the laws of gravity and it is pretty powerful and yet we have a free will as to how we live within its laws. We can walk off the roof if we choose, or we can fly in an airplane. If we personified gravity we might say that it punishes us for walking off the roof and we might say it is omniscient because it knew we were going to fall. But gravity doesn’t have the capability of knowing in the human sense, it “knows” in a sense beyond intellect.

 

[Thinker]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

CH4 is not a carbon isotope. it has carbon, but the carbon is connected chemically to four hydrogen atoms. this gives it a state similar to that of the noble gasses, making it a perfectly sound process, and ridding the fossil of a lot of carbons, isotope or not. remember that an atom's isotope number is determined by its nucleus, and does not effect the electrons in any way. this makes the process happen to ALL isotopes. count the atoms, bring into consideration that the end result is a pair of noble state molecules, ignore the irrelevant factors such as isotope numbers and you get the same results as what I have explained. a lower ratio of ALL carbon isotopes is created. and it just so happens that that is what they base the age of the earth on, carbon dating of fossils. your textbooks gloss that over by saying that there were other methods used. however, these methods are neither shown, and the results are never reported. this casts a measurable shade of doubt upon evolution's dating mechanisms.

This is gibberish! I suggest you take (and pass) elementary courses in both
Physics and Chemistry before you make up more nonsense like this.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

This is gibberish! I suggest you take (and pass) elementary courses in both
Physics and Chemistry before you make up more nonsense like this.

took them, loved them, aced them.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

If the water came from inside the earth itself, then the water level would be exactly the same as it was BEFORE this massive cavein.

not true. what happens if you drop a lot of sand into a hole at the beach that had water in it? the sand will displace the water and therefore the water goes up. you should try it one day.

You're right, my questions are very elementary, because the most elementary geology/physics are all that is needed to prove how stupid the idea of a Great Flood is. Since you acknowledge that they are elementary, one wonders why you can't provide a better explanation...perhaps an explanation that actually makes sense?

same for evolution. I will post the reasons for this in my next post.

 

[walrus]

I think the most common answear to your question is "it's a defense mechanism." Atheist don't go around stating your immoral simple because your a christian as christians call atheists evil by definition.

I don't know very many Christians who would call atheists evil. I have no doubt there are some, but there are misguided people in every belief system. I may wish atheists believed differently, but beliefs are not evil - only actions. An atheist can be a moral, upstanding person and a Christian can be a depraved lunatic.

Frankly I believe this leads to a very valid argument as to why religion is just a control mechanism, but that is neither here nor now.

So are government and public education, but that is also neither here nor there.

My point here is that atheism is a strike against you in the eyes of a theist. You simply have to defend yourself and let others know you are their equal even if you don't believe the way they do.

Well said.

My only problem with atheists/agnostics is their frequent hypocrisy in one particular area. No one screams louder than an atheist when approached by a (usually well meaning) believer who tries to convert them (also known as changing one's mind). However, most atheists I know waste no opportunity to tell believers just how wrong they are for their beliefs. Is the hypocrisy not absolutely glaring? Atheists deride believers because some believers have told them they await a fiery post-death reception party and this (understandably so) offends them. Many atheists, however, see nothing wrong or offensive in telling believers that they are weak-willed and feeble-minded sheep. Between being told that you are destined for a plane of punishment in which you claim not to believe and being told you are an ignorant follower of myth - which would you find more offensive?

My other problem (and one which is not very common) is the atheist who actually goes out of his way to offend believers. Here is a minor example - I am reading a thread entitled "Jesus was black". A couple of people have taken the time to post such utterly irrelevant comments such as "Jesus is a Jewish myth and didn't exist". This is a person who has gone out of their way to offend people. The topic in no way questions the existence of a human Jesus, and I would assume it's author was expecting commentary from people who did believe He existed. People are certainly free to express their opinions in any way, but I wish these tolerant, open-minded, secular humanists would extend their tolerance to include people who actually believe differently than they do.

 

[dthmstr254]

We have skin like an animal. We have a heart and blood vessels. We have a brain, with eyes, ears, tastebuds, nose, etc. Don't animals and humans share these same characteristics? So thus we are animals. Remember, we "supposedly" came from "apes".

yeah, and Java man and all that. that debate should be left where it is currently happening, under "why do atheists have such a problem with religion" thread. I can easily take apart every bastion of the belief in evolution. just watch me do so, I will take you through the incompleteness of the fossil record, and the fact that things such as the "biological big bang" or "Cambrian explosion" disprove the theory that we are the result of random minor mutations. shoot, the biological big bang supports the Creationist theory more than anything else.and just because we share 98% of an apes genes, that proves nothing. in fact the genes that determine the body type and build are the same as ours. why are they so easily distinguishable from us? shouldnt they be built like us. the hair growth genes are the same as ours, why do they sprout their hair all over, in both genders, while we are so unhairy? the only different genes are the brain capacity genes and the organ size genes. this proves in no way that we evolved from apes. and the fossil we call the java man is just a collection of a femur, a piece of the skull cap, and a few teeth. they built the rest. this is considered a travesty to true science. you think we should cover all our scientific bases in creationism, but you won't cover all of yours? in addition, you believe in lies when you use Haeckel's embryos to support evolution. only 20 years later a team of scientists proved that Haeckel doctored his drawings to make them look similar. and the thought that those animals were in the early stages of embryotic development is laughable. the same team proved that they were past the halfway point of their development. make you angry, there is more to be revealed in the debate, just tune in.

 

[dthmstr254]

I don't know very many Christians who would call atheists evil. I have no doubt there are some, but there are misguided people in every belief system. I may wish atheists believed differently, but beliefs are not evil - only actions. An atheist can be a moral, upstanding person and a Christian can be a depraved lunatic.

yes, exactly. we are now falling back to the meat of the argument. theism, atheism, and evolutionism have one thing in common: they are philosophy. they are both dealt with by philosophy books.

My only problem with atheists/agnostics is their frequent hypocrisy in one particular area. No one screams louder than an atheist when approached by a (usually well meaning) believer who tries to convert them (also known as changing one's mind). However, most atheists I know waste no opportunity to tell believers just how wrong they are for their beliefs. Is the hypocrisy not absolutely glaring? Atheists deride believers because some believers have told them they await a fiery post-death reception party and this (understandably so) offends them. Many atheists, however, see nothing wrong or offensive in telling believers that they are weak-willed and feeble-minded sheep. Between being told that you are destined for a plane of punishment in which you claim not to believe and being told you are an ignorant follower of myth - which would you find more offensive?

exactly my problem with some of the "upstanding citizens of the scientific world." even bringing up the Bible in today's world gets you criticized, mocked and even discriminated against. I have an immense amount of trouble trying to get a job outside my church or family because I refuse to work on sunday. no, I do not claim to be perfect, and I don't claim that I know everything. that is a lie, and I am being perfectly honest about my beliefs.

 

[hiker]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Being an athiest myself, I must say, I don't understand the more vocal nonbelievers at all. If you don't want someone preaching to you, trying to force a belief upon you, why is it okay for an athiest to tell other people what they should think? You believe whatever you like, that's your thing. As long as you're not hurting anybody, do whatever helps you get through life with a smile on your face.

Some of the more vocal athiests need to ask themselves why they are so angry over religion. The anger has nothing to do with a religion, it has everything to do with some unresolved issue in your own mind. It may be time to get over it and move on. Just a suggestion.

 

[Donkey1499]

yeah, and Java man and all that. that debate should be left where it is currently happening, under "why do atheists have such a problem with religion" thread. I can easily take apart every bastion of the belief in evolution. just watch me do so, I will take you through the incompleteness of the fossil record, and the fact that things such as the "biological big bang" or "Cambrian explosion" disprove the theory that we are the result of random minor mutations. shoot, the biological big bang supports the Creationist theory more than anything else.and just because we share 98% of an apes genes, that proves nothing. in fact the genes that determine the body type and build are the same as ours. why are they so easily distinguishable from us? shouldnt they be built like us. the hair growth genes are the same as ours, why do they sprout their hair all over, in both genders, while we are so unhairy? the only different genes are the brain capacity genes and the organ size genes. this proves in no way that we evolved from apes. and the fossil we call the java man is just a collection of a femur, a piece of the skull cap, and a few teeth. they built the rest. this is considered a travesty to true science. you think we should cover all our scientific bases in creationism, but you won't cover all of yours? in addition, you believe in lies when you use Haeckel's embryos to support evolution. only 20 years later a team of scientists proved that Haeckel doctored his drawings to make them look similar. and the thought that those animals were in the early stages of embryotic development is laughable. the same team proved that they were past the halfway point of their development. make you angry, there is more to be revealed in the debate, just tune in.

I don't really back evolution. We were made 'special', but there is still no denying that we were made with some of the same parts. Were we not made last? (If you believe in the Christian version of creation.)

There are many holes in the fossil record. And how does something just 'evolve'? Something would have to get it going. Some of the animals out there would take so long to come from a unicellular being to what they are now. I think the # is like 10 to the 4 trillionth power. There's a better chance of me getting struck by lightning while sitting in a rubber house with the windows open slightly.

 

[dthmstr254]

I don't really back evolution. We were made 'special', but there is still no denying that we were made with some of the same parts. Were we not made last? (If you believe in the Christian version of creation.)

There are many holes in the fossil record. And how does something just 'evolve'? Something would have to get it going. Some of the animals out there would take so long to come from a unicellular being to what they are now. I think the # is like 10 to the 4 trillionth power. There's a better chance of me getting struck by lightning while sitting in a rubber house with the windows open slightly.

hey, you might be a democrat if you chose your moniker for it, but you tell them like it is. dagum!!! you just basically said what Berra's Blunder implied, ID is the way to go.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Being an athiest myself, I must say, I don't understand the more vocal nonbelievers at all. If you don't want someone preaching to you, trying to force a belief upon you, why is it okay for an athiest to tell other people what they should think? You believe whatever you like, that's your thing. As long as you're not hurting anybody, do whatever helps you get through life with a smile on your face.

Some of the more vocal athiests need to ask themselves why they are so angry over religion. The anger has nothing to do with a religion, it has everything to do with some unresolved issue in your own mind. It may be time to get over it and move on. Just a suggestion.

if this were my pastor, he would have ended with "just a thought!" but, you aren't a pastor, so I won't say it applies to you. Just a thought!

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

took them, loved them, aced them.

Then why are you totally incapable off using them?

 

[Thorgasm]

IT2002

No, that would happen if there were no gravity. The law of gravity states that every object attracts every other object with a force proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the separation between the two objects. If you walk off the roof of your house you will fall. Am I predicting the future? You could say that, but in truth I am simply aware of the consequences of the law of gravity.

Gravity is “omniscient” in that it “knows” what will happen. If you throw a ball up, it will come down. If you drop a penny it will fall to the ground. The problem is that gravity can’t “know” anything. It does not possess a brain. It operates outside the realm of intelligence.

I am suggesting that perhaps “God” exists outside the realm of human conceptualization.

I was addressing a specific question you raised

Gravity “controls” everything in that everything lives within the laws of gravity and it is pretty powerful and yet we have a free will as to how we live within its laws. We can walk off the roof if we choose, or we can fly in an airplane. If we personified gravity we might say that it punishes us for walking off the roof and we might say it is omniscient because it knew we were going to fall. But gravity doesn’t have the capability of knowing in the human sense, it “knows” in a sense beyond intellect.

You address the "omniscient" part of god, yet you ignore the "omnipotent" aspect of god, which is what my zero-sum question was asking.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Being an athiest myself, I must say, I don't understand the more vocal nonbelievers at all. If you don't want someone preaching to you, trying to force a belief upon you, why is it okay for an athiest to tell other people what they should think? You believe whatever you like, that's your thing. As long as you're not hurting anybody, do whatever helps you get through life with a smile on your face.

Some of the more vocal athiests need to ask themselves why they are so angry over religion. The anger has nothing to do with a religion, it has everything to do with some unresolved issue in your own mind. It may be time to get over it and move on. Just a suggestion.

As a fellow atheist, I take exception to part of what you said. I don't leave literature in public restrooms, hotel room, on billborads, or even knock on anyone's door to tell them what I think. I am vocal on the internet and with close friends and family. I have every right to "tell it on the mountain" if I so choose to. Religious people don't have the exclusive license on that. I don't choose to do that because of repurcussions against me and my family.

Though I am angry at religion(s) for stand in the way of progress every step of the way. That is not why I am an atheist. I am an atheist because people lie and the bible is no exception. Talk about "fish tales". I am an atheist because it is much easier to believe that religion was formed as the first form of government/science/medicine that stuck. It is not really a great stretch to believe like the fabels in the bible. No unresolved problem here in my mind. I find that the people with unresolved issues usually turn to religion though.

 

[Howard Beale]

IT2002:

You address the "omniscient" part of god, yet you ignore the "omnipotent" aspect of god, which is what my zero-sum question was asking.

A funny note: I went onto an online dictionary because I was curious how “omnipotent” was actually defined. The result for the definition of “omnipotent” was only one word: “God’. One other quick funny: I had the first Microsoft Word software on my first computer. On a whim I searched the Thesaurus for synonyms for “God”. The answers it gave were “creator”, “Divine Being” and “Bill Gates”. Thought that was pretty good.

Anyway, all we know is that the universe exists – I really only know that the world exists because I have traveled a bit, I guess I believe the scientists when they say there is a universe exists… so, it seems to me that the force that created it is all powerful because it had the power to create all and to sustain all. It gets complicated because it all revolves around our understanding of that power that created all. I sort of see it like the ocean – God is the ocean, we are the waves. We cannot exist outside the ocean and the movement of the ocean is always creating waves. Different sizes, different shapes, waves at the shore, in the open ocean, everywhere. God is like a cosmic ocean. God is both creator and creation. God created all, sustains all and is in that sense omnipotent.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Anyway, all we know is that the universe exists – I really only know that the world exists because I have traveled a bit, I guess I believe the scientists when they say there is a universe exists…

You could try looking up, or even around...:roll:

Omnipotent - having unlimited power and/or authority.

Omniscient - having infinite awareness

Perfect - without flaw.

In the vernacular of the peasantry, if God is omniscient, omnipotent, and poifect, he knows EVERYTHING, he can do ANYTHING, and he doesn't make mistakes.

Which means free will is not possible.

Since free will is not possible, sin is not possible.


OUCH! so much for the guilt merchants. And it's the guilt merchants and the holier-than-thous that give us independent free willed atheists such a pain.

 

[Howard Beale]

You could try looking up, or even around...:roll:

Omnipotent - having unlimited power and/or authority.

Omniscient - having infinite awareness

Perfect - without flaw.

In the vernacular of the peasantry, if God is omniscient, omnipotent, and poifect, he knows EVERYTHING, he can do ANYTHING, and he doesn't make mistakes.

Which means free will is not possible.

Since free will is not possible, sin is not possible.

Truly brilliant! You build your own straw men and then knock the stuffing out of them. Good Show!