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Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

tecoyah said:
These things exist....in the minds of theorists....but until experiment proves such theories to be valid beyond hypothesis....they are thought experiments only. There are several attempts planned to validate String (actually "M") theory, but even with full success these can only show hints at the existance of higher dimensions.

String theorists added another dimension to comply with M theorist(thier rivals somewhat...?).

How can they prove them though?

neutrinos,time,and gravitons are proven to exist yet under your rules they don't.
 

Engimo

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
String theorists added another dimension to comply with M theorist(thier rivals somewhat...?).

How can they prove them though?

neutrinos,time,and gravitons are proven to exist yet under your rules they don't.

Actually, many of the predictions of String Theory are going to be tested in the new particle accelerators that are being built like the giant one at CERN. You're wrong about neutrinos, though, they have been proven to exist by using giant tanks of heavy water that are placed miles below the Earth. Very interesting, actually.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/neutrino.html#c3
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
Actually, many of the predictions of String Theory are going to be tested in the new particle accelerators that are being built like the giant one at CERN. You're wrong about neutrinos, though, they have been proven to exist by using giant tanks of heavy water that are placed miles below the Earth. Very interesting, actually.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/neutrino.html#c3

please read my posts.

I said...

So dark matter,antiphotons and neutrinos(for the most part)are not real.

So what about energies that don't interact with matter.

still time,antiphotons,dark matter and gravitons don't interact with matter. I guess they don't exist then.
 

Engimo

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
please read my posts.

I said...

So dark matter,antiphotons and neutrinos(for the most part)are not real.

So what about energies that don't interact with matter.

still time,antiphotons,dark matter and gravitons don't interact with matter. I guess they don't exist then.

Dark matter's existence is inferred for the very reason that it interacts gravitationally with matter. Gravitons have not been shown to exist, because they are theoretical and cannot be tested as of yet. As well, there are no "antiphotons" - the antiparticle of a photon is the photon.

There are no such things as "energies that do not interact with matter".
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
Dark matter's existence is inferred for the very reason that it interacts gravitationally with matter. Gravitons have not been shown to exist, because they are theoretical and cannot be tested as of yet. As well, there are no "antiphotons" - the antiparticle of a photon is the photon.

There are no such things as "energies that do not interact with matter".
not exactly...

Gravitons have not yet been observed. It is hard to see how they could not exist, since they are predicted on the bases of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Both these theoretical structures have been found to have very wide domains of validity. They can't be combined in a consistent way that would apply to all ranges of phenomena, but it seems very likely that there are no major tricks in combining them on the sacle of, say, milliseconds, a range in which gravitational waves are being sought. Of course finding gravitational waves is not the same as finding gravitons, just as finding light didn't right away mean finding photons.

Yeah so time doesn't exist.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
not exactly...

Gravitons have not yet been observed. It is hard to see how they could not exist, since they are predicted on the bases of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Both these theoretical structures have been found to have very wide domains of validity. They can't be combined in a consistent way that would apply to all ranges of phenomena, but it seems very likely that there are no major tricks in combining them on the sacle of, say, milliseconds, a range in which gravitational waves are being sought. Of course finding gravitational waves is not the same as finding gravitons, just as finding light didn't right away mean finding photons.

Yeah so time doesn't exist.

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I said. Gravitons have yet to be observed, as we cannot test for their existence yet.

Time, though, does exist. It is a temporal dimension just like our spatial dimensions. Saying that time does not exist is like saying that directions do not exist - it is nonsense.
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Wow there are alot of things that are predicted and theoretical,and unobserved that we believe to exist.

Gravitons haven't been observed before.unobserved does not=non existant

Why not God?
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I said. Gravitons have yet to be observed, as we cannot test for their existence yet.

Time, though, does exist. It is a temporal dimension just like our spatial dimensions. Saying that time does not exist is like saying that directions do not exist - it is nonsense.

but going by what you said time doesn't exist.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
Wow there are alot of things that are predicted and theoretical,and unobserved that we believe to exist.

Gravitons haven't been observed before.unobserved does not=non existant

Why not God?

Because the existence of Gravitons is consistent with our universe - there is reason to believe that they do exist. Every force has a transmitter particle that we have observed with the exception of gravitation. As well, gravitons fit in many theories.

While we cannot say that they do exist, they very probably do on the above basis. God, on the other hand, has no mathematical/empirical reason to exist, and we cannot find any experimental/rational evidence pointing towards his existence.

The two things are entirely different.
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
Because the existence of Gravitons is consistent with our universe - there is reason to believe that they do exist. Every force has a transmitter particle that we have observed with the exception of gravitation. As well, gravitons fit in many theories.

While we cannot say that they do exist, they very probably do on the above basis. God, on the other hand, has no mathematical/empirical reason to exist, and we cannot find any experimental/rational evidence pointing towards his existence.

The two things are entirely different.

So experimental/mathematical criteria is what forms your reality.

What if we live in a matrix-like universe? God ran this matrix like program. We live in this program.God being all-powerful wanted us to find him by faith and so he made it impossible to prove him other than by faith.
 

Red-Phase

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
Because the existence of Gravitons is consistent with our universe - there is reason to believe that they do exist. Every force has a transmitter particle that we have observed with the exception of gravitation. As well, gravitons fit in many theories.

While we cannot say that they do exist, they very probably do on the above basis. God, on the other hand, has no mathematical/empirical reason to exist, and we cannot find any experimental/rational evidence pointing towards his existence.

The two things are entirely different.
same with WIMPs and dark matter and other dimensions but they are predicted to exist.What about supersymmetric particles? We predicted(have faith in soon discovering thier existance) them.

How do you know they are correct? God (in my example the creator of the matrix-like universe we live in)can change the program so that they would never prove him other than by faith. Certian supernatural miracles can be alteration of this program because we have faith in him.Then we can "prove" him.

Even though you don't know it faith forms your reality.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
Wow there are alot of things that are predicted and theoretical,and unobserved that we believe to exist.

Gravitons haven't been observed before.unobserved does not=non existant

Why not God?

If by "God " you mean some undefined force interacting with our reality....then there is no evidence to say it does not exist. If however, you refer to the Christian God, as this thread seemed to be.....then the evidence is compelling against such a thing.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
So experimental/mathematical criteria is what forms your reality.

What if we live in a matrix-like universe? God ran this matrix like program. We live in this program.God being all-powerful wanted us to find him by faith and so he made it impossible to prove him other than by faith.

What if? There is no evidence to support that claim, so it lies in the realm of the hypothetical.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Engimo said:
What if? There is no evidence to support that claim, so it lies in the realm of the hypothetical.
I am not going to pretend that I can prove God's existance to you.If you don't believe in God than thats your choice.

My mission is to present the truth of the son of God, Jesus Christ.

Only the Holy Spirit can draw man to God. Not me.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
nice dodge now answer my question...

How do you know you exist.

I did not dodge your question. Had you had the wits to see past your arrogance of censustaker, you would have seen that I am post-modernist. Seeing as you have shown the same literate powers of an average tapdancing hippo, it means I am not certain of anything. Including, my own existence. However, it is quite likely that I exist.

You ask what real is? The real and existent I define as two different things. Real is the material world, it is a certain reality. Existence is more difficult to define as I try to avoid the stereotypical binary approach of to be or not to be, after all, tertium datur. It is not so much important as to whether real is, or whether it exists, or whether those two are the same, as whatever judgement we fell on it is quite irrelevant. What we do with the fact that we experience some kind of reality is much more intriging.

You ask why God did not reveal himself outside of reality? Why? Because he does not exist, at least, not in the sense of him being part of this reality, or for that matter, any other supposed reality. If God transcends such existence, he should rightfull appeal outside of it, not through some book.

My tiny little mind? I wholeheartedly agree. However, if God exists he created me to worship me, which would make my reasoning capacity far beyond 'tiny' and 'little', but near divine. He made me in his image. Ergo, my conclusions on his existence in either case are completely irrelevant to the world, of course, from my bias, as you point out, but they are not unfounded. The only non-silly thing to do is to deny an entity real existence when he refuses to show himself in a way that would identify him as such an existence.

And, if you feel I am dodging your questions, perhaps you should seize asking dodgy questions.

My mission is to present the truth of the son of God, Jesus Christ.

Only the Holy Spirit can draw man to God. Not me.

Ah, you remind me of King Ahab. He was human, died, and seized to exist in whatever form save for the fame in the minds and books of man. So too you will die and wither to emptiness. Don't worry, however, it is not unknown to your species to rationalise this and find some form of exceptable nonsense to give a little bedsheet to cry on.

Mr U
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
Wow there are alot of things that are predicted and theoretical,and unobserved that we believe to exist.

Gravitons haven't been observed before.unobserved does not=non existant

Why not God?

Because there is absolutely no evidence for a god. There is no theory that leads to the conclusion.

The only way to to make an argument for a diety is to start from the premise that one exists, and then try to interpret data to fit that.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
I am not going to pretend that I can prove God's existance to you.If you don't believe in God than thats your choice.

My mission is to present the truth of the son of God, Jesus Christ.

Only the Holy Spirit can draw man to God. Not me.

If you can't prove God's existence, then you can't show any truth based on the supposition that Jesus is the son of God.
 

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You will never know the truth till you die....maybe. Then what the hell good will it do you?
 

kal-el

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
Atheist are pretty funny when they try to disprove God.

Glad you think so.

They have no idea who implanted thier anti-christian/islam thought paterns.But thats another debate.

Actually, my "thought patterns" emerged by themselves, as I read your holy book.

See when we limited humans use our limited logic with our limited view of the universe and what we know.We can say the same about other dimensions, and dark matter.Haven't ever observed either. We haven't proved either exists.

I'm not denying any of that, but there's a book written about the Christian god. And Christians believe he exists.

Atheists believe there is no god.

Awesome assertion. But, Christians deny the Egyptian gods, does'nt that make them atheists also?

Are they correct?

Who knows? Only time will tell I guess.

I don't believe so.

That's fine. And you can believe this or that. You can safely stay nestled in your religious cacoon.:lol:

Can I "prove" God to an atheist.No.Can an Atheist prove God doesn't exist to me? No.Why? Because the atheist made thier choice not to believe in God and I have made my choice to believe in God.

Are you sure you're not Pat Robertson, using the name "Red Phase"?

We humans need to realize our limits.One of which is the truth that we are incapable of really "knowing" anything.Bias,we are biased toward our earthy experiences.We are biased toward our human instincts and personal desires.We are biased toward our own physical reality. Here's an example.

Then why do you take the bible as "truth"?

Atheist claims God doesn't exist.

Uhh, false. A strong atheist makes those claims. I consider myself a weak atheist, or negative atheist. Strong atheism is the claim that "there are no gods", while weak atheism is simply the lack of believe in any gods without directly asserting that there are no gods. The claim that "there are no gods" is a claim about reality, while the assertion that I lack believe in gods, is a claim about myself.

And I ask how do you know you exist.

There's a little thing called a photo I.D.:lol:
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Red-Phase said:
I am not going to pretend that I can prove God's existance to you.

Good to hear that, cause you'd just end up making an ass out of yourself.:lol:

If you don't believe in God than thats your choice.

Glad you made that clear.

My mission is to present the truth of the son of God, Jesus Christ.

Well, present it, if it is the truth, instead of rambling off blatant deceptive claims.

Only the Holy Spirit can draw man to God. Not me.

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't be anymore dishonest, you prove me wrong again.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

kal-el said:
Yes, atheists don't subscribe to the idea of a "sky fortress" or "burning abyss" or any nonsensical things like so. By the way, I consider heaven to be filled with beautiful young women who can service me till no end, if one has a differnent take on it, how can it be heaven, it has to correspond to everyone's tastes, right?

Why are we here on this small dot (earth) in this vast universe? I think a belief in God is just natural and not a Christian thing. Why are we here, and different than animals that just go by instinct. The bible seems to make more sense the more you think about it?
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

realist said:
Why are we here on this small dot (earth) in this vast universe? I think a belief in God is just natural and not a Christian thing. Why are we here, and different than animals that just go by instinct. The bible seems to make more sense the more you think about it?

I'm going to have to go with the bible makes more sense the less you think about it. When I was a kid, I'd hear those stories and go "oh, okay...sure." Now I enjoy tormenting Christians with the question of who Adam and Eve's kids slept with. :2wave:
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

HU-210 said:
These religions give a false belief in purpose, in meaning, while there is in fact no meaning, but something 'less special'.

There is no way that you would ever convince me that this is true. There is plenty of meaning to life. There are vast amounts of beauty here. If nothing else, we're at least here to help each other. My life has been far too blessed for me to believe in your rather empty viewpoint.

The result in depression, in the idea "There is no purpose in life. I want to die!" has been opposed by post-modernist and existentialists (the latter more) with the "Yes, live!" but the words ring hollow. If you have been promised eternal bliss, will you take 80 years of happiness instead? This is, in my eyes, the great crime of these self-suppresing religions. They tell us the stuff we want to hear, not the stuff we should hear, and when these promises turn out false, we become 'depressed'.

Mr U

Depression has nothing to do with religion. I've never heard or read about a reputable psychiatrist that has claimed that depression is linked with religion (although I can just see you pasting a link in your reply to this). Depression can be caused either a natural chemical inbalance or due to a trama. If people don't get what they want out of life, it isn't because of religion. It's just because they either had bad luck or they just made the wrong choices. To say that religion is linked with depression would be like saying that atheism eliminates depression. This is like saying that atheism is the, "fountain of youth" for people with emotional problems.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Kelzie said:
I'm going to have to go with the bible makes more sense the less you think about it. When I was a kid, I'd hear those stories and go "oh, okay...sure." Now I enjoy tormenting Christians with the question of who Adam and Eve's kids slept with. :2wave:

That is an interesting question, never thought about that. Genesis 4:17 said that Cain lay with his wife? This had to be his sister?, unless someone else can shed some light on this?
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Kelzie said:
I'm going to have to go with the bible makes more sense the less you think about it. When I was a kid, I'd hear those stories and go "oh, okay...sure." Now I enjoy tormenting Christians with the question of who Adam and Eve's kids slept with. :2wave:


HUH? Are you smoking a crack pipe? How would this torture us? The Bible said to be fruitful and muiltiple. If you mean did they have premartial sex, I couldn't care less. What other people choose to do, including Adam and Eves' kids or whoever else, has no bearing on the Bible's message. Besides, it's already commonly asumed that Caine, judging by his character, was probably permiscuous in the Land of Nod or whereever else he went.
 
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