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Why do Americans Love War?

:) which is why you can't be held responsble for having no access to it. and the fact that nothing has leaked is just proof of how very, very good 'they' are.

:roll: you have a non-falsifiable thesis.

Gee, I didn't know I wrote a thesis.:shock: Hot dam!:2dance:
 
I am not sure what to make of this comment, and if it relates at all to the topic. Of course Europe is changing, and it may turn into something else. This patch of land we live on has changed beyond recognisation, if one considers how it looked 2000 years ago. Change happens, and so what, as long we move forward in civilization rather than remain stagnant or even move backwards.
I think you missed my point or I should say observation, and yes I agree that all countries should advance through time and grow as a viable nation.
 
In this regard - I think war to most people seems like a more "reasonable option" when it comes to dealing with problems . . . rather than people 'loving' war.
Favoring war when a conflict arises is not a pure US only thing - it's actually a widespread thought process which has been fostered and furthered by numerous civilizatons throughout history. We're just one of the many.

In truth - the notion of dealing with differences and conflicts - especially when some involved in the problem also favor war or violence as a means of dealing with those they consider an adversary (terrorists come to mind) - with non-war tactics is actually very modern. Throughout history it was just sad fact that if you didn't wage war on your enemy as well as they waged war on you your civilization would likely fall victim and be conquered.
In the past the notion of 'talking about it, passing sanctions' was ridiculous - absolutely laughable *unless* there was a peace-treaty or some type of agreement in which land and other things were traded or given in lieu of actual warfare.

Think about it - The Art of Waging War and Conquering Your Enemies Through Force is a much practiced and very expertly contrived thing - it's been around for so long we know how to do it - and do it well (everyone does).
But The Art of Dealing With Your Tyranical Enemies With Non-combat Solutions is new, its' not as well researched and practiced and surely is not well known and honed to an artform and executed with grace.

:shrug:

So - rather than 'love' we can say war is a 'comfort zone' (however bizarre and odd that sounds) simply because it's tried and true.

That's true. But I think a more skeptic view of war, primarily in Europe, came into existence for a very good reason:

Never before the 20th century, war was that devastating and painful for the civil population as it is today. Today, states waging war have all kinds of highly effective WMD at their disposal that can kill hundreds or thousands of people by just pushing one button. Nerve gas was first used in WW1, and nuclear weapons not before the end of WW2.

Back in the Civil War, or in the French-German war of 1870/71, it was still easy to maintain the notion war is honorable, and its bad sides were not as big, as obvious enough to make people consider war generally undesirable, or to keep leaders from considering them a legitimate "continuation of politics by other means":

Brave men in uniform were shooting on other brave men in uniform, in what was usually considered a fair, honorable fight, and their code of honor (and the war law they usually agreed on) kept them from raping or murdering the civil population. Sometimes, that may have happened nevertheless, and sometimes, soldiers plundered and pillaged, but this kind of hardship for the civil population was rather an exception to the rule than inevitable consequence of modern war with WMD. In modern war, civil loss is inevitably higher, because of the nature of many weapon systems in use.

Maybe the difference on both sides of the Atlantic is that Europeans have experienced such a modern war with WMD -- bombs explicitly targeting living quarters or at least the use of weapons and tactics that inevitably caused huge "collateral damage" --, while the most recent American memory of war on the own soil dates back to the more honorable times of the Civil War.

Completely getting off subject (well, maybe not) I couldn't help but think about the Iliad (even though it's epic fiction). In the days of Ancient Greeks a mighty warrior was measured by his spoils of war - what he plundered and was given after their great defeat. Warriors at that time were honored and revered.
This war-proud culture is where a lot of our modern-cultures are rooted. Even today philosophers from that time like Aristophanes and Aristotle are a *very* heavy influence in our culture and government. They were the Ancient Greeks who revered the mighty warrior . . . and their views and opinions heavily govern what people think and feel even today about these things.
As they've done throughout history.

The Renaissance was the rebirth of Europe - post the Middle Ages or, as they called it, the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages was a period of complicated havoc and just tiresome disorganization in Europe (which is why they named it the Dark Ages) and once they stepped into the Renaissance era they brought back to life and re-birthed the Greek Classics - their thoughts, philosophies and especially their views of warfare and civilization conquering and expansion centered around and cuddled right up to the Ancient ways.

I think the preoccupation with warfare and so on is a passion of the Past - unable to leave the past in the past and enter into a new future with different priorities.

That's a very interesting thought. And yes, now as I think of it, I believe you are right. War was considered most honorable in Europe in the 18th and especially 19th century, the age when ancient concepts came back to European consciousness, and when peoples were fighting for the idea of the national state, and part of their code of honor, which made warfare a very honorable endeavour, was the respect for war law.

Maybe the last war in Europe that was embraced by majorities of people, maybe even eagerly anticipated, was WW1. At least in Germany, people embraced war when it was started. This fondness for war soon faded, when the death tall increasingly grew and no progress was made in France, when the first nerve gas and airplanes were used.

Believe it or not, but even WW2 already was rather unpopular in Germany. Hitler had to emphasize time and again that he wants peace and peace only, not just because he wanted to lull the allies, but also because that's what was popular in Germany. Hitler even had to stage a full-scale sharade by faking a Polish attack on Germany, and he wouldn't have had to do that, if the people had been just too willing to easily start a new war of aggression. Then, of course, the initial many quick victories fostered public support for the war.

Not that I think Germans in WW2 were pacifists, or rejected war as strongly as they do today. But I think it's obvious Hitler already needed to put more effort into convincing the people than Kaiser Wilhelm II had to.
 
Brave men in uniform were shooting on other brave men in uniform, in what was usually considered a fair, honorable fight, and their code of honor (and the war law they usually agreed on) kept them from raping or murdering the civil population. Sometimes, that may have happened nevertheless, and sometimes, soldiers plundered and pillaged, but this kind of hardship for the civil population was rather an exception to the rule than inevitable consequence of modern war with WMD. In modern war, civil loss is inevitably higher, because of the nature of many weapon systems in use.

Of course, the most recent example of conflict is the Iraqi War. For sure this was not an honorable fight seeing as how the terrorists and insurgents were not in uniform. Nonetheless, the US and coalition forces continued to uphold the law of warfare. You claim that civilian casualties go up, yet Iraqi Civilian casualties since Jan, 2005 is only 47,876 people. Surely this is the lowest number of civilian casualties in modern warfare. The Iraqi war is an excellent example of how to conduct counterinsurgency in an urban population.
 
Of course, the most recent example of conflict is the Iraqi War. For sure this was not an honorable fight seeing as how the terrorists and insurgents were not in uniform. Nonetheless, the US and coalition forces continued to uphold the law of warfare. You claim that civilian casualties go up, yet Iraqi Civilian casualties since Jan, 2005 is only 47,876 people. Surely this is the lowest number of civilian casualties in modern warfare. The Iraqi war is an excellent example of how to conduct counterinsurgency in an urban population.

Except for those "only" 47,876 dead people.:roll:
 
Except for those "only" 47,876 dead people.:roll:

What can I tell you? Most of them were killed by other Iraqis during the civil war. War kills people and not just other soldiers. Especially true when one force is hiding in the civilian population and targeting civilians.

Of course, you can say that war is unnecessary, but that's a bit naive.
 

Like, basically everything? Installing local puppet regimes, selling the production of local resources to American companies without a fair international bidding? "Educating" the "savages"? Using violence to crack down local insurgencies? Etc pp.

FYI the Lancet survey is proven bull**** and reputable sources put the figure at appx. 100,000 up to 2009.

There are many surveys, and basically all of them put the number of deaths as consequence of the invasion into the six-digit-range. If you don't like one particular of these studies, there are enough others you can you to see that really a huge number of people died. You yourself quoted the 100,000 number which is probably the most conservative estimation.

So you are saying brutally murdering 100,000 is nice and fine, but 650,000 is not? I don't even have words for people like you.

Those guilty were tried and convicted and considering that if you had your way Saddam who had people put feet first into industrial paper shredders would still be in power versus U.S. national guard soldiers building a naked pyramid, you really have no right to say anything.

You are cynic and lacking any moral compass whatsoever. You support the brutal death of more than 100,000 people, explicitly. Obviously, you are not exactly in a position to make a moral judgment on Hitler, Stalin or Saddam, because your ethical standards are the same as their's. After all, your cause is just, right?

Saddam maintained the WMD production facilities, he had the means and the desire to continue the production of WMD, he just didn't have the stockpiles that we thought.

Yeah right, Rupert Murdoch told you that. Hugenberg also proved in his newspapers that Hitler does not want war, and that Poland attacked Germany first and thus started WW2.

You mean like the dead bodies created by the chemical weapons produced by Saddam in a German WMD plant?

Just two nice videos:





If Saddam had WMD (which he hadn't), then it might be some of those the USA emissary Donald Rumsfeld delivered Saddam in the 1980s, for that he will murder thousands of innocent Iranian civilians with it.

What's not speculation, though, is that Bush himself delivered Saudi-Arabia weapons. And Saudi Arabia is an islamofascist tyranny where women may never even leave the house without male company, are not allowed to talk to men who are not family members and are regularly stoned to death when they didn't respect the veiling order.

Get off your high horse. Morals and ethics never played even the slightest role for the Bush regime, and it never was a reason for the US to start a war. How naive must you be to assume a war will ever be started if it doesn't pay off?

Oh please the Germans knew exactly who the National Socialists were when they voted them into power. Hitler's racial views were all printed out in Mein Kampf.

The Nazis were never voted into power. Their party actually won only 33.1% in the last free election of November 1932. Hitler was appointed by conservative President Hindenburg, who abused a loophole in the Constitution.

And yes, people could have known about Hitler's intentions. But nobody took him seriously, just like people don't tend to take everything seriously opposition politicians write in their books. It was their failure not to ask more. But many didn't even want to know, and instead just clinged to the repeatedly published government propaganda that "the Jews are just relocated to a new home in the east", that German soldiers were honorable and respected war law, etc pp.
 
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Of course, the most recent example of conflict is the Iraqi War. For sure this was not an honorable fight seeing as how the terrorists and insurgents were not in uniform. Nonetheless, the US and coalition forces continued to uphold the law of warfare. You claim that civilian casualties go up, yet Iraqi Civilian casualties since Jan, 2005 is only 47,876 people. Surely this is the lowest number of civilian casualties in modern warfare. The Iraqi war is an excellent example of how to conduct counterinsurgency in an urban population.

Don't want to debate me German Guy?
 
What can I tell you? Most of them were killed by other Iraqis during the civil war. War kills people and not just other soldiers. Especially true when one force is hiding in the civilian population and targeting civilians.

Of course, you can say that war is unnecessary, but that's a bit naive.

Some wars are necessary. Especially to repel foriegn invasions as per the constitution.

It's kind of impossible to fight an enemy without a face or country. I would rather rely on covert operations to kill our enemies. They would not be able to identify us that way and we would be taking away valuable targets from them.

We have to get rid of the marching bands, shoe shining, chicken sh!t, ceremonial military tactics and replace them with cloaks and daggers.
 
Some wars are necessary. Especially to repel foriegn invasions as per the constitution.

Humanitarian interventions are also necessary. This is what we did in Iraq.

It's kind of impossible to fight an enemy without a face or country. I would rather rely on covert operations to kill our enemies. They would not be able to identify us that way and we would be taking away valuable targets from them.

Al'Qaeda was secondary to the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. While counter-terrorism has it's place, Iraq was primarily a counterinsurgency. This requires boots on the ground, protecting the population, standing up local security forces, establishing a capable local governance, rebuilding the economy for jobs, addressing infrastructure needs... This is a job for combat troops and developmental specialists.

We have to get rid of the marching bands, shoe shining, chicken sh!t, ceremonial military tactics and replace them with cloaks and daggers.

We need 2 forces...

First is a combat force, that is covert and kinetic. They are in and out on the target, based on good intelligence. It is a counter-terrorism force. It includes littoral navy, air power, and insertion and extraction technology and capability

Second is a counterinsurgency force. Lots of boots, lots of developmental specialties: governance, security, training, infrastructure, medical, telecommunications, economic. They go in for the long haul - decades.

All that is left is to pick targets. A counterinsurgency target must be a humanitarian intervention that meshes with out national interest. Iraq is in a very geopolitically important region, given the oil, and so is in our national interest.
 
Humanitarian interventions are also necessary. This is what we did in Iraq.



Al'Qaeda was secondary to the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. While counter-terrorism has it's place, Iraq was primarily a counterinsurgency. This requires boots on the ground, protecting the population, standing up local security forces, establishing a capable local governance, rebuilding the economy for jobs, addressing infrastructure needs... This is a job for combat troops and developmental specialists.



We need 2 forces...

First is a combat force, that is covert and kinetic. They are in and out on the target, based on good intelligence. It is a counter-terrorism force. It includes littoral navy, air power, and insertion and extraction technology and capability

Second is a counterinsurgency force. Lots of boots, lots of developmental specialties: governance, security, training, infrastructure, medical, telecommunications, economic. They go in for the long haul - decades.

All that is left is to pick targets. A counterinsurgency target must be a humanitarian intervention that meshes with out national interest. Iraq is in a very geopolitically important region, given the oil, and so is in our national interest.

The constitution has no provisions for "humanitarian intervention". We have the Salvation Army and the Red Cross for that.

Given your reasoning on this matter we should be warring with about one third of the world. How do we pay for it? By cutting unemployment compensation and all government social programs and raising taxes?

That is roman empire stuff.

We should heed George Washington's "Farewell Address" and forget Dick Cheney.
 
I find this article lacking. I find it is an opinion in search of reality. A "peacenick" who is looking to fit his conclusions with not so relistic opinions of America and war.

He is a former Lt Colonel. I concur with him because I am a filthy peacenik hippy.
 
I am not sure but I would say a teacher at an academy would have some military experience.




Not necessarily... he could have gotten his commission based on the need for a teacher at the academy. Do you have a link to his bio?


He's not a pilot, and he was an officer..... So it doesn't seem he even made Fobbit status. :shrug:
 
This is a great article about why most Americans are brainwashed about the glory of war.

Capping the Wellsprings of War by Lieutenant Colonel William J. Astore

I don't think it's just America who loves war. Europe has been in wars too, and is participating in our current wars. It's more fundamental than that, humans love war. We have a very destructive side which we seem more than willing to embrace. It's not limited to just one country, humans can be very violent monkeys when they wish.
 
The constitution has no provisions for "humanitarian intervention". We have the Salvation Army and the Red Cross for that.

The Constitution specifies common defense. Given the international nature of threats these days, humanitarian interventions are in our common defense. It reduces the threat level to America. The Salvation Army and Red Cross can play a specialist role in counterinsurgency.

Given your reasoning on this matter we should be warring with about one third of the world. How do we pay for it? By cutting unemployment compensation and all government social programs and raising taxes?

I specified:

reefedjib said:
A counterinsurgency target must be a humanitarian intervention that meshes with ou[r] national interest.

This excludes most third world dictatorships and failed states. That said, there is the Core and the Gap and this would become a modus operandi in the Gap.

We pay for it by combining funds with other democracies, through the mechanism of a new Organization of Democratic States. The UN may pass resolutions on a state, but the ODS would execute that resolution to intervene.

That is roman empire stuff.

What's your point?

We should heed George Washington's "Farewell Address" and forget Dick Cheney.

The world, and our role in it, has changed since then.
 
Some wars are necessary. Especially to repel foriegn invasions as per the constitution.

interesting assumption. where in the Constitution does it say that repeling foriegn invasions is the only correct use of the military? given that the founding fathers invaded multiple foriegn lands; i'm thinking isolationism is going to be a tough sale for you.

It's kind of impossible to fight an enemy without a face or country.

it's not impossible at all to fight a counterinsurgency; we're actually becoming pretty adept at it. it is difficult; but hardly impossible.

I would rather rely on covert operations to kill our enemies.

ah. and these bad guys would be willing to identify themselves to our covert forces?

you have to be able to provide 24/7 security to the local populace in a counterinsurgency; what we call population-centric-ops. that requries a massive (initial) investment in ground troops and trainers, followed by a gradual results-based shift to local security forces and resources. the "special forces and drones" joe-biden theory is about as realistic as his "iraq is lost so let's split it into three countries and see if that works" idea.

They would not be able to identify us that way and we would be taking away valuable targets from them.

:confused: 1. yeah, they would know who it was and 2. they wouldn't care. it's not as if Dr Zawahiri is going to say "well, i was going to give the green light to attacking the world cup, but we're not sure it was a Westerner that killed Shamael, so let's wait until the investigation is concluded before we act rashly...."

and 3. it wouldn't be their center of gravity; which (again) is that populace.

We have to get rid of the marching bands, shoe shining, chicken sh!t, ceremonial military tactics and replace them with cloaks and daggers.

i agree with the marching bands, shoe shining, and ceremony. because we need to shift into a deadlier force. the cloak and dagger? it has it's role. just not as the main effort.
 
The constitution has no provisions for "humanitarian intervention". We have the Salvation Army and the Red Cross for that.

1. the Constitution does not give a specific mission-set for military operations. MOOTW is a fully Constitutional exercise of the national governments' authority.
2. the Red Cross and Salvation Army are unarmed. I dare you to take a large amount of food, medical supplies, and resources into Somalia without many, many guns plus people who know how to use them.

increasingly one of the biggest "humanitarian" concerns is a simple lack of rule of law / security. that's a problem that is solved by force.

Given your reasoning on this matter we should be warring with about one third of the world. How do we pay for it?

we do it one by one, starting with the worst of the worst and within capability.

By cutting unemployment compensation and all government social programs and raising taxes?

i would be more than fine cutting socialist policies that do nothing but cripple and drag down the people in our economy.

That is roman empire stuff.

the British Empire is a closer fit; but given the lack of colonies and much shorter time horizon between initialization and development of self-rule, it's not a complete one.

We should heed George Washington's "Farewell Address" and forget Dick Cheney.

the one where he cautioned against allying with France?
 
I dont believe Americans have any more passion for war than any other country.It would be nice to believe only certain people are involved in wars but fact is we are all the same.
 
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