Why do Americans Love War?

[LiberalAvenger]

Oh, but there is a love of war, or at least the emotional responses that conflict brings out. There's a ton of documented evidence that men feel most "alive" in a war over any other experience of their lives. It's not a conscious love, but a subconscious one. Imo, we reflexively criticize it because it's a part of ourselves we wish to deny.

You nailed that one like a 20 ounce California framing hammer.:nails

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Oh, but there is a love of war, or at least the emotional responses that conflict brings out. There's a ton of documented evidence that men feel most "alive" in a war over any other experience of their lives. It's not a conscious love, but a subconscious one. Imo, we reflexively criticize it because it's a part of ourselves we wish to deny.

Feeling "alive" due to an adrenaline rush or psychological "perk" because you're fullfilling what you perceive is an expected "role" in society isn't loving something.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

Feeling "alive" due to an adrenaline rush or psychological "perk" because you're fullfilling what you perceive is an expected "role" in society isn't loving something.

A lot of men do not know the difference between lust and love.

 

[lizzie]

Feeling "alive" due to an adrenaline rush or psychological "perk" because you're fullfilling what you perceive is an expected "role" in society isn't loving something.

This goes deeper than what most think of as love. It's instinctive, raw, and energy-charged. It's living on the edge and experiencing real fear. It's makes someone alive in a way they have never been alive before.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

This goes deeper than what most think of as love. It's instinctive, raw, and energy-charged. It's living on the edge and experiencing real fear. It's makes someone alive in a way they have never been alive before.

I think that happened to David Carradine, rip.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

This goes deeper than what most think of as love. It's instinctive, raw, and energy-charged. It's living on the edge and experiencing real fear. It's makes someone alive in a way they have never been alive before.

Well, I just don't see it - my husband doesn't *love* it - he does it because it's his job. . . it's a ****ty, crappy, horrid job that sucks.

Maybe when they're younger they feel this way - before deployment and before reality smacks them in the face and they realize it's not a video game or a movie.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Don't forget Mexico.

Ya the Mexicans fired the first shots.

 

[Agent Ferris]

That's the Texas Revolution. I was speaking of our invasion into Mexico in 1846 and the consequent initiation of hostilities which resulted in our acquisition of California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona.

There was no invasion of Mexico until the Mexicans attacked us on land designated as U.S. territory by the Treaties of Velsasco.

 

[Mell]

I dont think Americans enjoy war, more than other nations. War seems to be a favourite tool worldwide for offloading negavive energy. Maybe the US can afford to engage in this hobby more often though, than other countries can. The rest often have to resort to similated war on computer games etc, most of the time.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

I dont think Americans enjoy war, more than other nations. War seems to be a favourite tool worldwide for offloading negavive energy. Maybe the US can afford to engage in this hobby more often though, than other countries can. The rest often have to resort to similated war on computer games etc, most of the time.

Well, maybe with the new world order that will change, hmmm, China.

 

[German guy]

Now - I find it interesting the # of people on this forum who are *from* Germany. Bennyhill posted frequently for a while and he made me interested *in* German politics - so I read some news papers and even read your Basic Law. Anti-war and violence is a fundamental component of your Basic Law on which many other laws are founded - that's not saying that Germans are without crime, of course - but it's a solid government-belief that violence and warfare is detestable and should be avoided at all costs. Whenever something is ingrained in the core of the government's ways - it becomes ingrained in the core of people's beliefs on how everyone should live.

Kudos to you for even reading the German Basic Law! Only few Americans have such a strong interest in what happens in other countries, and it's always nice to discover someone is interested in what's going on over here.

You are right, the Basic Law was written in 1948/49 as a response to the deficient Weimar Constitution of 1919 in many ways. Never again, someone like Hitler should be able to take power, and never again, there should be so much political instability as in Weimar. Many checks and balances, a strong role of super-positive law regarding human rights. And the Basic Law even says any war Germany engages in that has not been greenlit by international law is illegal (that's why it would have been unconstitutional for the German government, had it decided to participate in the Iraq War 2003).

Now - how do we compare to the rest of the world on this? The leading 10 countries? The leading 50? . . . when comparing Germany to the US its' easy to note the differences but, of course, we're not the only two countries in the world.

Yes... I am not sure about the situation in other coutries.

 

[German guy]

Suggested reading, if you're interested in the issue of war from one psychology perspective: "A Terrible Love of War" by James Hillman. If you have any interest in psychology (Jungian in specific) you may enjoy it.

Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[German guy]

I still don't think we 'love' war - I loath it because it does have a direct and horrid effect on our family (my husband's in the military recovering from injuries) . . . I can't watch it on TV, I can't even read news reports sometimes.

But perhaps saying "Americans need a reality check" is quite true.

Agreed, "love" is maybe too strong a word.

But according to my observation, Americans indeed accept war much easier than Germans. For many Americans, a war the US are involved in, is good and just by default: You are the good guys, that goes without saying, so of course a war you start must be good too. The idea that a government has egoistic or merely material interests doesn't even enter the mind of most Americans -- no, it's always a righteous fight of good (you) against evil (the enemy, who usually is a dictator, oppressing and murdering people and thus must be heroically stopped). Only the usual suspects on the far left, who aren't even "real Americans", think differently. Some even go so far questioning the patriotism of others when they dare to ask whether your motives may be less righteous than the government claims -- if a German questioned the patriotism of fellow citizens because they don't support a war, he'd have long crossed the point when the general public would have destroyed him, by shouting him down as a Nazi.

For Germans, there is no righteous reason for war, by default. The burden of proof is reversed: The government has to prove it is not just murdering innocent people for the interests of big business, because of imperialism or blind hunger for power, or to distract from domestic problems. Because that's what generally accepted as the common reason for war by most Germans. And we are the bad guys by default: Who are we to tell others how to live, and even kill them for our opinion? And how is it our business in the first place what other peoples do? We have to shut up and first take care of racists and neo-Nazis at home before we have the right to lecture others -- let alone killing them for it.

And then, war is the most evil thing governments can do: No other decision by any government will cause more pain, death, maiming, loss and destruction. There is no war without war crimes, and claiming so makes you a blatant liar or even a populist Nazi warmonger. So the only thing that *possibly*, as very last resort only, may justify war is when it saves the lives of more people than will be killed. If at all, it must be something of the scope of Auschwitz you need to end, before war is just. Some Americans say "taxes are government sanctioned theft", but Germans say "war is government sanctioned murder". Those are the common memes you meet in Germany when it comes to war.

(What I just wrote is a bit exaggerated, of course, and I don't think all Americans or Germans think like that. But I think it's not over-exaggerated, but more or less reflects the mainstream in both countries, although it's pointed.)

 

[Mell]

Well, maybe with the new world order that will change, hmmm, China.

I am not so sure China are all that influencial or will be. They have way too many internal problems, to influence a new world order or to start war mongering with foreign nations. Their improving economy creates a nice big market, but that seems to be about it.

 

[Mell]

Agreed, "love" is maybe too strong a word.

Maybe folks love war, in the way they love picking at a scab. It is disgusting and of no benefit, but they cant stop doing it.

 

[Mell]

Americans indeed accept war much easier than Germans.

I think, they just have not embarassed themselves as much as Germany has yet, with their wars.

 

[German guy]

I think, they just have not embarassed themselves as much as Germany has yet, with their wars.

Americans have certainly not lost a war yet, in a manner that resulted in the occupation by a power that directly confronted the American people with the pain and death their wars have inflicted, a winning power that forced them to realize their actions have morally discredited them completely, and that it will take decades of honest atonement before anybody will ever trust or like them again.

I think this experience has changed Germany for the better, even if that means we are a bit hysteric when it comes to war.

 

[reefedjib]

Americans indeed accept war much easier than Germans.

That's just so rich given history. Complete bull****.

 

[German guy]

That's just so rich given history. Complete bull****.

I'm talking about the situation today, 65 years after WW2.

Of course Germans were militaristic and fond of war up to WW2 and before. More so than Americans, probably.

If you had bothered reading the exchange in this thread before giving a knee-jerk response, you would have realized that.

 

[Mell]

I'm talking about the situation today...

That was clear to me. Strange that anyone would think you meant otherwise.

One of the main hinderances to political discussions in my opinion, is that they vere from one period in time drastically to another, and make inappropriate comparisons. It is tiresome when this happens.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Americans have certainly not lost a war yet, in a manner that resulted in the occupation by a power that directly confronted the American people with the pain and death their wars have inflicted, a winning power that forced them to realize their actions have morally discredited them completely, and that it will take decades of honest atonement before anybody will ever trust or like them again.

I think this experience has changed Germany for the better, even if that means we are a bit hysteric when it comes to war.

No country in the history of this planet has had so much power and used it with such magnanimity as the U.S., we haven't embarked in wars of conquest since manifest destiny and even then we established self government in the territory which came under our sovereignty. We neither committed genocide or enslaved the peoples who fell within our sphere of influence so to compare the U.S. with Germany or other previous colonial powers is a false analogy. Now I understand that as a German you would rather have the tyrant Saddam still in power who your country supplied with entire WMD plants and made back door oil agreements with paying an estimated $11.9 million in kickbacks during the oil for food program.

 

[Mell]

No country in the history of this planet has had so much power and used it with such magnanimity as the U.S.,

I think this is true. The US does its best, most of the time, and it did indeed help in Europes case. I think, a lot of the failures are due to local chaotic politics, making it difficult to impossible to receive adequate help from outside. Europe was more suseptable to help from the US, because Europe was largely democratically minded already.

 

[German guy]

No country in the history of this planet has had so much power and used it with such magnanimity as the U.S., we haven't embarked in wars of conquest since manifest destiny and even then we established self government in the territory which came under our sovereignty.

Look, I don't disagree, and I am glad America together with Britain and France liberated at least the larger part of my country and allowed us to build a free, democratic society on the ruins of the old Germany. And I prefer the US in the superpower position over any other nation, because I agree that usually, America didn't use that power to oppress.

I wonder why you react so defensively.

We neither committed genocide or enslaved the peoples who fell within our sphere of influence so to compare the U.S. with Germany or other previous colonial powers is a false analogy.

Of course it would be false to draw any similarities between Nazi Germany and the US.

There are, though, significant similarities between US policies at very least in the past, and European colonial powers.

Now I understand that as a German you would rather have the tyrant Saddam still in power who your country supplied with entire WMD plants and made back door oil agreements with paying an estimated $11.9 million in kickbacks during the oil for food program.

You are a perfect example for a war-loving American. You are full of yourself, a rah rah patriot who will swallow anything the government tells you to justify a war, as long as it's just wrapped in the flag. You think your motives are good and just by default, and no matter how many war crimes your country has committed in Iraq, and that over 650,000 Iraqi civilians died post-invasion between 2003 and 2007 (5 times the number per year than under Saddam!) is not important enough to be even mentioned. Abu Ghureib? Oh, just a few rotten apples. No WMD found? Just propaganda by commies. Even when confronted with irrefutable fact, you draw obscure propaganda claims from far right sources out of your butt to make your point, because you don't give a flying **** about the truth, but all you are interested in is wallowing in the soothing feeling that you and your country are the pinnacle of goodness. Don't let a few dead bodies get in the way of that.

Don't fool yourself. Most Germans during WW2 were not evil racists twisting their mustaches, like bad guys do. Most of them had no idea of the crimes that were committed, and they still clinged to the flag and swallowed the government propaganda, because they believed it's their patriotic duty. They honestly believed they were the good guys, that they had been attacked first, and their imagination was not sufficient to even fathom the scope of the crimes committed -- and rumors to the opposite were discarded as "anti-patriotic" or "anti-German" propaganda by angry leftists, pacifists and communists.

What an awakening it was, when finally, they were shown the mass graves and piles of bodies by the Americans, after the war! You can imagine that self-righteous rah rah patriotism and belief in a just war was thoroughly discredited then. And the same self-righteous feeling you display now turned into shame and disgust, when facing the crimes committed in our name, which we even supported.

I think a little more caution and less self-righteousness would suit us all well, when we talk about decisions that cause the death of dozens or even hundreds of thousands of people, don't you think? Because maybe, just maybe, things are not as clear as you want to believe they are.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Agreed, "love" is maybe too strong a word.

But according to my observation, Americans indeed accept war much easier than Germans. For many Americans, a war the US are involved in, is good and just by default: You are the good guys, that goes without saying, so of course a war you start must be good too. The idea that a government has egoistic or merely material interests doesn't even enter the mind of most Americans -- no, it's always a righteous fight of good (you) against evil (the enemy, who usually is a dictator, oppressing and murdering people and thus must be heroically stopped). Only the usual suspects on the far left, who aren't even "real Americans", think differently. Some even go so far questioning the patriotism of others when they dare to ask whether your motives may be less righteous than the government claims -- if a German questioned the patriotism of fellow citizens because they don't support a war, he'd have long crossed the point when the general public would have destroyed him, by shouting him down as a Nazi.

For Germans, there is no righteous reason for war, by default. The burden of proof is reversed: The government has to prove it is not just murdering innocent people for the interests of big business, because of imperialism or blind hunger for power, or to distract from domestic problems. Because that's what generally accepted as the common reason for war by most Germans. And we are the bad guys by default: Who are we to tell others how to live, and even kill them for our opinion? And how is it our business in the first place what other peoples do? We have to shut up and first take care of racists and neo-Nazis at home before we have the right to lecture others -- let alone killing them for it.

And then, war is the most evil thing governments can do: No other decision by any government will cause more pain, death, maiming, loss and destruction. There is no war without war crimes, and claiming so makes you a blatant liar or even a populist Nazi warmonger. So the only thing that *possibly*, as very last resort only, may justify war is when it saves the lives of more people than will be killed. If at all, it must be something of the scope of Auschwitz you need to end, before war is just. Some Americans say "taxes are government sanctioned theft", but Germans say "war is government sanctioned murder". Those are the common memes you meet in Germany when it comes to war.

(What I just wrote is a bit exaggerated, of course, and I don't think all Americans or Germans think like that. But I think it's not over-exaggerated, but more or less reflects the mainstream in both countries, although it's pointed.)

In this regard - I think war to most people seems like a more "reasonable option" when it comes to dealing with problems . . . rather than people 'loving' war.
Favoring war when a conflict arises is not a pure US only thing - it's actually a widespread thought process which has been fostered and furthered by numerous civilizatons throughout history. We're just one of the many.

In truth - the notion of dealing with differences and conflicts - especially when some involved in the problem also favor war or violence as a means of dealing with those they consider an adversary (terrorists come to mind) - with non-war tactics is actually very modern. Throughout history it was just sad fact that if you didn't wage war on your enemy as well as they waged war on you your civilization would likely fall victim and be conquered.
In the past the notion of 'talking about it, passing sanctions' was ridiculous - absolutely laughable *unless* there was a peace-treaty or some type of agreement in which land and other things were traded or given in lieu of actual warfare.

Think about it - The Art of Waging War and Conquering Your Enemies Through Force is a much practiced and very expertly contrived thing - it's been around for so long we know how to do it - and do it well (everyone does).
But The Art of Dealing With Your Tyranical Enemies With Non-combat Solutions is new, its' not as well researched and practiced and surely is not well known and honed to an artform and executed with grace.

:shrug:

So - rather than 'love' we can say war is a 'comfort zone' (however bizarre and odd that sounds) simply because it's tried and true.

Completely getting off subject (well, maybe not) I couldn't help but think about the Iliad (even though it's epic fiction). In the days of Ancient Greeks a mighty warrior was measured by his spoils of war - what he plundered and was given after their great defeat. Warriors at that time were honored and revered.
This war-proud culture is where a lot of our modern-cultures are rooted. Even today philosophers from that time like Aristophanes and Aristotle are a *very* heavy influence in our culture and government. They were the Ancient Greeks who revered the mighty warrior . . . and their views and opinions heavily govern what people think and feel even today about these things.
As they've done throughout history.

The Renaissance was the rebirth of Europe - post the Middle Ages or, as they called it, the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages was a period of complicated havoc and just tiresome disorganization in Europe (which is why they named it the Dark Ages) and once they stepped into the Renaissance era they brought back to life and re-birthed the Greek Classics - their thoughts, philosophies and especially their views of warfare and civilization conquering and expansion centered around and cuddled right up to the Ancient ways.

I think the preoccupation with warfare and so on is a passion of the Past - unable to leave the past in the past and enter into a new future with different priorities.

 

[Mell]

We neither committed genocide or enslaved the peoples who fell within our sphere of influence so to compare the U.S. with Germany or other previous colonial powers is a false analogy.

Well, the US did plenty of evil in history too, but I think that was due to the stage of civilization the western world was at, at that time, rather than it being specifically an American thing.

At the present time, I think both Germany and the US are leaders in civilization and human rights standards, and there are many incidents from history they would not repeat. For sure, they are not perfect, but this does not discount that they are amonst the worlds leaders and most influencial countries.