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Why didn't the Allies declare war on the Marxist Moscow´s "USSR" when they invaded Poland (Polish empire) ?

Tigerace117 said:
You lot certainly were upset that fascism was crushed and the forces of reaction forced to scurry into whatever ratholes they could find.
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Define fascism
 
Tigerace117 said:
Wrong, again. Merchant sailors do not become legitimate targets simply because they have the same nationality as “people selling weapons”.
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Ships of a co-belligerent taking arms to a belligerent are fair targets of war.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Define fascism
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A far right wing ultra nationalistic ideology which desires to destroy “the left” and democracy, routinely using religion and appeals to an imaginary glorious past as “justification” for the atrocities they routinely commit.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Except, again, the U-Boats didn’t bother to check whether the ships were carrying arms.
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Because it’s impractical and unnecessary. The US government did not allow German inspectors to examine the ships prior to departure to ensure they weren’t.

Nor did the US publicly proclaim they weren’t selling arms to Britain.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Which was a good thing. Anyone who went to Spain to commit atrocities against Spanish Catholics should’ve been persecuted.

McCarthy was a hero, so was Franco.

The term “premature anti-fascist” was most often applied to people who to Spain to join Godless Commie murder teams, it was not applied to people who had believed Hitler or Mussolini were bad people.
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As one who visited and talked to folks in Spain during Franco’s time, you should know that plenty of people in the Basque regions and elsewhere were so afraid of his fascism they didn’t even mention his name, but used a hand gesture to refer to him. When coins in your country are inscribed, “Francisco Franco, dictator (caudillo) of Spain by the glory of God,” something is out of whack. You might also note that Franco’s body was moved from its place of honor recently. I think the bodies of some of his opponents replaced his. As to the Church, as in Mexico, they stood with forces of reaction and paid a price. Spaniards referred to themselves as “mas Catolico que El Papa,” but plenty of them opposed Franco.
As to McCarthy, can you name an actual communist that charlatan exposed? How many commies in the State Department?
 
Nickyjo said:
As one who visited and talked to folks in Spain during Franco’s time, you should know that plenty of people in the Basque regions and elsewhere were so afraid of his fascism they didn’t even mention his name, but used a hand gesture to refer to him. When coins in your country are inscribed, “Francisco Franco, dictator (caudillo) of Spain by the glory of God,” something is out of whack. You might also note that Franco’s body was moved from its place of honor recently. I think the bodies of some of his opponents replaced his. As to the Church, as in Mexico, they stood with forces of reaction and paid a price. Spaniards referred to themselves as “mas Catolico que El Papa,” but plenty of them opposed Franco.
As to McCarthy, can you name an actual communist that charlatan exposed? How many commies in the State Department?
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I can imagine because the basques most unwisely joined the Republic during the war.

The church may have paid a price, but in Spain the commie scum paid a bigger one in the end. The church made no efforts to oppose the Spanish republic except in Anticlerical laws. The atrocities committed against the church were one sided and that’s why Franco had likely majority support in Spain. Franco could draw large crowds wherever he went. And there was never any serious effort to remove him from power. Franco’s body was moved because the PSOE is failing miserably at governing and needs some pointless gesture to keep enthusiasm up, in the future when they are defeated and Vox is brought into a governing coalition they can put it back, if the family wants.

In Mexico likewise the president that began the war with the church was eventually forced into exile and condemned by his successor for it.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Because it’s impractical and unnecessary. The US government did not allow German inspectors to examine the ships prior to departure to ensure they weren’t.

Nor did the US publicly proclaim they weren’t selling arms to Britain.
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Which doesn’t change the fact that the U-Boats still happily killed American non-combatants. The US wasn’t obligated in the slightest to let German spies set up sabotage and terrorism rings, which is what their “inspectors” would have done, nor were they obligated to point out the obvious that the civilian ships the U-Boats happily sunk were, in fact, civilian.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Which doesn’t change the fact that the U-Boats still happily killed American non-combatants. The US wasn’t obligated in the slightest to let German spies set up sabotage and terrorism rings, which is what their “inspectors” would have done, nor were they obligated to point out the obvious that the civilian ships the U-Boats happily sunk were, in fact, civilian.
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Not happily, they targeted ships likely carrying supplies for a war effort against them. Which is perfectly permitted.
 
The notion that the USA should have declared war on Russia for invading Poland is absurd. Go to war against both Germany and Russia? Or just Russia after the war? Russia would have kicked our ass unless we used atom bombs. But if we did so, for the future this would bring I doubt you and I would even exist to have this exchange of words. It would be fair to say that no country was ever more evil in war other than maybe the Spanish against Indigenous peoples of the Americas - some of which they completely exterminated to extinction. If it could be done way back then in war, it definitely could be done now - and much more quickly.
 
Bassman said:
What we should have done, was follow Patton's advice and drop a couple of nukes on Moscow and Leningrad after Hiroshima and Nagasaki fell.
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I do not believe that would have ended well in the long run.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I can imagine because the basques most unwisely joined the Republic during the war.

The church may have paid a price, but in Spain the commie scum paid a bigger one in the end. The church made no efforts to oppose the Spanish republic except in Anticlerical laws. The atrocities committed against the church were one sided and that’s why Franco had likely majority support in Spain. Franco could draw large crowds wherever he went. And there was never any serious effort to remove him from power. Franco’s body was moved because the PSOE is failing miserably at governing and needs some pointless gesture to keep enthusiasm up, in the future when they are defeated and Vox is brought into a governing coalition they can put it back, if the family wants.

In Mexico likewise the president that began the war with the church was eventually forced into exile and condemned by his successor for it.
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Doesn’t change the fact that the Church in both cases sided with the rich against the poor, with the oppressors against the oppressed.

BTW, Franco, Hitler’s buddy, executed 150-200k . A real Christian, that one. (See “The White Terror.”)


Thankfully the Catholic Church, starting with John XXIII changed its tune.
 
Nickyjo said:
Doesn’t change the fact that the Church in both cases sided with the rich against the poor, with the oppressors against the oppressed.
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Please, use an argument and not bullshit Marxist propaganda
BTW, Franco, Hitler’s buddy, executed 150-200k . A real Christian, that one. (See “The White Terror.”)
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Franco was not Hitlers buddy. They despised each other. They shared marginal objectives of anti-communism.
There was no “white terror” there was a red terror and then the forces of civilization after vanquishing the reds in a war the commies started had to restore order.

Thankfully the Catholic Church, starting with John XXIII changed its tune.
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not in regards to the war. The Christian martyrs of communist aggression were beatified
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Please, use an argument and not bullshit Marxist propaganda
Franco was not Hitlers buddy. They despised each other. They shared marginal objectives of anti-communism.
There was no “white terror” there was a red terror and then the forces of civilization after vanquishing the reds in a war the commies started had to restore order.

not in regards to the war. The Christian martyrs of communist aggression were beatified
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War the commies started? Check your history. Quick search showed that the republicans won elections, decisive ones, twice in the 1930s. Franco had a coup in North Africa, then proceeded to Spain, where Benito and Adolf helped out. "Forces of civilization" don't execute tens of thousands of people for political reasons, and proclaim themselves chosen by God with that message on coins, or head of state for life as Franco did. Nero might do that, perhaps, not Jefferson.
 
Nickyjo said:
War the commies started? Check your history. Quick search showed that the republicans won elections, decisive ones, twice in the 1930s. Franco had a coup in North Africa, then proceeded to Spain, where Benito and Adolf helped out. "Forces of civilization" don't execute tens of thousands of people for political reasons, and proclaim themselves chosen by God with that message on coins, or head of state for life as Franco did. Nero might do that, perhaps, not Jefferson.
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Actually, the Reds did not win to decisive elections. The original 1931 elections were more centered around the formation of a republic versus keeping the monarchy. The people of Spain did not vote for radical Anticlerical wisdom, or forced land redistribution, Or Trotsky is him, or anarcho sydicalism.

When these interest began being pushed, the people of Spain voted for the CEDA party, The Reds responded with an attempted armed insurrection in Asturias where many innocent people were killed by the Reds. Then before the four-year term of Congress was up, the president who did not want to put the winning Catholic party in the government, called for another election which was marred by extensive read voter intimidation and fraud. In many cases left wing parties in the popular front self certified their own victories before official results were counted and then intimidated officials to prevent them from finishing counts. This is all extensively documented in Stanley Payne’s writings.

The coup only occurred after the left-wing elements conducted numerous assasinations, and after the left wing government sent a death squad for the leader of a legitimate party it was a sitting member of Parliament. In fact the military was incredibly restrained, if Franco was more like general Pinochet, another hero, he would’ve launched a coup far earlier that would’ve swiftly remove the Reds from power and saved many many lives, over a prolong Civil War that occurred because they waited believing democracy would prevail.
 
Nickyjo said:
War the commies started? Check your history. Quick search showed that the republicans won elections, decisive ones, twice in the 1930s. Franco had a coup in North Africa, then proceeded to Spain, where Benito and Adolf helped out. "Forces of civilization" don't execute tens of thousands of people for political reasons, and proclaim themselves chosen by God with that message on coins, or head of state for life as Franco did. Nero might do that, perhaps, not Jefferson.
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Try reading Stanley Payne’s biography of Franco. Which I reviewed here

EMNs Reactionary Reader: Franco, a Personal and Political Biography by Stanley G Payne and Jesús Palacios

I am writing to review Franco: a Personal and Political Biography by Stanley G Payne. Stanley Payne is professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He is a recognized Hispanist and expert on European fascism as well as history of Spain. He's written extensively on the Spanish...
debatepolitics.com debatepolitics.com

This is a good overview on Franco and the war

 
EMNofSeattle said:
Actually, the Reds did not win to decisive elections. The original 1931 elections were more centered around the formation of a republic versus keeping the monarchy. The people of Spain did not vote for radical Anticlerical wisdom, or forced land redistribution, Or Trotsky is him, or anarcho sydicalism.

When these interest began being pushed, the people of Spain voted for the CEDA party, The Reds responded with an attempted armed insurrection in Asturias where many innocent people were killed by the Reds. Then before the four-year term of Congress was up, the president who did not want to put the winning Catholic party in the government, called for another election which was marred by extensive read voter intimidation and fraud. In many cases left wing parties in the popular front self certified their own victories before official results were counted and then intimidated officials to prevent them from finishing counts. This is all extensively documented in Stanley Payne’s writings.

The coup only occurred after the left-wing elements conducted numerous assasinations, and after the left wing government sent a death squad for the leader of a legitimate party it was a sitting member of Parliament. In fact the military was incredibly restrained, if Franco was more like general Pinochet, another hero, he would’ve launched a coup far earlier that would’ve swiftly remove the Reds from power and saved many many lives, over a prolong Civil War that occurred because they waited believing democracy would prevail.
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I assume you've studied this more than I, so I yield to your knowledge about Spain. But Pinochet a hero? I met with and worked with heroic doctors and therapists who treated his torture victims clandestinely, as they developed protocols for treatment still used. Stories would disgust you, though admittedly not as bad in depravity as the monsters in Argentina. You know he had doctors advising in his toture sessions, don't you? Thirty thousand people tortured, 300 criminal charges against him. A real sweetheart. If he's your hero, you would have swooned over Mengele.
 
This thread is just plain dumb
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Please, use an argument and not bullshit Marxist propaganda
Franco was not Hitlers buddy. They despised each other. They shared marginal objectives of anti-communism.
There was no “white terror” there was a red terror and then the forces of civilization after vanquishing the reds in a war the commies started had to restore order.

not in regards to the war. The Christian martyrs of communist aggression were beatified
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Actually, the only reason Hitler and Franco disliked each other was Franco’s greed. He demanded the sun, moon and stars for Spanish entry into the Second World War when Germany was one who’d have to do the heavy lifting in terms of capturing Gibraltar. Hitler decided he didn’t need another Mussolini around his neck and told Franco to **** off. Not that that stopped Franco from letting German intelligence have free reign in Spain, or from sheltering Nazis after the war.

There certainly was a white terror, just as there was just about everywhere fascism took hold.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Not happily, they targeted ships likely carrying supplies for a war effort against them. Which is perfectly permitted.
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They happily torpedoed any ship they saw, including numerous clearly designated civilian vessels.
 
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