Why did Trump wait till now for wall funding?

[maquiscat]

Didn't the ACA pass in 2009? The Dems still held the majority then.

I didn't say the results were the same. But when Obama was first in office, the Dems held enough seats in Congress as a whole to have passed Obamacare regardless of what GOP members voted. The fact that they didn't try until after enough seats had turned over that they required some GOP support, say that their goal was not passing Obamacare, but to highlight the overall GOP opposition to it and claim them as obstructionists. Of course, what they kept quiet about was all the compromises the GOP kept putting up, including passing many aspects of Obamacare as separate bills.

Today, Trump and the GOP are doing pretty much the same thing. They could have had this wall funding already, but they waited until enough seats had turned over to require some Dem support. And now they are calling the Dems the obstructionists, while conveniently ignoring all the compromises Dems have offered towards border security.

The two parties are really not all the different.

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[Mycroft]

This one is a bit of a gray area and still doesn't resolve the situation he is in. Right now, he has put himself in the position of taking the brunt of blowback on the shutdown, has put himself in a position of backing down on the SOTU address, and armed his political enemies by telling them every move in advance.

At this point, it's not whether the wall gets built, but who made the government run again.

LOL!!

If he declares a national emergency and moves forward, do you REALLY think he won't re-open the government?

He will rightfully get the credit for making the government run again.

 

[CaughtInThe]

He's just doing the Hannity/Limbaugh/Coulter thing. Wait for an excuse they cry like babies.

 

[jnug]

LOL!!

If he declares a national emergency and moves forward, do you REALLY think he won't re-open the government?

He will rightfully get the credit for making the government run again.

And since one thing has nothing to do with the other, Trump will still LOSE his National Emergency border case in the courts and nobody will take him to court over having reopened the government.

Oh wait, the cement headed Right will take him to court for reopening the government. I forget their staggering ability to come up with something STUPID.

 

[maquiscat]

LOL ... riiight. Democrats lost control because of how Obama pushed Obamacare. Massachusetts was able to send Scott Brown to the Kennedy seat because of national anger against Obamacare.

Obama didn't wait until after -- he seized the moment -- but did it bassackwards and faced severe consequences.

Were you being facetious? Hard to tell on the computer screen.

No I am not. Obama and the Dems could have gotten Obamacare passed with less resistance earlier in his presidency. That doesn't mean the same backlash wouldn't have occurred. Just that it would have made it, regardless of the GOP. As is they had to have some GOP support to get it passed. So why did they wait? It's the same question and same answer as to why Trump and the GOP waited to push the wall.

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[Amelia]

I didn't say the results were the same. But when Obama was first in office, the Dems held enough seats in Congress as a whole to have passed Obamacare regardless of what GOP members voted. The fact that they didn't try until after enough seats had turned over that they required some GOP support, say that their goal was not passing Obamacare, but to highlight the overall GOP opposition to it and claim them as obstructionists. Of course, what they kept quiet about was all the compromises the GOP kept putting up, including passing many aspects of Obamacare as separate bills.

Today, Trump and the GOP are doing pretty much the same thing. They could have had this wall funding already, but they waited until enough seats had turned over to require some Dem support. And now they are calling the Dems the obstructionists, while conveniently ignoring all the compromises Dems have offered towards border security.

The two parties are really not all the different.

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So you were being serious that they didn't try until they lost seats.

That's b.s. They had the majority in the House and 60 seats in the Senate when the Senate took their vote on Obamacare.

Then Kennedy died and that took Senate Democrats down to 59 but the ball was already in the House's court and that's when they came up with their reconciliation plan so that the loss of the vote in the Senate wouldn't stop them from making it happen.

They went for Obamacare at the height of their numerical strength, and when they lost a little bit of the steam they dragged it over the finish line by reconciliation.

 

[Mycroft]

Trump's had even more of a shot at extorting the money from the Congress than he has at declaring a National Emergency that is not a National Emergency. Attempting to turn every Congressperson and every Senator out of a job is one thing, though it is also a FAIL. Treating nine SC Justices with life tenure like they are screaming idiots is another thing. If he gets to the SC, Trump will lose there having lost in District Court and likely Appeals Court as well.

If he was going to try that he should have done it immediately and by immediately I mean at the start of his term. Even then, his chances were slim at best. I am sure National Emergency has not happened because Emmet Flood has informed DonDon that it won't happen.

Standard Trumpian tactic, try to claim a path that is irrational and impractical at best while not ever intending to attempt it....something like constantly threatening lawsuits that never actually materialize, another standard Trump practice.

Your first paragraph is nonsense. Remember...Trump put two of those Justices on the Supreme Court.

Your second paragraph is nonsense. It's always better to try the legislative process first. That is what Trump has done. But the national emergency still exists, despite your denials.

Your third paragraph is just nonsense.

 

[maquiscat]

So you were being serious that they didn't try until they lost seats.

That's b.s. They had the majority in the House and 60 seats in the Senate when the Senate took their vote on Obamacare.

Then Kennedy died and that took Senate Democrats down to 59 but the ball was already in the House's court and that's when they came up with their reconciliation plan so that the loss of the vote in the Senate wouldn't stop them from making it happen.

They went for Obamacare at the height of their numerical strength, and when they lost a little bit of the steam they dragged it over the finish line by reconciliation.

If they had the votes all along why didn't Obamacare get passed earlier in Obama's presidency?

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[Mycroft]

Trump will still LOSE his National Emergency border case in the courts

~snipped the nonsense~

You hope.

 

[roughdraft274]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the wall was Trumps main political promise during the entire campaign but yet it took two years and the giving up of control of congress before the big push came for wall funding which has now resulted in a government shutdown. Why? Was it on purpose to wait? Was it bureaucracy that caused the delay? Was it just poor planning? Is it cynical of me to think that it was intentional? Full disclosure I don’t personally support the wall or the shutdown but I am curious why it became a crisis right before the mid terms but not during the first two years.

Because Fox and Coulter and Rush told him to do so.

 

[Amelia]

No I am not. Obama and the Dems could have gotten Obamacare passed with less resistance earlier in his presidency. That doesn't mean the same backlash wouldn't have occurred. Just that it would have made it, regardless of the GOP. As is they had to have some GOP support to get it passed. So why did they wait? It's the same question and same answer as to why Trump and the GOP waited to push the wall.

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They did not have to have GOP support to get it passed. They passed it without any GOP support at all.

You're completely talking out of your hat. You don't know the history. I'm trying to remind you of the history. The Senate passed Obamacare when they had a filibuster-proof majority.

Then the Senate Democratic numbers went down to 59, so the House knew they couldn't alter the Senate version and still get it passed. That presented them with a problem because some of House Democrats didn't like the Senate version. So they struck a deal. The House would pass the Senate version without changing it, so that it didn't need another vote in the 59-Democrat Senate. But the House would also pass a companion bill which would address some of the objections of the House Democrats but which would be considered a budgetary bill and would thus would be able to get through the Senate via reconciliation with only 51 votes.

Democrats did not wait until their numbers were weakened. They started working on Obamacare early in 2009, and then as the disputed elections were decided, their numbers got stronger and they passed it in the Senate at the height of their numbers. Then when their Senate number took a hit, they rammed it through with the reconciliation addendum because after putting so much work into it throughout 2009 they were so close they could taste it.

 

[jnug]

You hope.

He is not IMO even going to try it. Too late for that.

 

[jnug]

Your first paragraph is nonsense. Remember...Trump put two of those Justices on the Supreme Court.

Your second paragraph is nonsense. It's always better to try the legislative process first. That is what Trump has done. But the national emergency still exists, despite your denials.

Your third paragraph is just nonsense.

I don't care how many Justices Trump put there. They have life tenure. They don't owe him anything.

Unfortunately for Donald, waiting through Legislative action does not quite make the grade of a National Emergency. An Emergency is an Emergency. The Law lives on language just as the Congress lives on Article 1. Trump can't bend this into an "Emergency".

And yes, Donald through his business life constantly threatened lawsuits when he did not have a leg to stand on and knew it.

 

[Amelia]

If they had the votes all along why didn't Obamacare get passed earlier in Obama's presidency?

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Healthcare is complicated. Democrats had the caucus numbers all along but first there was intensive planning in committee while on the floor legislators were addressing the financial crisis. Then when they were about ready with a detailed omnibus bill backed by all sorts of computer modeling they still had three members of the Democratic caucus in Big Pharma's pocket so they had to haggle about the public option, and they lost that because they negotiated with Big Insurance without getting the public on board first. And in the House there were Democrats with other objections, including some pro-life Democrats who wanted anti-abortion concessions. And again, without getting the public on board, they tried to make deals with Republicans, making concessions but ultimately not able to get Republicans to give them any yes votes. But this gave the GOP opposition time to work on their national movement, which is what got Scott Brown to Washington.

But Democrats actually put a lot of work into it throughout 2009 -- the kind of work that such a complex topic needed (as opposed to how little work the GOP put into their replacement measures). And so they had a massive bill ready for Democratic votes when the Senate had 60 members in the Democratic caucus.

They did it pretty darn early. They just put more than two months into hammering out the details ... while they were trying to reverse the financial meltdown and save people's homes from foreclosure. They made tons of mistakes and faced severe consequences, but they started early and did a whole lot of work. They did not drag their heels.

 

[Keridan]

LOL!!

If he declares a national emergency and moves forward, do you REALLY think he won't re-open the government?

He will rightfully get the credit for making the government run again.

If he uses a national emergency to solve the border wall (and I admit, it's hard to shut a Pres down on emergency declarations), don't you think Pelosi will just counter? She holds more cards here than most Speakers ever have or will. All she has to do is change the narrative to "when he is told no, he undermines all process" and we are back at square one.

He can't open the government without finding a solution that 3 groups agree to. He controls WH and most of Senate. He lost the house and they are feeling pretty empowered at the moment.

 

[Amelia]

If he uses a national emergency to solve the border wall (and I admit, it's hard to shut a Pres down on emergency declarations), don't you think Pelosi will just counter? She holds more cards here than most Speakers ever have or will. All she has to do is change the narrative to "when he is told no, he undermines all process" and we are back at square one.

He can't open the government without finding a solution that 3 groups agree to. He controls WH and most of Senate. He lost the house and they are feeling pretty empowered at the moment.

He knows that his emergency declaration will be blocked in court and he'll look even more impotent, so he won't go there. Mycroft's saber-rattling aside.

 

[Keridan]

He knows that his emergency declaration will be blocked in court and he'll look even more impotent, so he won't go there. Mycroft's saber-rattling aside.

Honestly, I don't like to trash Trump. There's enough of that going around. However, after all the recent attempts and actions, I hold no faith that he will see that far ahead. Trump may very well try the declaration and we end up watching another sub-drama while we wait for folks to get back to the real problem. The man seriously thought he was going to barge into the HOR and give his speech without permission. We would have seen the first legal detainment of a US President in history. I'm personally of the opinion he only backed down when a meeting with the secret service told him he would be detained by his own guards before trying that challenge.

This whole thing is BS on both sides, but Trump is just banging his head against the wall. He doesn't hold the cards. Not sure where that stops.

 

[Mycroft]

If he uses a national emergency to solve the border wall (and I admit, it's hard to shut a Pres down on emergency declarations), don't you think Pelosi will just counter? She holds more cards here than most Speakers ever have or will. All she has to do is change the narrative to "when he is told no, he undermines all process" and we are back at square one.

Nancy can say what she wants. In the meantime, he'll be taking action.

He can't open the government without finding a solution that 3 groups agree to. He controls WH and most of Senate. He lost the house and they are feeling pretty empowered at the moment.

???

Seriously? If Trump removes demand for wall funding in the Congressional funding bills...if he says, "Send me your funding bills...I'll sign them"...who will NOT send him the bills? Nancy? McConnell? Schumer?

 

[Keridan]

Nancy can say what she wants. In the meantime, he'll be taking action.



???

Seriously? If Trump removes demand for wall funding in the Congressional funding bills...if he says, "Send me your funding bills...I'll sign them"...who will NOT send him the bills? Nancy? McConnell? Schumer?

I get where you are coming from. Unfortunately, there is a level of games here that isn't on the table in a normal discussion. There are a thousand "poison pills" sitting in congress waiting to be thrown in the amendments section that will keep him from signing. There are a hundred ways to make him look bad in this scenario. If he raises again, so will they. It doesn't end because he starts a court battle that may or may not fund the wall.

I think you and I can both agree on one point. Trump took the gloves off. He said it's all fair game as long as I win.

The whole thing that has kept our government from imploding the last 60 years is the same thing that kept the cold war cold. MAD. We don't drop bombs as long as you don't. We both look like okay guys and see who picks who.

Now Trump says, "Screw that, I am gonna win and here's my arsenal." And we are looking at nothing getting better except the small chance of compromise.

 

[Mycroft]

I get where you are coming from. Unfortunately, there is a level of games here that isn't on the table in a normal discussion. There are a thousand "poison pills" sitting in congress waiting to be thrown in the amendments section that will keep him from signing. There are a hundred ways to make him look bad in this scenario. If he raises again, so will they. It doesn't end because he starts a court battle that may or may not fund the wall.

I think you and I can both agree on one point. Trump took the gloves off. He said it's all fair game as long as I win.

The whole thing that has kept our government from imploding the last 60 years is the same thing that kept the cold war cold. MAD. We don't drop bombs as long as you don't. We both look like okay guys and see who picks who.

Now Trump says, "Screw that, I am gonna win and here's my arsenal." And we are looking at nothing getting better except the small chance of compromise.

Declaring a national emergency has been a presidential power for a long time. It's been used numerous times by presidents for decades...at least going back to Carter. Heck, instead of declaring war on Libya, Obama used that power to wage war and arm rebels.

Trump using this power isn't dropping any bombs.

Hyperbole isn't your friend...reason and fact is.

 

[Keridan]

Declaring a national emergency has been a presidential power for a long time. It's been used numerous times by presidents for decades...at least going back to Carter. Heck, instead of declaring war on Libya, Obama used that power to wage war and arm rebels.

Trump using this power isn't dropping any bombs.

Hyperbole isn't your friend...reason and fact is.

The bombs was more referring to pushing the government into a record setting shut down, having a showdown over giving a speech in a division of government where you aren't welcome or invited or, yes, I guess that includes calling an emergency when you can't get your own government to back you. Gridlock is one thing, but at this point we have hundreds of thousands of people working without pay, LESS security at the border, and a mess no one sees a good way out of.

Trump isn't the only one pulling out the stops, but it's a mess and resembles (to me) what you see when everyone just starts attacking everyone and the folks trying to piece it together just see a battlefield.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the wall was Trumps main political promise during the entire campaign but yet it took two years and the giving up of control of congress before the big push came for wall funding which has now resulted in a government shutdown. Why? Was it on purpose to wait? Was it bureaucracy that caused the delay? Was it just poor planning? Is it cynical of me to think that it was intentional? Full disclosure I don’t personally support the wall or the shutdown but I am curious why it became a crisis right before the mid terms but not during the first two years.

It's never actually been about the wall.
Every crappy thing Trumpistas have done these last two years is about one thing, eliminating democracy altogether, even if it takes an act of terrorism to get it done. With a third of the government, including security essentials, effectively out of business,
the stage is now set for the biggest reality TV grand slam in history, the takedown of our very constitution itself, a veritable Reichstag Fire followed by an Enabling Act.

Time to stop silently muttering "It can't happen here".

Republicans are facing sea changes in the US that will drive them from power, unless they can make it "White male Christian conservative property owners ONLY" for voting rights again.

And 35 percent of Americans are A-OK with one party dictatorial rule.
Thirty five percent is one third. One third of Americans can easily be convinced it is right and just to kill another third, while the remaining third sits back and watches.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

They have both put themselves in their own box...but Trump's box has an escape hatch.

Yeah, even if he has to crash a few jetliners to make that happen, WE KNOW.
The disgusting part is, you'd be okay with that.

You would actually salute Trump while the Reichstag Fire is still burning.
My GOD...

 

[Mycroft]

The bombs was more referring to pushing the government into a record setting shut down, having a showdown over giving a speech in a division of government where you aren't welcome or invited or, yes, I guess that includes calling an emergency when you can't get your own government to back you. Gridlock is one thing, but at this point we have hundreds of thousands of people working without pay, LESS security at the border, and a mess no one sees a good way out of.

Trump isn't the only one pulling out the stops, but it's a mess and resembles (to me) what you see when everyone just starts attacking everyone and the folks trying to piece it together just see a battlefield.

Don't worry. Trump will resolve this mess.

Of course, that won't satisfy Nancy and Chuck. They will only attack more.

 

[Mycroft]

Yeah, even if he has to crash a few jetliners to make that happen, WE KNOW.
The disgusting part is, you'd be okay with that.

You would actually salute Trump while the Reichstag Fire is still burning.
My GOD...

Your hyperbole doesn't do you any favors.

Dismissed.