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Why are those on the left tolerant of everything, save for christians and Jews?

robert mccoin

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The attack on the ten comandments is just another example of how anything representative of God is under the blitz of the A C L U and many of those that support it.Don't get me wrong,I feel that the A C L U is an important orginization, and is a potential force of good, but I think it has gone astray with it's obvious attacks on the cross and the ten comandments
 

YamiB.

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robert mccoin said:
The attack on the ten comandments is just another example of how anything representative of God is under the blitz of the A C L U and many of those that support it.Don't get me wrong,I feel that the A C L U is an important orginization, and is a potential force of good, but I think it has gone astray with it's obvious attacks on the cross and the ten comandments
I assume you're talking about the court displays of the Ten Commandments? How is it correct to have something that says you must worship the Abrahamic god on the building of a government that is supposed to support religious freedom for it's citizens? Maybe liberals keep going up against Christian in these fights is because some Christians feel that they deserve special treatment compared to the other religions.
 

cnredd

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YamiB. said:
I assume you're talking about the court displays of the Ten Commandments? How is it correct to have something that says you must worship the Abrahamic god on the building of a government that is supposed to support religious freedom for it's citizens? Maybe liberals keep going up against Christian in these fights is because some Christians feel that they deserve special treatment compared to the other religions.
You're not making the connection that some people perceive this simply as "art".

You would accept a paper airplane as art...why not 2 ton rock with words on it that took months to be chiseled? Are you afraid of words?
 

YamiB.

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cnredd said:
You're not making the connection that some people perceive this simply as "art".

You would accept a paper airplane as art...why not 2 ton rock with words on it that took months to be chiseled? Are you afraid of words?
I'm afraid of people trying to push their religion above all others and destroy the freedom of religion in the country by first destroying the separation of Church and State. It's not right for the government to be telling people to worship the Abrahamic god, even if they're not enforcing it.
 

cnredd

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YamiB. said:
I'm afraid of people trying to push their religion above all others and destroy the freedom of religion in the country by first destroying the separation of Church and State. It's not right for the government to be telling people to worship the Abrahamic god, even if they're not enforcing it.
Thats a pretty bold statement...can you back that up with some official US document where it says anything about "separation of Church and State"?

And please...nobody do it for YamiB...She's old enough to find her own sources...
 

YamiB.

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cnredd said:
Thats a pretty bold statement...can you back that up with some official US document where it says anything about "separation of Church and State"?

And please...nobody do it for YamiB...She's old enough to find her own sources...
I believe that the Separation of Church and State is specifically stated in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. It may not be an official government document, but it would be ignorant to ignore evidence from the founding fathers of what they meant in the constitution. If you meant you wanted a document about the destruction of the Separation of Church and State leading to the destruction of freedom of religion there is none, as that hasn’t happened yet. It’s just logical that if the Separation of Church and State were destroyed then the freedom of religion would be in constant danger.

A separation of Church and State is necessary to maintain the freedom of religion. If government were to become to involved in religions then they would almost inevitably sacrifice freedom. Likewise if religions became involved in government they could gain power and use the lack of separation to knowingly or unknowingly suppress other religions.

YamiB. is a he.
 

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GO GALEN!!!

I am in total agreement with that last post. I am Catholic but I am also extremely liberal in regards to social issues. I just can't stand the idea that evangelists legislate from the pulpit because we have a right wing government in power who take their Sunday sermons and use them as a basis for making public policy. It's idiocy.

You have a diverse culture in America consisting of many different religions. Yet, every time I turn on the news, all you ever hear is the whining of the "poor persecuted Christian" who cant force his prayers down the throats of the Jews and Muslims and (Oh MY GOD, YOU CNAT SERIOUSLY THINK THEY HAVE RIGHT!) the Atheist during a school assembly. And wow, since I think maybe displaying an artisic depiction of Hammurabi's Code would be more acceptable than displaying The Ten Commandments at a government building, then I obviously hate God and other Christians. Guess I'll have to keep that in mind when I go to take the Sacrament this week...
 

Mikkel

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Kudos to Galenrox and Jallman. You have said everything I was about to say.
 

vergiss

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Oh, bugger! Apparently I'm not tolerant of myself! :roll:
 

YamiB.

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jallman said:
GO GALEN!!!

I am in total agreement with that last post. I am Catholic but I am also extremely liberal in regards to social issues. I just can't stand the idea that evangelists legislate from the pulpit because we have a right wing government in power who take their Sunday sermons and use them as a basis for making public policy. It's idiocy.

You have a diverse culture in America consisting of many different religions. Yet, every time I turn on the news, all you ever hear is the whining of the "poor persecuted Christian" who cant force his prayers down the throats of the Jews and Muslims and (Oh MY GOD, YOU CNAT SERIOUSLY THINK THEY HAVE RIGHT!) the Atheist during a school assembly. And wow, since I think maybe displaying an artisic depiction of Hammurabi's Code would be more acceptable than displaying The Ten Commandments at a government building, then I obviously hate God and other Christians. Guess I'll have to keep that in mind when I go to take the Sacrament this week...
I guess Hamurabi's code would be slightly iffy as it was supposed to be divinely inspired as well. I don't know all the laws in it, but as long as it doesn't have anything related to worshiping whatever god I guess it would be fine. It would make more sense for the historical aspect that people always try to push for the Ten Commandments as it's one of the first known law codes.
 

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They fear hell, but would never admit it.;)
 

jallman

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YamiB. said:
I guess Hamurabi's code would be slightly iffy as it was supposed to be divinely inspired as well. I don't know all the laws in it, but as long as it doesn't have anything related to worshiping whatever god I guess it would be fine. It would make more sense for the historical aspect that people always try to push for the Ten Commandments as it's one of the first known law codes.

I can totally see that point. Hamurabi's Code was an alternative I just kind of threw out there. Don't quote me on this but I was under the impression it was the first code of law we had record of, but (as is often the case) I could be wrong about that. Personally I have nothing against seeing the Ten Commandments in a goverment building but all the other points I made about "legislating from the pulpit" still just burn me up.
 

YamiB.

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jallman said:
I can totally see that point. Hamurabi's Code was an alternative I just kind of threw out there. Don't quote me on this but I was under the impression it was the first code of law we had record of, but (as is often the case) I could be wrong about that. Personally I have nothing against seeing the Ten Commandments in a goverment building but all the other points I made about "legislating from the pulpit" still just burn me up.
I've heard of three other law codes (I think from the same general area) that predated Hammurabi's Code. The earliest was from about 2050, so it predated Hammurabi's Code by about 350 years.

I think what might have been unique about Hammurabi's code was that he put them out on stones in public so everybody could see them and they were harder to change because they were literally written in stone
 

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jallman said:
GO GALEN!!!

I am in total agreement with that last post. I am Catholic but I am also extremely liberal in regards to social issues. I just can't stand the idea that evangelists legislate from the pulpit because we have a right wing government in power who take their Sunday sermons and use them as a basis for making public policy. It's idiocy.

You have a diverse culture in America consisting of many different religions. Yet, every time I turn on the news, all you ever hear is the whining of the "poor persecuted Christian" who cant force his prayers down the throats of the Jews and Muslims and (Oh MY GOD, YOU CNAT SERIOUSLY THINK THEY HAVE RIGHT!) the Atheist during a school assembly. And wow, since I think maybe displaying an artisic depiction of Hammurabi's Code would be more acceptable than displaying The Ten Commandments at a government building, then I obviously hate God and other Christians. Guess I'll have to keep that in mind when I go to take the Sacrament this week...
The founding fathers DIDNT intent for religion to be completely blotted out from legislation and policy making. If they did, then why did they establish a prayer (that ended in AMEN mind you) at the beginning of every congressional session, why did they put IN GOD WE TRUST on US currency, and why in the world would they display the TEN COMMANDMENTS in the Supreme Court building??? hmmm....

The seperation of church and state set by the founders only asks that the government not establish a state religion, and FORCE people to pray, worship etc. a certain religion. When saying the pledge of allegiance, etc. its entirely voluntary. One's religion and faith SHOULD indeed, have influence over their legislation. Their personalities and ideaologies influence their policies, and is religion not part of both of those entities? I think they are, and so therefore why not use religion as a basis to INFLUENCE one's vote??

Christianity has influenced all of western society. The 10 commandments is the basis for that. IF not, then why do western societies including the US reject MURDER, STEALING, ADULTERY??? (Many southern states still have laws on the books illegalizing adultery) BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY says so.

The anger over liberals is not the fact that they support seperation of church and state, but rather the fact that they seek to transform our society into something its not, a non-Christian society. Face it, Christianity is the basis for all of our lifestyles, whether your christian or not, if you live in a Western country.
 

IValueFreedom

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cnredd said:
You're not making the connection that some people perceive this simply as "art".

You would accept a paper airplane as art...why not 2 ton rock with words on it that took months to be chiseled? Are you afraid of words?
This is not a horrible analogy. Let's use your example on something else maybe so you can see its flaw.

The American Flag is not anything more than cloth and thread. What's so bad about burning something that's cloth and thread?

See? The Ten Commandments are not just rock, they're a symbol of something greater than the materials it's made out of. As such, it needs to be treated with the respect of the meaning and not what is tangible.


Now, as for the original statement, well more of the title of the thread. I will give you my prospective.

America is based on certain freedoms that have been expanded over time as society permits it.

The freedom of equality was originally just given to white male landowners. This was radical at the time. Then there were women and people of color and then what you see today. This freedom of equality that we have today, which few would argue is not a core freedom in our country, was not envisioned by our founding fathers as it was too far "outside the box." It took baby steps to get to where we are now. Yet the same underlying theme from our founding fathers to now is still there.

now let's look at religious freedoms.

First it started off as freedom of religion within Christianisty. This was popular for quite some time. Then toleration towards other "exotic" religions. Now we have come to a point in our country when a more inclusive perspective of freedom of religion is becoming acceptable. Unfortunately for Christians and Jews, this has lead to a lot of "attacks" against your demographic. This is not out of spite, at least from me, rather, it is our attempt to realize the ideals that our founding fathers instilled on this land. As society grows and improves, the box that used to constrict ideas has now allowed a truer religious freedom.

As such, certain things that have already been instilled in this government but do not fit with our improved version of religious freedoms must go. It's fine if they want to be put in a government run museum, but not in a place that represents the current beliefs of this great country.

BUT, I can see your point that Christians and Jews are constantly being picked on, it would feel that way if I were in your shoes. But it must be done to progress freedom. Sorry.
 

YamiB.

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KevinWan said:
The founding fathers DIDNT intent for religion to be completely blotted out from legislation and policy making. If they did, then why did they establish a prayer (that ended in AMEN mind you) at the beginning of every congressional session, why did they put IN GOD WE TRUST on US currency, and why in the world would they display the TEN COMMANDMENTS in the Supreme Court building??? hmmm....

The seperation of church and state set by the founders only asks that the government not establish a state religion, and FORCE people to pray, worship etc. a certain religion. When saying the pledge of allegiance, etc. its entirely voluntary. One's religion and faith SHOULD indeed, have influence over their legislation. Their personalities and ideaologies influence their policies, and is religion not part of both of those entities? I think they are, and so therefore why not use religion as a basis to INFLUENCE one's vote??

Christianity has influenced all of western society. The 10 commandments is the basis for that. IF not, then why do western societies including the US reject MURDER, STEALING, ADULTERY??? (Many southern states still have laws on the books illegalizing adultery) BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY says so.

The anger over liberals is not the fact that they support seperation of church and state, but rather the fact that they seek to transform our society into something its not, a non-Christian society. Face it, Christianity is the basis for all of our lifestyles, whether your christian or not, if you live in a Western country.
In God We Trust was added to currency during the 1900s I believe. I can't remember the date, but the Ten Commandments section on Supreme Court was added during a more recent renovation.

Killing and stealing have been wrong in pretty much every law code ever, so you can't use them of proof that the Ten Commandments are basis for US law. If they were the basis how would we have freedom of religion as that contradicts the first commandment?


From what I've seen most of our government is based on ideas of philosophers from the Age of Reason (think that's the common title.) Possibly drawing on some older things such as the Greek and Roman governments.
 

jallman

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KevinWan said:
The founding fathers DIDNT intent for religion to be completely blotted out from legislation and policy making. If they did, then why did they establish a prayer (that ended in AMEN mind you) at the beginning of every congressional session, why did they put IN GOD WE TRUST on US currency, and why in the world would they display the TEN COMMANDMENTS in the Supreme Court building??? hmmm....

The seperation of church and state set by the founders only asks that the government not establish a state religion, and FORCE people to pray, worship etc. a certain religion. When saying the pledge of allegiance, etc. its entirely voluntary. One's religion and faith SHOULD indeed, have influence over their legislation. Their personalities and ideaologies influence their policies, and is religion not part of both of those entities? I think they are, and so therefore why not use religion as a basis to INFLUENCE one's vote??

Christianity has influenced all of western society. The 10 commandments is the basis for that. IF not, then why do western societies including the US reject MURDER, STEALING, ADULTERY??? (Many southern states still have laws on the books illegalizing adultery) BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY says so.

The anger over liberals is not the fact that they support seperation of church and state, but rather the fact that they seek to transform our society into something its not, a non-Christian society. Face it, Christianity is the basis for all of our lifestyles, whether your christian or not, if you live in a Western country.

Though I am not a fan of the condescension you used in making a reply, I do have to admit you make some very valid points. The European settlers of this continent were often times fleeing persecution themselves. By the time we rolled around to declaring independence, religion in Congress only had two faces in this country: Catholic Christianity and Protestant Christianity. The only other religions to speak of were the pagan religions of the slaves and the Native Americans. These were two totally disenfranchised groups at that time.

Well, things have changed now, and we have an amalgamation of many different religions and all of them (rightfully so) want their fair shake at freedom of expression. Thats why it becomes especially important to separate the Church from the State now more than ever. Do I think the Wiccan Reed will ever be displayed in a state courthouse? No, obviously not. Do I think that is unfair? Well yes I do. By the same token I dont believe it is right and fair to suppress Christianity and rip down any sign it ever had any place in the history of our country. I just think its time the religious right stepped back and let level headed politicians do the law making and let Church leaders and evangelists lead churches. Basically, influence your congregations however you want...but stay the hell out of my congress and courts.
 

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YamiB. said:
If they were the basis how would we have freedom of religion as that contradicts the first commandment?From what I've seen most of our government is based on ideas of philosophers from the Age of Reason (think that's the common title.) Possibly drawing on some older things such as the Greek and Roman governments.
First off freedom of religion in no way breaks the first comandment. Freedom of religion basically tolerates all other religions. True our government was inspired by a philosipher but still the religion of our founding fathers(christianity) effected the way our laws were made. If you are interested in who that philosopher was it was John lock who believed that a baby was born with a blank mind and that babys developed through it's surroundings. Also if you look into the declaration you'll find a few words written saying "All men are created equal under god." Now that is something that you can't say was added to the declaration on some later date. So yes christianity did have some role in the creation of our country.;) :smile: :mrgreen:
 

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Aaron said:
First off freedom of religion in no way breaks the first comandment. Freedom of religion basically tolerates all other religions. True our government was inspired by a philosipher but still the religion of our founding fathers(christianity) effected the way our laws were made. If you are interested in who that philosopher was it was John lock who believed that a baby was born with a blank mind and that babys developed through it's surroundings. Also if you look into the declaration you'll find a few words written saying "All men are created equal under god." Now that is something that you can't say was added to the declaration on some later date. So yes christianity did have some role in the creation of our country.;) :smile: :mrgreen:
It says Nature's God in the Declaration, which would fit more with Deism than Christianity. Some of the founding fathers were deist.

How does freedom of religion not break the first commandment? One says that you can belong to any religion; the other says you must worship the Abrahamic god.

Edit - Our government was not influenced by just one philosopher. Yes, John Locke was one of them, but there were others.
 

IValueFreedom

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Aaron said:
First off freedom of religion in no way breaks the first comandment. Freedom of religion basically tolerates all other religions. True our government was inspired by a philosipher but still the religion of our founding fathers(christianity) effected the way our laws were made. If you are interested in who that philosopher was it was John lock who believed that a baby was born with a blank mind and that babys developed through it's surroundings. Also if you look into the declaration you'll find a few words written saying "All men are created equal under god." Now that is something that you can't say was added to the declaration on some later date. So yes christianity did have some role in the creation of our country.;) :smile: :mrgreen:

Did you even read my post???

And by the way, the guy's name is John Locke. Just FYI. Don't know if it was a typo or something... so... yeah.
 

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Would you mind if I put the almighty statue of Satan in a court with the sins of Satanism? I mean, their is no offical legislation seperating church and state that is. Oh and can we put a picture of some famous Muslim clerics in the library?
 

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V.I. Lenin said:
Would you mind if I put the almighty statue of Satan in a court with the sins of Satanism? I mean, their is no offical legislation seperating church and state that is. Oh and can we put a picture of some famous Muslim clerics in the library?
Well, being that the icon of Satan represents lawlessness and anarchy, I dont find that very appropriate. But for the sake of argument, no I dont find it personally offensive. As for hanging pcitures of famous Muslim clerics...I think a library is a perfect place as some of these men were great scholars and philosphers.
 

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Alright, no argument here :mrgreen:

But why must the 10 commandments be in a court. Why can't all the rules for all the religions be displayed in public? And I mean all
 

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V.I. Lenin said:
Alright, no argument here :mrgreen:

But why must the 10 commandments be in a court. Why can't all the rules for all the religions be displayed in public? And I mean all
The Ten Commandments are not displayed in every court. In fact, in our Municipal Building here in Anchorage, the Bill of Rights is displayed in copper relief (I think thats how you would describe the media). And I dont really think the issue is what is displayed in a courthouse in Alabama somewhere. I think the underlying issue is really that there is no moral majority and the Falwell's and Bush's should not be in eachother's beds. Any tasteful depiction of law and order is perfectly fine with me. Notice I said TASTEFUL. Just like I would not find a depiction of Satan appropriate, I still wouldnt find a depiction of Pope Benedict appropriate either.
 

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YamiB. said:
It says Nature's God in the Declaration, which would fit more with Deism than Christianity. Some of the founding fathers were deist.

How does freedom of religion not break the first commandment? One says that you can belong to any religion; the other says you must worship the Abrahamic god.

Edit - Our government was not influenced by just one philosopher. Yes, John Locke was one of them, but there were others.
Are you sure about that Nature's god quote. And I am positive that being tolerant of other religions is in no way breaking the first comandment and neither is freedom of religon. The first comandment says "I am the lord your god thou shalt have no other gods befor me." Which means if you are a believer of the christian god and you put the reading of a book befor going to church. It means that if you are a believer of the christian god you can not make a golden calf and worship it like the israelits did while Moses was on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights I believe. So the creation of the freedom of religion in no way breaks the first comandment.

I am in agreement with Jallman that erecting a statue of satan in a united states court room would mean that we are lawless and our country is I forget what the name of what the type of government is but basically the word would mean a government that has no law and has no government(I think the word is Anarchy but I may be wrong). A country that basically roams free and without justice for crimes committed.
 
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