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Why are so many libertarians hedonists and libertines?

Guy Incognito

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?
 
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Guy Incognito

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You're comparing a political view that believes in decentralized control to christianity?

Indeed. Jesus's message (and Buddha, Muhammed, Zoroaster, etc) was that one should never initiate violence against another.

But you are wrong. Libertarianism is about noncoercion, not necessarily decentralization.
 

jmotivator

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?



I think you answered your own question. When your goal is to legalize a vice you really shouldn't be surprised that the movement attracts people who partake in that vice. That's like offering free booze and then complaining about how many drunks show up.
 

Guy Incognito

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I think you answered your own question. When your goal is to legalize a vice you really shouldn't be surprised that the movement attracts people who partake in that vice. That's like offering free booze and then complaining about how many drunks show up.

But it is equally shocking to me that self professed Christians would want to enforce virtue at the point of a gun. Libertarianism is, really, about voluntary virtue. Coercing virtue is antithetical to the espoused values of Christians.
 

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianis; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is abou non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?
How can you call yourself libertarian and not know the bias in your thought process, that keeps you from understanding the truth?

When actual libertarians talk about drugs, they talk about legalizing marihuana. Few talk about other drugs. Consider this:

1.2 Personal Privacy

Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

I don't think you would find libertarians are in favoring of legalizing all drugs under the current system of law.



1.5 Crime and Justice

Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution to the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

My point is that you will not find that libertarians advocate spending money on those who harm themselves. The individual also assumes the responsibility for his/her own action.

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

Like any party, you have those that go to the extreme. Is it fair to take a libertarian extremist (anarchists) view, and hang such things on all libertarians?

I think you will find that most libertarians will only call for legalizing "all" drugs on some protection for society, that guarantees society doesn't pay for their mistakes. Libertarians view of freedoms extends immensely, until one persons freedoms infringe on anothers.
 

Spriggs05

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?

However Libertarianism is also about free choice, people should be allowed to chose whether they want to use drugs or have sex with prostitutes. Whether or not it is moral that they use the "service". You can compare Christianity with Libertarianism but only in certain field such as the ones that you outlined. However Religion also is coercive in nature - the 10 commandments, not being allowed to marry a woman if she is not a virgin and she must be stoned if she isn't, etc. Religious people are not the epitome of moral, self discipline or "decent". Here's some famous libertarians: List of Libertarian Celebrities
How many of them are dregs or junkies?
 

jmotivator

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But it is equally shocking to me that self professed Christians would want to enforce virtue at the point of a gun. Libertarianism is, really, about voluntary virtue. Coercing virtue is antithetical to the espoused values of Christians.

I agree with you, I am Christian and I fully understand that virtue and Charity are meaningless if you are forced to do them. But the answer to why some Christians want it enforced is pretty simple, and applies to far more than legislated virtue: Power is a vice.
 

Guy Incognito

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I agree with you, I am Christian and I fully understand that virtue and Charity are meaningless if you are forced to do them. But the answer to why some Christians want it enforced is pretty simple, and applies to far more than legislated virtue: Power is a vice.
Great answer!
 

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Well existentialism killed virtue and morality, so it's only natural libertarians seek a form of governance that doesn't impose out-dated modes of thought on its people.

That being said, the central argument is a profoundly strong one: how can one be a victim of his own crime?
 

fmw

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?
I'm not a dreg or a junkie. I'm a businessman with a wife and an owned home. I don't use drugs or prostitutes. Nevertheless I understand that the reason they are not victimless crimes is that they are illegal. They would be victimless if they were legal. I don't care if someone wants to have an addiction. I care that they commit crimes in order to indulge in the addiction and I care that the trafficking element is criminal and uncontrolled. I'd rather we had a more peaceful style of addiction in our society. Prostitution is related to the drug addiction issue in many respects. The reason it is bad is that it is illegal. If it were legal then competition and private enterprise would clean it up. I don't think prostitution has much effect on the daily lives of Nevadans. Your view is religious. My view is practical.
 

CriticalThought

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?

Personal freedom does not inherently mean personal responsibility.
 

Thrilla

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?

meh, I'm a decent ,self disciplined dude.... and I smoke weed and drink whiskey... in my single wild days, i've been known to have cavorted with prostitutes.

i'm sure, according to your personal morality, that you believe i'm a "dreg" or a "junkie"... but your personal morals mean exactly dick to me.

as for the bible and Christianity, well, what I do is between me and the Lord...your moral judgements are irrelevant
 

Guy Incognito

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What is your evidence that it doesn't?

My evidence is entirely anecdotal, as is clearly indicated in the introductory post of this thread. Please pay attention.
 

the_recruit

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I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized.

I think you just answered your own question.
 

Verax

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It disgusts me. Libertarians would legalize all drugs, but that doesn't mean we should actually use them. Libertarians would legalize prostitution but that doesn't mean we should actually partake of prostitutes.

I can understand why hedonists and libertines would be attracted to libertarianism; so that their debaucheries are legalized. But at its root, libertarianism is the most Christian of political philosophies: it is about non-coercion, like Christ instructed (also Buddha, Muhammed and the prophets and teachers of every other organized religion, btw).

So why does it seem like libertarians are only dregs and junkies? Why doesnt libertarianism attract more decent, self-disciplined people?

First off I would not characterize libertarianism as "most Christian", that title would definitely go to Conservatism. Not only that but in my experience a higher than average amount of Libertarians are atheist. Second, Christianity as it is practiced today, in general, has strong elements of coercion.

As far as what Libertarianism attracts, I've found it to be a funny mix of mostly people that are quite intelligent and people that are crazy idiots.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Indeed. Jesus's message (and Buddha, Muhammed, Zoroaster, etc) was that one should never initiate violence against another.

But you are wrong. Libertarianism is about noncoercion, not necessarily decentralization.

Centralized power and liberty are mutually exclusive. Completely centralized power gives no liberty to the individual, while completely decentralized power (each individual in charge of himself) gives maximum liberty. Clearly neither extreme is conducive of a healthy, prospering society.

In christianity you have all power centralized into one being, who has absolute and total control over all of his subjects. He will use his force to throw dissenters into a fiery pit of torture. So honestly, libertarianism might be the exact OPPOSITE of christianity.

As far as the 'hedonism' goes. I don't know very many libertarians who are like "Hell yeah, let's legalize heroin and prostitution so we can bang some hookers while tripping our balls off." It comes generally from the very non-aggression principle you mentioned.

If you're upset about how many upstanding christians there are in libertarianism, I happen to know a political party that is chock full to the brim with those types, if you know what I mean.


How can you call yourself libertarian and not know the bias in your thought process, that keeps you from understanding the truth?

When actual libertarians talk about drugs, they talk about legalizing marihuana. Few talk about other drugs.

I talk about all drugs, even though I have no intention of doing anything more than pot. I think soft drugs like marijuana, shrooms, etc., should be 100% legal and sold in stores, while the harder drugs should simply be decriminalized (absolutely zero penalty for responsible use) but not available for public sale (IE: gas stations or stores).
 

LowDown

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In christianity you have all power centralized into one being, who has absolute and total control over all of his subjects. He will use his force to throw dissenters into a fiery pit of torture. So honestly, libertarianism might be the exact OPPOSITE of christianity.

Always a source of amusing caricatures of religious belief. Suffice to say that it's a lot more complicated than that; no matter what the supreme being wants the people always seem to be doing something else. Something about that gift of free will, I think. One would think that if God wanted nothing more than obedience He would have thought ahead far enough to not give people free will! But it appears He had something else in mind.

Some of the founders wrote that without Christian morality American democracy could not work. The same goes double for any conception of libertarianism in American democracy. A reasonable amount of personal restraint can help keep things from getting totally out of hand no matter how much freedom is allowed. Things getting totally out of hand becomes inevitable when there is no such restraint even when government regulations are more burdensome than usual.

We are seeing that sentiment played out these days in real life. We have a group in power now that will stop at nothing to get what they want, who are systematically tearing down the traditional restraints on government just because they think they gain some advantage from it, people who are not restrained by any sense of decency or morality or any care for the welfare and future of the country. The current spate of zombie movies points, I think, to the underlying popular notion of where this is all going -- to the day that society dissolves all around us and we are left to fend for ourselves -- libertarian paradise, as some statists would falsely and sneeringly describe it.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Always a source of amusing caricatures of religious belief. Suffice to say that it's a lot more complicated than that; no matter what the supreme being wants the people always seem to be doing something else. Something about that gift of free will, I think. One would think that if God wanted nothing more than obedience He would have thought ahead far enough to not give people free will! But it appears He had something else in mind.

Some of the founders wrote that without Christian morality American democracy could not work. The same goes double for any conception of libertarianism in American democracy. A reasonable amount of personal restraint can help keep things from getting totally out of hand no matter how much freedom is allowed. Things getting totally out of hand becomes inevitable when there is no such restraint even when government regulations are more burdensome than usual.

We are seeing that sentiment played out these days in real life. We have a group in power now that will stop at nothing to get what they want, who are systematically tearing down the traditional restraints on government just because they think they gain some advantage from it, people who are not restrained by any sense of decency or morality or any care for the welfare and future of the country. The current spate of zombie movies points, I think, to the underlying popular notion of where this is all going -- to the day that society dissolves all around us and we are left to fend for ourselves -- libertarian paradise, as some statists would falsely and sneeringly describe it.

So, to sum up your block of hyperbole:
- Having a leader who will torture you forever if you don't do what he says is free will, not tyranny.
- Without christianity, the world will fall into anarchy and immoral savagery. No one can be moral without jesus.
- Zombie movies tell us the world is afraid of dissolving, because they're not religious.

If god is telling you "do this or I'll torture you forever", how is it any different than an emperor saying "do this or I'll torture you until you die"? Neither of those situations represent free will and are completely incompatible with libertarianism.
 

JayDubya

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This is a bit ridiculous; I don't partake of any vice, unless you count video games or not-particularly-healthy food.

I don't see a logical reason why the vices other people might want to take part in should not be legal; the only things that should be illegal are actions that aggressively hurt others.

There's not that much by way of debauchery in my peer group, dude. Libertarian political beliefs does not correlate to personal libertine behavior. YMMV, and apparently it does.
 

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Libertarianism does attract decent, self-disciplined people.
Absolutely. I would say more than other parties do. The fringe elements though... Wow...

As much as I like most the people that make up the party, I never have liked most of the candidates. Like all other politicians, they try to appease too many people rather than be leaders.
 
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