• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Who's got the true facts about J6?

soap box

A Lincoln democrat
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
10,023
Reaction score
7,711
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
There is a mathematical understanding of random events. There is a scientific understanding of cause and effect. Neither is perfect for an examination of political events since we can’t remove all the variables and test a hypothesis. But we can discuss whether or not the facts lead to a reasonable conclusion. We can also discuss whether or not events happen by chance or if they were intentional.

After this post I am posting two timelines. I believe these timelines are factually correct.

If you believe a line or lines in the timeline is incorrect or false, please post an explanation.

Some issues have been left out for lack of conclusive evidence. If you think something needs to be added, please post an explanation.

Some lines have been shortened to avoid a partisan interpretation. If you disagree, please post to explain.

Can we cite the evidence and facts to draw a conclusion? Either way, yes or no?

The question is :

Is there evidence that Trump and the White House were preparing to subvert the Electoral College?
 
Nov. 4, 2020

Trump gives a speech on election night, after midnight local time. He predicts that votes will appear later, and that the Supreme Court will be called on to settle the matter,

We want the law to be used in a proper manner. So we’ll be going to the US Supreme Court. We want all voting to stop. We don’t want them to find any ballots at four o’clock in the morning and add them to the list.”



Nov 4

Mark Meadows receives a text urging that GA, NC, PA and other Republican controlled state legislatures declare to send their own electors and have the question decided by SCOTUS.





Six swing states have not been decided, millions of votes have still not been counted nationwide.



Nov 7

News outlets begin a collective projection that Biden has won.



Nov 9

  • US AG Barr issues a directive allowing federal prosecutors more leeway to widen voter fraud investigations.
  • Trump fires Secretary of Defense Mark Esper. He is replaced by Christopher Miller.


Nov 12

National Association of State Election Directors and CISA issue a joint statement, “There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.



Nov 12 and 13

Trump removes senior Defense Department Officials and replaces them with appointments to ‘acting’ roles.



Nov 17

Trump tweeted that Christopher Krebs, Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, CISA, would resign.



Nov 19

Guiliani and Powell begin a series of press conferences.



White House Communications Director Alyssa Farah resigns.



Nov 20

Wisconsin Voters Alliance et al. v. Pence et al.

First lawsuit related to the 2020 election is filed. 61 more will follow before January 6th 2021.



Dec 1

Barr tells AP reporters "To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,"

"There's been one assertion that would be systemic fraud and that would be the claim that machines were programmed essentially to skew the election results," Barr said. "And the DHS and DOJ have looked into that, and so far, we haven't seen anything to substantiate that."

Barr later confronts Trump at the White House about the lack of evidence.



Dec 14

  • Barr announces his resignation and Deputy Attorney General Jeff Rosen is named as acting AG .
  • State Legislatures certify their Electoral College delegates.


Dec 15

Rosen meets with Trump at the White House. According to Rosen’s testimony to the Senate, Trump wanted him to appoint a special counsel to investigate fraud and to take further action in states like GA, MI, and PA. Rosen declined to agree.



Mitch McConnell acknowledges Biden won the election.



continued -
 
From post 2 -


Dec 19 Tweet:

@realDonaldTrump

Tweet: “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th, Be there, will be wild!”



Dec 22

Mark Meadows visits Cobb County Civic Center to observe and ask questions of voter signatures on absentee ballot envelopes.



Dec 23

Trump meets with Jeffrey Clark at the White House. They meet daily for the next two weeks.



Dec 24

Trump calls Rosen and repeats requests that voter fraud is investigated in AZ and PA.



Dec 28

Clark sends a draft letter to DOJ leadership urging that the Governors and Legislatures should hold emergency sessions and recall their Electoral College slates.



About Jan 1st, 2021

John Eastman finalizes a plan in a memo that outlines the process of objecting to a state EC delegate slate. The memo ends with the claim, “The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter.”



Jan 2

Mike Lee declares to Mark Meadows and Steven Miller that no state legislature is willing to change their Electoral College slate. Further, no states have declared a special session to change their state EC delegates.



  • Eastman visits the White House each day during the first week of January.

  • Trump speaks to The Georgia Secretary of State and asks if 11, 780 could be found


Jan 3

Mark Meadows sends a text to an unnamed congressman saying that Trump "thinks the legislatures have the power but that the Vp has power too."



Jan 4

U.S. Attorney Jay Pak resigns after he refuses to comply with White House demands.



Jan 5

Meeting at the Willard Hotel: Guiliani, Bannon, Jenna Eliss, and Bernard Kerik are visited by Stone and Flynn. Phone calls and texts were made to include and coordinate pivotal members such as Cruz, Gosar in the points of the Eastman plan. The next day, these contacts in Congress were called the ‘Green Bay Sweep’ . Stone had contact with members of the Proud Boys but contacts between Bannon and other group members who participated in the riot are not substantiated presently.



Jim Jordan forwards a text to Mark Meadows to update progress with details of the points in the Eastman memo.
 
Wednesday, January 6, 2021





Tweet 8:17 a.m.

@realDonaldTrump

“States want to correct their votes, which they now know were based on irregularities and fraud, plus corrupt process never received legislative approval. All Mike Pence has to do is send them back to the States, AND WE WIN. Do it Mike, this is a time for extreme courage!”



11:00 a.m.

Supporters fill the Ellipse for the Stop the Steal rally. Speeches are given by Guiliani, Brooks, Eastman and others.



12:00

Trump begins his speech that lasts about 70 minutes.

"I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so. Because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election."

"All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people”




Trump does not actually say “peace” anytime in the speech. He does use “peacefully” only once;

“I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”

In the entirety, Trump uses the word “fight” to say ‘argue’ or ‘debate’ 18 times. The use of the word occurs the last three times almost at the end of the speech differently since the context is not to discuss matters.



“And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. ”



12:30

A crowd begins to form outside the capitol perimeter.



1:00

  • The outer Barricade, west of the Capitol is overrun by protesters.
  • Inside, Senators walk toward the House Chamber


1:05

Congress begins a joint session, Pence submits a public letter,

“My oath to support and defend the Constitution constrains me from claiming unilateral authority,”



1:10

Trumps ends his speech at the Ellipse.







1:12

Rep. Paul A. Gosar (R-Ariz.) and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.), object to certifying Arizona’s electoral college votes. The joint session is adjourned; debate is to begin in both chambers.



1:30

The bulk of the crowd from the Ellipse fills Pennsylvania Ave.



1:35

House Sergeant At Arms calls for help. District of Columbia Mayor Muriel Bowser requests additional troops.



1:35

McConnell begins speaking and predicts in Senate deliberations, “The voters, the courts, and the stage have all spoken. They’ve all spoken. If we overrule them, it would damage our Republic forever. This election, actually, was not unusually close. Just in recent history, 1976, 2000 and 2004 were all closer on this one. The Electoral College margin is almost identical to what it was in 2016. This election were overturned by mere allegations from the losing side, our democracy would enter a death spiral.”



1:35

Pipe bombs are discovered near both Party Headquarters.



1:46

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., calls Jared Kushner, asking Kushner to persuade Trump to urge the rioters to leave the Capitol.



1:49

Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund calls Major General William Walker, commanding general of the D.C. National Guard, to request assistance.



2:00 to 4:20

Sean Hannity, Laura Ingram, Donald T Jr. and others send texts to Mark Meadows.



2:11

  • Protesters breach the Capitol, enter the building
  • House Sergeant at Arms Irving calls Chief Sund with formal approval to request National Guard support.


2:20

Both Houses adjourn deliberations on a vote to reject the objections and all evacuate to undisclosed shelters.



Tweet : 2:24 p.m.

@realDonaldTrump

Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!”



2:30

Secretary of Defense, (Miller) ,Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, (Milley) and the Army Secretary (McCarthy ) meet to discuss intervention at the Capitol.



Tweet : 2:38 p.m.

@realDonaldTrump

“Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!”



2:44


Ashli Babbitt is shot.



3:04

Secretary Miller formally approves “activation” of the DCNG. Miller did not approve an operational plan to deploy the National Guard until 4:32



Tweet: 3:13 p.m.

@realDonaldTrump

“I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!”



3:20

Rep. McCarthy speaks to Trump by phone.
 
4:17

Tweet @realDonaldTrump (video)

"We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side. But you have to go home now,we have to have peace. We have to have law and order.... So go home. We love you, you're very special.... I know how you feel. But go home and go home in peace."



4:18

National Guard members and State Troopers from Maryland and Virginia are deployed to D.C.



5:40

National Guard members begin to arrive at Capitol Hill. The violence has lessened inside the building. The rioters are contained inside and police begin to clear the Capitol.



Tweet : 6:01 p.m.

@realDonaldTrump

“These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”



7:30

Rudy Guiliani mistakenly leaves a voice message explaining that the strategy has changed to that of having the slates returned to their state legislatures. This was the ‘100’ members who were expected to vote to reject.



8:06

Pence begins the session in the senate, the objection is voted down without debate.



9:00

Pelosi brings the House into session.



January 7, 2021


3:42 a.m. Both houses have rejected the objections, the joint session of Congress reconvenes, Pence declares Biden to be President.

After the confirmation, Mitch McConnell rose to say this;

“The United States and the United States Congress have faced down much greater threats than the unhinged crowd we saw today. We've never been deterred before, and we will not be deterred today. They tried to disrupt our democracy. They failed. They failed. They failed to attempt to obstruct the Congress.

This failed insurrection only underscores how crucial the task before us is for our republic. Our nation was founded precisely so that the free choice of the American people is what shapes our self-government and determines the destiny of our nation – not fear, not force, but the peaceful expression of the popular will.

Now, we assembled this afternoon to count our citizens' votes and to formalize their choice of the next president. Now we're going to finish exactly what we started. We'll complete the process the right way by the book. We'll follow our precedents, our laws and our Constitution to the letter. And we will certify the winner of the 2020 presidential election. Criminal behavior will never dominate the United States Congress. This institution is resilient. Our democratic republic is strong.

The American people deserve nothing less.”
 
I think it's pretty clear what happened.

As far as Trump, he gave them exactly the riot they got.

Not so much to subvert Congress, but he metered out according to the frustration he felt and according to what he was given. He was not given to hang Mike Pence or behead Congress.

That is what I say the charge is inciting to riot, for which he is already tried.
 
I think it's pretty clear what happened.

As far as Trump, he gave them exactly the riot they got.

Not so much to subvert Congress, but he metered out according to the frustration he felt and according to what he was given. He was not given to hang Mike Pence or behead Congress.

That is what I say the charge is inciting to riot, for which he is already tried.


Trump has not been tried in a court of law for inciting a riot. An impeachment trial is not a criminal trial, nor does it occur in a court of law, though it is a lawful process. It is a political process, and constitutional.
 
i only trust Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson.
 

Who's got the true facts about J6?​


You seem to be laying out a prosecutors case. But in the case of Mr. Trump, it isn't an easy case to make because he always equivocates on every single issue.

He throws red meat to his blood thirsty minions, but then back pedals with some equivocating language, and it all seem quite calculated in the end. The buzz words trigger his mob, but the tempering speech never reaches their ears. He's constantly flip-flopping, sometimes even in the same paragraph. It's all about giving mixed messages with him. Once the mob is incited, nobody remembers his contradictions until they try to pin something on him, whereupon he can always say, "But I also said ___________". As the political P.T. Barnum of his age, he's a master at manipulating his moronic masses.

"This way to the Egress!"
 
There is a mathematical understanding of random events. There is a scientific understanding of cause and effect. Neither is perfect for an examination of political events since we can’t remove all the variables and test a hypothesis. But we can discuss whether or not the facts lead to a reasonable conclusion. We can also discuss whether or not events happen by chance or if they were intentional.

After this post I am posting two timelines. I believe these timelines are factually correct.

If you believe a line or lines in the timeline is incorrect or false, please post an explanation.

Some issues have been left out for lack of conclusive evidence. If you think something needs to be added, please post an explanation.

Some lines have been shortened to avoid a partisan interpretation. If you disagree, please post to explain.

Can we cite the evidence and facts to draw a conclusion? Either way, yes or no?

The question is :

Is there evidence that Trump and the White House were preparing to subvert the Electoral College?

The answer to your question is "NO".

The FBI provided that answer.

The Current Witch Hunt conducted by the Current Lynch Mob, the latest of many, is trying to pervert the facts and they are working hard to deceive the weak minded.
 
The answer to your question is "NO".

The FBI provided that answer.

The Current Witch Hunt conducted by the Current Lynch Mob, the latest of many, is trying to pervert the facts and they are working hard to deceive the weak minded.
Are you sure the FBI has finished their investigation?

Could you give an example, just one might suffice, of a fact they have perverted?
 
The answer to your question is "NO".

The FBI provided that answer.

The Current Witch Hunt conducted by the Current Lynch Mob, the latest of many, is trying to pervert the facts and they are working hard to deceive the weak minded.
The first FBI report was in the summer, a few things have been revealed since then,


"Attorney General Merrick Garland pledged Wednesday to pursue the perpetrators of the Jan. 6 assault at "any level," saying federal authorities would "follow the facts wherever they lead."

He also noted that the FBI does not comment on pending investigations.
 
Are you sure the FBI has finished their investigation?

Could you give an example, just one might suffice, of a fact they have perverted?

The January 6 rally hosted about 30,000 people.

About 700 have been charged with violations ranging from parading to sedition. Only a very, VERY few have been charged with Sedition and they will likely not be convicted of sedition.

The lie being spread by them and amplified by the weak minded is that half of the country is represented by the 35 or so folks who have been charged with violation beyond the level of parading.

Why was Ashli Babbitt shot? Who is Ray Epps?
 
The January 6 rally hosted about 30,000 people.

About 700 have been charged with violations ranging from parading to sedition. Only a very, VERY few have been charged with Sedition and they will likely not be convicted of sedition.

The lie being spread by them and amplified by the weak minded is that half of the country is represented by the 35 or so folks who have been charged with violation beyond the level of parading.

Why was Ashli Babbitt shot? Who is Ray Epps?

Why do you think it is likely those charged with sedition will not be convicted?
 
The first FBI report was in the summer, a few things have been revealed since then,


"Attorney General Merrick Garland pledged Wednesday to pursue the perpetrators of the Jan. 6 assault at "any level," saying federal authorities would "follow the facts wherever they lead."

He also noted that the FBI does not comment on pending investigations.

Merrick Garland is, sadly, a political operative running a secret police force.

The good news is that he was prevented from perverting the SCOTUS.

The FBI was advertised as an "Untouchable" gold standard of good ethics and high morals at the time that J. Edgar Hoover had files on everyone in Washington DC used to control them.

He knew where "all the bodies were buried" because he was the one who buried them.

It has been shown time and time again that the FBI is a corrupt and politically biased gang of internal spies that is used to attack and control US Citizens.

It needs to be shut down.

Who is Ray Epps?
 
Merrick Garland is, sadly, a political operative running a secret police force.

The good news is that he was prevented from perverting the SCOTUS.

The FBI was advertised as an "Untouchable" gold standard of good ethics and high morals at the time that J. Edgar Hoover had files on everyone in Washington DC used to control them.

He knew where "all the bodies were buried" because he was the one who buried them.

It has been shown time and time again that the FBI is a corrupt and politically biased gang of internal spies that is used to attack and control US Citizens.

It needs to be shut down.

Who is Ray Epps?
ok, but in the mean time, the FBI wants answers and I do too.
 
Merrick Garland is, sadly, a political operative running a secret police force.

The good news is that he was prevented from perverting the SCOTUS.

The FBI was advertised as an "Untouchable" gold standard of good ethics and high morals at the time that J. Edgar Hoover had files on everyone in Washington DC used to control them.

He knew where "all the bodies were buried" because he was the one who buried them.

It has been shown time and time again that the FBI is a corrupt and politically biased gang of internal spies that is used to attack and control US Citizens.

It needs to be shut down.

Who is Ray Epps?
I have seen the same videos and read the same articles everyone else has seen and read about Roy Epps. I am not aware of any true fact that has been presented anywhere that would tie him to the FBI, and the same is true for the lack of evidence that the FBI had some crazy idea to send people inside the capitol.
 
The January 6 rally hosted about 30,000 people.

About 700 have been charged with violations ranging from parading to sedition. Only a very, VERY few have been charged with Sedition and they will likely not be convicted of sedition.

The lie being spread by them and amplified by the weak minded is that half of the country is represented by the 35 or so folks who have been charged with violation beyond the level of parading.

Why was Ashli Babbitt shot? Who is Ray Epps?
Ashli Babbit ignored an officer's orders. I regret that it happened, i dont condone it, just saying what the facts are.
 
Merrick Garland is, sadly, a political operative running a secret police force.

The good news is that he was prevented from perverting the SCOTUS.

The FBI was advertised as an "Untouchable" gold standard of good ethics and high morals at the time that J. Edgar Hoover had files on everyone in Washington DC used to control them.

He knew where "all the bodies were buried" because he was the one who buried them.

It has been shown time and time again that the FBI is a corrupt and politically biased gang of internal spies that is used to attack and control US Citizens.

It needs to be shut down.

Who is Ray Epps?
Didn't you post something else about proof?
I posted this as factual true events. I didn't claim that there is proof in this timeline, but I do claim that we can understand the motives and actions of the WH better when events are understood in the order they occurred.
 
" Travis County made the decision to reject these mail ballot applications before contacting our office. We call on Travis County to immediately review and re-examine the mail ballot applications in question to determine whether they were processed in accordance with state law, with the goal of reinstating and minimizing any disruption to eligible voters who have properly submitted their application for ballot by mail. We anxiously await the results of their re-processing of these mail ballot applications."

"We urge all county election officials to contact the Texas Secretary of State's office to seek advice and assistance on the correct method of processing mail ballot applications."


That's it?? They're hoping? They "anxiously await" ? ?

Maybe someone else can help us figure this out - the SOS mentioned Travis County, ok maybe she knows more about this -

" At a press conference Tuesday, Travis County Clerk Dana DeBeauvoir described the difficulty voters are having requesting vote-by-mail ballots, concluding, “My friends, this is what voter suppression looks like.”


Oh, I see.... So the rate has come down to a bothersome 29% rejection rate. After getting help from the SoS office
 
Why do you think it is likely those charged with sedition will not be convicted?

It's a very difficult charge to prove. The line between free speech and seditious speech is a fairly vague one that's hard to make clear in front of jury.
 
It's a very difficult charge to prove. The line between free speech and seditious speech is a fairly vague one that's hard to make clear in front of jury.
Do you think any of the participants of Jan 6 are being charged with seditious speech?
 

Who's got the true facts about J6?​


You seem to be laying out a prosecutors case. But in the case of Mr. Trump, it isn't an easy case to make because he always equivocates on every single issue.

He throws red meat to his blood thirsty minions, but then back pedals with some equivocating language, and it all seem quite calculated in the end. The buzz words trigger his mob, but the tempering speech never reaches their ears. He's constantly flip-flopping, sometimes even in the same paragraph. It's all about giving mixed messages with him. Once the mob is incited, nobody remembers his contradictions until they try to pin something on him, whereupon he can always say, "But I also said ___________". As the political P.T. Barnum of his age, he's a master at manipulating his moronic masses.

"This way to the Egress!"
Yea....But Trump's fervor and power madness got the better of him here though. He surely did equivocate in some of his bleating to his cultish followers. But there is no equivocation to be found in his pressure campaign on Pence and things like "find me 11,790 votes" to the Georgia Sec of State. As I have expressed elsewhere, the violent Insurrectionists at the Capitol while physically threatening were not nearly as dangerous to the Republic as Trump and gang and their marginally less violent efforts with Pence, within DOJ and at state levels with Sec of State and Election Officials. That is what bothers me about all this attention on the violence at the Capitol. That is A story....but it's not THE story.
 
It's a very difficult charge to prove. The line between free speech and seditious speech is a fairly vague one that's hard to make clear in front of jury.

When was the last conviction for sedition? Knowingly conspiring to use force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of the law is not free speech.
 
Back
Top Bottom