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Who trusts Tesla, Musk?

Fledermaus said:
So what?

Two idiots not in the driver's seat is the cause of this incident.
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What if the guy in the passenger set said

"Look, we don't have the full option yet, so if I press that switch it won't engage, it can't work on this road either because there are no markings, this is what Tesla say in their documentation, look, I'll press the switch to show you what it does and we'll get the message about this being unavailable. Oh shit, look, that's odd, the bitch seems to have engaged but should not, f**k she's moving and accelerating but this can't happen, what the..."
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CRASH - BURN.

Yet you and the other know alls here are steadfastly convinced for some reason that nothing like this happened, that nothing like this can happen, that's faith, faith in Lord Musk.

As an experienced software engineer I can attest that this kind of thing can and does happen all the time, in your phone, your TV, your gadgets, it happens regularly yet the consequences are mostly frustration and a simple "reboot" makes everything nice again.

These software systems are becoming harder and harder to test, we are accepting them too easily, we are trusting them too easily.

Complex systems like this can get into unanticipated states and once in those state their future behavior becomes unpredictable because nobody tested for that state and that state was never foreseen.

All these systems are finite state machines, that's what they are and in an FSM the systems reaction to an event is a function of history, a function of the current state and if the current state is unexpected or unplanned absolute chaos can unfold.

This is pretty much the reason we are forced to reboot our gadgets, it is the only way to get them into a known, safe, tested state once they get into an invalid state.

All software including Tesla's suffers from this risk and the modern pace of getting stuff out the door fast means not enough testing is done, not enough debugging is done.
 
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Sherlock Holmes said:
What if the guy in the passenger set said "Look, we don't have the full option yet, so if I press that switch it won't engage, it can't work on this road either because there are no markings, this is what Tesla say in their documentation, look, I'll press the switch to show you what it does and we'll get the message about this being unavailable. Oh shit, look, that's odd, the bitch seems to have engaged but should not, f**k she's moving and accelerating but this can't happen, what the..."

CRASH - BURN.
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The cause of this crash are two idiots not doing the right thing.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
But Musk is just one idiot (OPINION), how did you count two?
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Your OPINION is noted about Musk.

Reality shows your OPINION to be lacking in substance and fact.

And two is the number noted in every article about this incident.

I would change your avatar and user name if I were you.
 
Fledermaus said:
The cause of this crash are two idiots not doing the right thing.
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Let me ask you, should a semi-auto have a safety catch on it, if you were buying one for a teenager, would you care if it had a safety catch?
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
What if the guy in the passenger set said



CRASH - BURN.

Yet you and the other know alls here are steadfastly convinced for some reason that nothing like this happened, that nothing like this can happen, that's faith, faith in Lord Musk. (1)

As an experienced software engineer I can attest that this kind of thing can and does happen all the time, in your phone, your TV, your gadgets, it happens regularly yet the consequences are mostly frustration and a simple "reboot" makes everything nice again. (2)

These software systems are becoming harder and harder to test, we are accepting them too easily, we are trusting them too easily. (3)

Complex systems like this can get into unanticipated states and once in those state their future behavior becomes unpredictable because nobody tested for that state and that state was never foreseen. (4)

All these systems are finite state machines, that's what they are and in an FSM the systems reaction to an event is a function of history, a function of the current state and if the current state is unexpected or unplanned absolute chaos can unfold. (5)

This is pretty much the reason we are forced to reboot our gadgets, it is the only way to get them into a known, safe, tested state once they get into an invalid state. (6)

All software including Tesla's suffers from this risk and the modern pace of getting stuff out the door fast means not enough testing is done, not enough debugging is done. (7)
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1. Evidence shows two idiots caused this crash.

2. Irrelevant to this incident.

3. Opinion

4., 5., 6. Irrelevant to this incident.

7. Opinion, and irrelevant to this incident.
 
Fledermaus said:
1. Evidence shows two idiots caused this crash.

2. Irrelevant to this incident.

3. Opinion

4., 5., 6. Irrelevant to this incident.

7. Opinion, and irrelevant to this incident.
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Well clearly you know very little about the computer aspects of all this, so I don't see how you can meaningfully contribute when this is ultimately about software, its reliability, integrity and safety, that's why this is in the Science and Technology forum.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
Well clearly you know very little about the computer aspects of all this, so I don't see how you can meaningfully contribute when this is ultimately about software, its reliability, integrity and safety.
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It appears from our posts that I know far more than you in regards to this incident and the computer systems of a Tesla.

I am not the one throwing more shit on the wall hoping something sticks.

Once the operator ignores or bypasses safety protocols they become the reason something bad happens.
 
Fledermaus said:
Once the operator ignores or bypasses safety protocols they become the reason something bad happens.
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Unless there are bugs (and there are always bugs) in which case the operator is at the mercy of whatever the unstable system decides to do.
 
Fledermaus said:
Irrelevant to the incident we have been discussing.

Once the operator ignores or bypasses safety protocols they become the reason something bad happens.
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Yes but if there are bugs then how can you confidently attribute blame? what if the operator performs a valid, legal action but the system is in a bad state and misbehaves? does not do what the operator reasonably expects it to do?

If I take my Smith Wesson model 29 out for a spin and fire off some shots and the cylinder explodes firing shrapnel into my face or my companion's face, is that by definition, 100% absolutely my fault?

Get real man, stop arguing with reality.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
Yes but if there are bugs then how can you confidently attribute blame? what if the operator performs a valid, legal action but the system is in a bad state and misbehaves? does not do what the operator reasonably expects it to do?

If I take my Smith Wesson model 29 out for a spin and fire off some shots and the cylinder explodes firing shrapnel into my face or my companion's face, is that by definition, 100% absolutely my fault?

Get real man, stop arguing with reality.
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If...

If a frog had wings he wouldn't need a water tight ass.

If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

In this incident stupid people did stupid things.

Get real man, stop arguing with evidence, logic and reality.
 
Fledermaus said:
If...

If a frog had wings he wouldn't need a water tight ass.

If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

In this incident stupid people did stupid things.

Get real man, stop arguing with evidence, logic and reality.
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Had a feeling you'd be afraid to answer honestly, oh well, nothing new there, by the way what's your real name? Elon Musk perhaps?

:LOL:
 
It's sad to think that Sherlock may never again own a new car, given his irrational fear of automotive software that the bedrock of every ADAS system there is from every OEM out there. Fortunately they still breed horses for people like him.
 
phoenix2020 said:
It's sad to think that Sherlock may never again own a new car, given his irrational fear of automotive software that the bedrock of every ADAS system there is from every OEM out there. Fortunately they still breed horses for people like him.
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After self owning himself in the OP he's now obsessed with a conspiracy theory about Teslas magically starting, driving themselves and killing the owners resting in the back seat.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
Had a feeling you'd be afraid to answer honestly, oh well, nothing new there, by the way what's your real name? Elon Musk perhaps?

:LOL:
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Really interesting point. I guess by that logic that would make you a Tesla shorter with a chip on his shoulder.

Sherlock Holmes said:
Yes but if there are bugs then how can you confidently attribute blame? what if the operator performs a valid, legal action but the system is in a bad state and misbehaves? does not do what the operator reasonably expects it to do?

If I take my Smith Wesson model 29 out for a spin and fire off some shots and the cylinder explodes firing shrapnel into my face or my companion's face, is that by definition, 100% absolutely my fault?

Get real man, stop arguing with reality.
Click to expand...

Another good point. I read once that a gun was fired and the cylinder did indeed explode. I'm looking forward to your thread about gun manufacturers, their CEOs and the lies they peddle and how we need to stop selling all guns because some of them might explode. After all, who really knows how those things are designed.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
After self owning himself in the OP he's now obsessed with a conspiracy theory about Teslas magically starting, driving themselves and killing the owners resting in the back seat.
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You keep speaking of magic, yet this is not magic, its science, computers and state machines gone crazy, no need for magic here only science.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
After self owning himself in the OP he's now obsessed with a conspiracy theory about Teslas magically starting, driving themselves and killing the owners resting in the back seat.
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This thread reads like the debate board equivalent of a poker player in full tilt.
 
In any case, while I think Elon Musk is a braggart with a Trumpian tendency to overpromise and underdeliver, I think the vehicles themselves are fantastically engineered. We've had them in our household for five years now and could never imagine going back. Between the simply outstanding chassis tuning and vehicle dynamics, the rock-solid reliability and maintenance free operation, extremely low cost of ownership and numerous safety advantages (from ADAS to low CoG to crash structure) we love the cars. We don't use any of the auto-pilot functions - having to touch the wheel every 30 seconds is enough of a headache that I don't bother with it.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
You keep speaking of magic, yet this is not magic, its science, computers and state machines gone crazy, no need for magic here only science.
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Says the person who insists that we investigate the invisible tigers in his backyard because he has absolutely no evidence that there are any invisible tigers there, but has some suspicions and once read some internet posts about invisible tiger infestations.
 
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