Who made god?

[kal-el]

Technically everything is a theroy made up by man. We still dont know for a fact where we came from or who started it or if there was a intelligent designer. Yes there are clues substantiating each possibility but we still dont have without a reasonable doubt a scientific law. This whole discussion is a pi$$ing contest because everyone has their own opinioons and ideals and beliefs on what happened.

Yes, we don't know beyond the shadow of a doubt where we came from. Some people will cling to "blind faith", but believing in something is 1 thing, proving it is another, and throwing too much stock in a simple book, which was always written by man is foolish.:2razz: But on the other hand, it could be right, who the hell knows, I doubt it though, but our life is simply a succession of moments, and each moment is linked to the next moment with a dynamic theme, either positive or negative. What I'm saying is we should live each moment like it is the last, because this may be the only life we have.

A matter a fact all religion discussions are pi$$ contests. I mean I can talk about how much the christian faith is the way to go and the next day I can become a buddha and then the next become a shintao and then next month become a Mormon and tell you that Joseph Smith has it all together and we must follow him and give the church of latter day saints half my income. :lol: The point I am getting at is everyone has their beleifs and everyone has evidenciary support for each. So to say your theory is better is total BS because your theory is just as credible as the other.

Correct, but I never said my theory was better than anyone's. But IMO religion is people's "security blanket", so to speak. They don't want to be alone. They want something to believe in, and want to be told what to think. When I said people don't want to be lonely, religion fills that void. We are born alone, you alone make your own decisions, and we all die alone. Solitude is an absolute truth.

 

[The Real McCoy]

What? I prefer to think outside the box, and question how we came about, instead of just dumbly beliveing an "omnipotent",magical, entity is behind everything.:2razz:

You "think outside the box" and yet you claim God does not exist with absolutely NO evidence or logical argument to support your claim.

Oh so I assume, god wasn't created? Dude, something can't come up out of nothing. Everything has to be made of something, if it weren't it wouldn't exist- hence your imaginary man in the clouds!:lol: Can you prove "God" exists. I doubt it. Just like I can't prove he dosen't. That's where faith comes in. But remember, faith requires no evidence, hence the term "blind faith."

Once again, you constrain God to the laws of the universe we live in (the universe he created.) God exists in the realm of the metaphysical where there is no beginning and no end, unlike in the physical universe. This seems to be a concept you are unable to grasp. Can I prove God exists? No. But I can provide evidence that he does exist:

-The utter failures of Godless nations

-Phenomena such as the Hourglass Nebula which science cannot and probably never will explain.

-The fact that people, atheist or not, subconsciously say things like "Oh my God" on a daily basis (in the middle of sex for example.)

-The beauty, complexity and ordered design of the universe, the earth, and life itself.

-The ability of our minds to logically reason, an impossible product of chaotic randomness.




Now, where's your evidence that God does not exist?

 

[The Real McCoy]

Technically everything is a theroy made up by man.

I wasn't aware the sun was a theory made up by man. Are you a theory made up by man, SKILMATIC?

 

[UtahBill]

Correct, but I never said my theory was better than anyone's. But IMO religion is people's "security blanket", so to speak. They don't want to be alone. They want something to believe in, and want to be told what to think. When I said people don't want to be lonely, religion fills that void. We are born alone, you alone make your own decisions, and we all die alone. Solitude is an absolute truth.

And we all know how upset Linus gets when Snoopy snags his security blanket. That is why I think we should allow people their security blankets. I don't get why some athiests can't just disbelieve without going out of their way to antagonize religionists, but there it is. Likewise, some religionists don't want to allow others freedom from religion.
As long as either side allows the other to believe as they wish, we can all more easily live together without conflict.
If God exists, I suspect that God made God. If He does not, then obviously man invented God, for his own purposes.
Time will tell.

 

[kal-el]

You "think outside the box" and yet you claim God does not exist with absolutely NO evidence or logical argument to support your claim.

Because it's impossible to prove a negative.:lol: But, the burden to prove falls on the believer, not the doubter.

Once again, you constrain God to the laws of the universe we live in (the universe he created.) God exists in the realm of the metaphysical where there is no beginning and no end, unlike in the physical universe. This seems to be a concept you are unable to grasp. Can I prove God exists? No. But I can provide evidence that he does exist:

-The utter failures of Godless nations

-Phenomena such as the Hourglass Nebula which science cannot and probably never will explain.

-The fact that people, atheist or not, subconsciously say things like "Oh my God" on a daily basis (in the middle of sex for example.)

-The beauty, complexity and ordered design of the universe, the earth, and life itself.

-The ability of our minds to logically reason, an impossible product of chaotic randomness.




Now, where's your evidence that God does not exist?

Dude, sorry to rain on your little parade, but that is anything but evidence; blind percepts maybe, but definetly not potential or imperical evidence. We all control our own destiny's. To imply that a "divine" god controls everything, is taking away our free will, in other words it's saying that we are simply powerless pawns in some sort of "divine" game being played out.:2razz:

I grasp your concept very well actually. Time stretches each way toward infinity. Whichever way we look in, the universe continues forever. When we say such things as "time flys", that's incorrect. Time dosen't exist in itself. We are "travellers of time and not in time. We all started this journey, some sooner than others.

If we live in the universe he created, someone or something had to create your "god". As I said, something cannot come from nothing, or else it wouldn't exist. It is an easy application: our solar system is part of a galaxy, which itself is part of a universe. It can't exist in nothing. It is simply 1 universe among an infinite number of them, which together make up something bigger, and that a part of something even bigger, so on to infinity. So in order for your "God" to actually exist, he has to be somewhere.

 

[kal-el]

And we all know how upset Linus gets when Snoopy snags his security blanket. That is why I think we should allow people their security blankets. I don't get why some athiests can't just disbelieve without going out of their way to antagonize religionists, but there it is. Likewise, some religionists don't want to allow others freedom from religion.
As long as either side allows the other to believe as they wish, we can all more easily live together without conflict.
If God exists, I suspect that God made God. If He does not, then obviously man invented God, for his own purposes.
Time will tell.

Yes, people can believe as they wish. But a belief is not a proof. It's a "blind postulation".

What do you mean god made god? He made himself? You're not making sense here.:2razz:

 

[UtahBill]

Because it's impossible to prove a negative.:lol: But, the burden to prove falls on the believer, not the doubter.
.

A true believer should not be concerned with proving it to non-believers, and non-believers should not care if the believer is deluding himself.
Or perhaps someone can explain why either side is so intent on proving or disproving. Will someone be saved from sin, or ignorance, or what?

 

[UtahBill]

Yes, people can believe as they wish. But a belief is not a proof. It's a "blind postulation".

What do you mean god made god? He made himself? You're not making sense here.:2razz:

Fairly simple, IF God exists, who else could have made him?:smile:
The whole issue is never going to make sense to everyone.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Because it's impossible to prove a negative.:lol: But, the burden to prove falls on the believer, not the doubter.

You are not a doubter, you are a denier. Doubters have reason to doubt God, deniers have no reason to deny God.

Dude, sorry to rain on your little parade, but that is anything but evidence; blind percepts maybe, but definetly not potential or imperical evidence. We all control our own destiny's. To imply that a "divine" god controls everything, is taking away our free will, in other words it's saying that we are simply powerless pawns in some sort of "divine" game being played out.:2razz:

When did I ever say or imply God controls everything? He created the universe and humanity, giving us free-will. You're absolutely right in saying we control our own destinies, one of the few things you've been right about. Explain to me how the examples I gave are "blind percepts."

I grasp your concept very well actually. Time stretches each way toward infinity. Whichever way we look in, the universe continues forever. When we say such things as "time flys", that's incorrect. Time dosen't exist in itself. We are "travellers of time and not in time. We all started this journey, some sooner than others.

Wrong again. The universe has been scientifically proven to have a beginning and therefore does not stretch backwards to infinity.

If we live in the universe he created, someone or something had to create your "god". As I said, something cannot come from nothing, or else it wouldn't exist. It is an easy application: our solar system is part of a galaxy, which itself is part of a universe. It can't exist in nothing. It is simply 1 universe among an infinite number of them, which together make up something bigger, and that a part of something even bigger, so on to infinity. So in order for your "God" to actually exist, he has to be somewhere.

You just don't get it. You still cannot grasp the concept that God exists OUTSIDE of the physical universe, outside of space and time and therefore is not subject to temporal or physical laws. And like I've said before: the universe does not "exist in nothing." Outside of the physical universe lies the infinite realm of the metaphysical. GOD IS NOT PHYSICAL.

 

[kal-el]

You are not a doubter, you are a denier. Doubters have reason to doubt God, deniers have no reason to deny God.

It makes little difference what "category" you fit me in.:2razz: The whole thing comes down to the fact that I don't buy into fairy stories. Still, you must provide proof or evidence, hence you're the believer.

When did I ever say or imply God controls everything? He created the universe and humanity, giving us free-will. You're absolutely right in saying we control our own destinies, one of the few things you've been right about. Explain to me how the examples I gave are "blind percepts."

Sure thing.:2razz: First you said

The utter failures of Godless nations

That's wishful thinking being depicted as factual on your part. A "blind percept", since you have no proof.

Then you went on to say:

Phenomena such as the Hourglass Nebula which science cannot explain

Huh, false.:2razz: I think science explains it well. It's stellar matter, and the "hourglass" shape is made by the expnsion of wind within an expanding cloud.

More poetic babbling:

The fact that people, subconsciously say things like "Oh my god"

How the **** does that provide any evidence whatsoever of a "supernatural" god? We also "subconsciously say things like "****", what the ****, and other profanities. It doesn't prove a thing. Try again.:2razz:

Wrong again. The universe has been scientifically proven to have a beginning and therefore does not stretch backwards to infinity.

Prove it.

You just don't get it. You still cannot grasp the concept that God exists OUTSIDE of the physical universe, outside of space and time and therefore is not subject to temporal or physical laws. And like I've said before: the universe does not "exist in nothing." Outside of the physical universe lies the infinite realm of the metaphysical. GOD IS NOT PHYSICAL.

If he's not governed by physical laws, the world would be utter chaotic. Something cannot happen without a law. If I flip a coin, if there were no laws, it would fall on both sides, because of the law of gravity, and the foce that it's thrown, it only falls on 1 side.

 

[The Real McCoy]

It makes little difference what "category" you fit me in.:2razz: The whole thing comes down to the fact that I don't buy into fairy stories. Still, you must provide proof or evidence, hence you're the believer.

It does make a difference because you yourself said God does not exist, thus making you a foolish denier with nothing to back up your claim. I can support evidence for mine, why can't you?

That's wishful thinking being depicted as factual on your part. A "blind percept", since you have no proof.

It isn't wishful thinking, it's history. Noteworthy examples include: North Korea, Cuba, the former Soviet Union and various other Godless communist nations.

Huh, false.:2razz: I think science explains it well. It's stellar matter, and the "hourglass" shape is made by the expnsion of wind within an expanding cloud.

It certainly is stellar matter. Unfortunately, science does not explain it well, I'm very familiar with the discoveries in modern astronomy. The forming of a cloud, eerily and unmistakabley identical in appearance to a human eye, complete with the "glimmer in the pupil" that is the star from which the nebula formed cannot be explained, nor can the fact that the star is well off-center from where it should be to form such a structure. This evidence doesn't come from simply looking at a picture but rather, extensive scientific documentation.

How the **** does that provide any evidence whatsoever of a "supernatural" god? We also "subconsciously say things like "****", what the ****, and other profanities. It doesn't prove a thing. Try again.:2razz:

Unlike calls to God, not everybody curses.

Prove it.

Numerous measurements all coincide and point to the universe originating approximately 14 billion years ago. These include the cosmic microwave radiation background, electromagnetic spectrographic observations of stars, galaxies and quasars and the galactic expansion rate, on both local and grander scales. There has been no substantial evidence to the contrary.

If he's not governed by physical laws, the world would be utter chaotic. Something cannot happen without a law. If I flip a coin, if there were no laws, it would fall on both sides, because of the law of gravity, and the foce that it's thrown, it only falls on 1 side.

:doh You STILL DON'T get it. God CREATED the physical laws that govern our world and universe. He is NOT bound by them. You continue to put him into physical terms. You (or I or anybody for the matter) can't comprehend the nature of the realm God exists in. Most people accept this however you foolishly and stubbornly continue to try to claim that God must follow physical laws such as causality and gravity.


You also failed to acknowledge 2 of my examples: "The beauty, complexity and ordered design of the universe, the earth, and life itself." and "The ability of our minds to logically reason, an impossible product of chaotic randomness." Don't waste your breath though, however you choose to respond will be flawed and I'll continue to point out the fallibility in your reasoning.


I'm done arguing with you. I've wasted too much time and energy (in vain) listening and responding to your circular logic and outright mindless statements. People like you are a very small minority and with good reason.

I do, however, have a rhetorical question for you: It's dangerous for someone to deny God, lest he actually exist but what danger is there in accepting that he does if he in fact does not exist?

 

[SKILMATIC]

I wasn't aware the sun was a theory made up by man. Are you a theory made up by man, SKILMATIC?

How do you know its the sun? How do you really know what it is? Is it from what scientists tell you? How do they really know? How do we really know this universe isnt some parasite on a larger organism? I forget who theorized that. I know its a wierd name though. :lol:

 

[kal-el]

It does make a difference because you yourself said God does not exist, thus making you a foolish denier with nothing to back up your claim. I can support evidence for mine, why can't you?

The only thing I have to back up my claim is common sense and science. The more science progresses, the less space your "immaterial" god occupies.

It isn't wishful thinking, it's history. Noteworthy examples include: North Korea, Cuba, the former Soviet Union and various other Godless communist nations.

Dude, our nation wasn't founded on faith:
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html

So, you can give a few examples.That does not mean because they are "Godless" that they have problems. And the last time I checked, Communist China was in good shape.:lol:

How many nations wage war in the name of some "divine" entity? Your "god" just acts as an amplifying lever for the human desire for revenge. But what the hell does God do? Nada. If he loves us, why favor some and not others and vice-versa? If he is so powerful, why did he need pilots to take out buildings (9/11), and why didn't he save the innocents? Every army in the world went to war claiming "God" is with us. First the Muslims when they colonized Europe, the Christians did during the Crusades, the Inquisition, the wars between India and Pakistan, Cypress, Ireland, Kosovo, and finally Iraq. People are always inflicting harm on one another in the name of some "God."

It certainly is stellar matter. Unfortunately, science does not explain it well, I'm very familiar with the discoveries in modern astronomy. The forming of a cloud, eerily and unmistakabley identical in appearance to a human eye, complete with the "glimmer in the pupil" that is the star from which the nebula formed cannot be explained, nor can the fact that the star is well off-center from where it should be to form such a structure. This evidence doesn't come from simply looking at a picture but rather, extensive scientific documentation.

It seems science dosen't question their explanantions at all. Where do you get off saying science cannot explain it? More Christian, Bible-thumping hearsay. The Hourglass Nebula is a tenous cloudof gas formed by a sun-like star undergoing "death tremours" at the endof its life. The star had difficulty in getting enough fuel to keep up its nuclear furnace,and has now shed off some of its surface material in 2 directions.
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMONLWO4HD_index_O.html
http://hourglass-nebula.iqnaut.net/

It sounds to me that science dosen't have any trouble explaining it at all.:lol:

Unlike calls to God, not everybody curses.

And not everybody "calls to god."

Numerous measurements all coincide and point to the universe originating approximately 14 billion years ago. These include the cosmic microwave radiation background, electromagnetic spectrographic observations of stars, galaxies and quasars and the galactic expansion rate, on both local and grander scales. There has been no substantial evidence to the contrary.

14 Billion years ago? Prove it. The Big Bang theory says the universe is expanding, it might not be infinite, per sae, but it's so damn big beyond our comprehension.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/brunoiuw3.htm
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#RB
http://www.byteland.org/cosmology/infinity.html
http://everythingforever.com/ywexist.htm

You STILL DON'T get it. God CREATED the physical laws that govern our world and universe. He is NOT bound by them. You continue to put him into physical terms. You (or I or anybody for the matter) can't comprehend the nature of the realm God exists in. Most people accept this however you foolishly and stubbornly continue to try to claim that God must follow physical laws such as causality and gravity.

Well he has to be created. Nothing cannot exist from scratch. If it were, it wouldn't exist. Before you throw out these Bible-thumping 1 and 2 liners, provide some evidence.:lol:

You also failed to acknowledge 2 of my examples: "The beauty, complexity and ordered design of the universe, the earth, and life itself." and "The ability of our minds to logically reason, an impossible product of chaotic randomness." Don't waste your breath though, however you choose to respond will be flawed and I'll continue to point out the fallibility in your reasoning.

Ok, but how do thos examples provide any evidence of a god? I think the design of the universe shows excellent proof of the big bang causing an explosion in space. And since our minds can logically reason, that must be a gift from your "supernatural" god,right? Dude, that's just faith,behind perception. You have no evidence whatsoever. You provide what you think is evidence, but,on the contrary, it only proves my point.:lol:

I'm done arguing with you. I've wasted too much time and energy (in vain) listening and responding to your circular logic and outright mindless statements. People like you are a very small minority and with good reason.

Good. I've wasted way too much valuable time in vain trying to get through to you. You put too much stock in a book that was always written by ancient transcribers.

I do, however, have a rhetorical question for you: It's dangerous for someone to deny God, lest he actually exist but what danger is there in accepting that he does if he in fact does not exist?

I think it's dangerous for people to believe in an "almighty" god, well, act on their beliefs anyway. Think of all the damn time you're wasting if it turns out after death there is nothing. You live by all these damn rules and strict guidlines, and spend a good portion of your life attending worship services, worshipping a worthless piece of wood or metal for nothing? Think about all the fun you're giving up?

 

[kal-el]

How do we really know this universe isnt some parasite on a larger organism?

That's interesting you brought that up. I hold the same theory. I think the universe is part of a larger organism, who is part of an even larger one, so on to infinity.

 

[Cloud9]

1. And I'll give my answer again "A God who is simply one of many beings "toying" with us isn't honest"

You either don't understand the question or are purposely avoiding it. I'll attempt to clarify one last time and then I'll drop it altogether.

I didn't say that you would be cognizant that there is an entire race of 4D beings. You'd only know about the one that has presented him/herself to you, and this being has god-like powers from your perspective, but in his realm, his powers are nothing special as any 4D being can do the same.

Since he's not God, he's not bound by concepts of honesty, but is a 4D being that is one billion years more advanced than our puny human evolutionary scale and civilization, how would a believer like yourself be able to distinguish between God and the 4D being or would it simply take a 4D being that's a billion years more advanced than us for you to drop to your knees and pray?

2. The moral code I'm referring to is the one I and (I hopefully assume) you and everyone shares: the ingrained sense that certain things are wrong e.g. lying, stealing, rape, murder, etc.

On the statement of moral code.
1. And from where did this moral code that you reference come?
2. If your reference is God and the Bible, then what say you to the following:

A. If Adam and Eve were the beginning, then wouldn't children that follow be the product of incest? Does that mean God condones incest? Couldn't God in His infinite power have created more people to prevent the case of incest?

B. Do you believe that God condones rape, murder, slavery as stated in the Bible? (You can look most of these entries in Biblegateway.com)

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) (Ironically, 25-50% of priests today are homosexuals http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051112/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) and I thought I was tough on my kids...
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) - talk about a God with an insecurity complex, sounds like more like my ex than God.
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB), (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT), (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT), (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT), (Judges 20:48 NAB),
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Slavery: (No wonder the very religious, slave condoning South likes to go Bible thumping) (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT), (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT), (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT), (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB), (Ephesians 6:5 NLT), (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

C. Do you believe that there should be no public prayer as indicated in the Bible.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV).

Problem with the Bible is all the meaning lost in the numerous translations - Bible history - http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...tory/#timeline

 

[SKILMATIC]

That's interesting you brought that up. I hold the same theory. I think the universe is part of a larger organism, who is part of an even larger one, so on to infinity.

As you said, great minds think alike.

On the other hand, IMO I do think there is a God but I really cant tell you 100% sure that there is. I just have faith to go by. Just like I would have faith that I beleive this world is a parasite on a larger organism.