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Who killed Jesus?

Binyamin said:
Okay! Let's use it! Why did Americans kill Martin Luther King Jr.? Why did Americans slaughter millions of Native Americans including women and children?
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The answer of the "why" question is easy and one God worked through your culture to explain to us all. Because humanity is sinful and in need of redemption. We kill in every human family because of sin. We chose corruption, we got corruption. But God wasn't about to let the creation called, "very good," be ruined. God would redeem. God's redemptive plan came in the person of Jesus, as God promised Abraham, "Your offspring will be a blessing to all the nations of the Earth."

Through Abraham, God's redemptive plan took root in the human condition, the fruition of which is Jesus the Anointed One. The mistake most of Western Christendom's history has made is in blaming the Jewish people for Jesus' death and condemning so many to an horrific holocaust. All of the blame belongs with the entire human family:

Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases;
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the punishment that made us whole,
and by his bruises we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have all turned to our own way,
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By a perversion of justice he was taken away.
Who could have imagined his future?
For he was cut off from the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people.
They made his grave with the wicked
and his tombe with the rich,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him with pain.
When you make his life an offering for sin,h
he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days;
through him the will of the LORD shall prosper.
Out of his anguish he shall see light;
he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge.
The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Now I am sure you would argue this quote from Isaiah is about corporate Judaism or Israel/Judah, and I would affirm that reading while adding the caveat that everything Israel/Judah exemplified in Jewish faith and heritage created an image of the categorical matrix of community that would be able to recognize God's plan. In other words, out of the community, the messiah would come, to bear our sins, our iniquities, our sickness, upon the cross of suffering and shame, take the blame and ridicule upon himself, and through the Jewish witness to what the messiah would be, the rest of the world would have a point of understanding, a point of reference.

This means Isaiah is both about the righteous suffering community and the suffering servant embodied in Christ. The Jewish people are redeemed in being faithful to that covenant, bearing the messiah for the world having created in the priests, lawyers, prophets and wisdom writers a categorical matrix through which other peoples could understand. The Jewish people were elected for a purpose: the redemption and salvation of the world through their child, Jesus, hypostatically in union with the very being of God, truly the Messiah/Christ. In fulfilling that purpose the Jewish people gave humanity the means to understand who and what this messiah is. And in that fidelity to the Abramic covenant, the Jewish people are saved by God as long as they cling to that faithfulness.

And it is in the matrix of categories that the Jewish people gave us through centuries of suffering, pain, persecution, genocide, ethnic cleansing and identity assasination, that the rest of the world is saved, through the person of Jesus the Christ. Their joint message is not far removed from the message of Cain and Abel. Killing and murder are wrong, whatever the context. All that to say the anwser to your question: people kill intra-tribally and extra-tribally because of sin, and it matters because it matters to God, it breaks covenant with God.
 
Binyamin said:
Okay! Let's use it! Why did Americans kill Martin Luther King Jr.? Why did Americans slaughter millions of Native Americans including women and children?
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you still havent answered the question advanced at the beginning of the thread. i do not claim to be a psychologist, so i am not going to try and psychoanalyze the people who are dead now. if i were there i would maybe have a chance of using it. ill put forward this question to the people who afflicted the Jews in modern times. why did Hitler want so badly to kill Jews?
here is a question for the misguided Christians of the real old days, why did the Crusaders invade Israel and kill so many Arabs. here is a little tidbit from Genesis. remember Jacob's brother Esau? the punishment Israel/Jacob recieved for the deception of his brother and father was that Esau's descendants would be a thorn in the side of his own descendants until the end of the earth. it is still being upheld today. the Arabs can be traced all the way back to Esau. so why are the Jews fighting the Arabs??? you can try your best to answer the questions about the past and why people acted the way they did, but you can never find the true answer.
 
Are you talking about Ishmael? I believe the Muslims are his descendants. They feel he was Abraham’s first born and Isaac stole his birth right. They also believe that Israel didn’t follow God while they did, so the birth right reverts back to them.

In all honesty, I’m not sure. It is what I had read.
 
The truth is, Christ laid his life down for all of us. However, on a personal note he wouldn’t have had to if I did not sin. Since I do, it’s my fault. I accept him as my Lord, my Savior…my sins put him on the cross…he died for me, on a personal level…just as he died for many others. As the lambs blood on the Passover saved Israel, Christ’s blood saves those that accept him.

Guess what I’m saying is…let’s pull the plank out of our own eye before we begin our accusations against Israel and the Romans.

On a side note: Many in Israel did accept Christ as the Messiah! They are truly a blessed Nation and as Christians…we are part of that olive tree!
 
dthmstr254 said:
you could track them down to both, technically, their lines crossed several times
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Really, I'd love to read about it. Can you direct me to some books or articles that support this belief? I'd be very interested.
 
Viper said:
Really, I'd love to read about it. Can you direct me to some books or articles that support this belief? I'd be very interested.
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hows about i give you the name of the person to whom i have gained this knowledge. his name is Dr David Kemp. a professor at my school. so if you want to "read" this book, maybe you should come to chattanooga. otherwise you should use your common sense and think about some things. how many ways could you connect the kings/queens of medieaval europe to eachother. wouldnt it make sense that if you could do that with an entire continent, why couldnt you make it happen with just two countries? common sense tells us that they most likely had relationships between themselves, especially since this was a way to make peace treaties more permanent.
 
Chevalier said:
The answer of the "why" question is easy and one God worked through your culture to explain to us all. Because humanity is sinful and in need of redemption. We kill in every human family because of sin. We chose corruption, we got corruption. But God wasn't about to let the creation called, "very good," be ruined. God would redeem. God's redemptive plan came in the person of Jesus, as God promised Abraham, "Your offspring will be a blessing to all the nations of the Earth."
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So Americans killed MLJ and native americans because of sin? Well I guess you could say Jews had Jesus killed for his sins. If Americans can do it for sin, Jews can do it for sin too. End of story.
 
Binyamin said:
So Americans killed MLJ and native americans because of sin? Well I guess you could say Jews had Jesus killed for his sins. If Americans can do it for sin, Jews can do it for sin too. End of story.
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You could say that but you would of course be wrong. You proceed from a false assumption. The assumption that I suggest MLK or Native Americans were killed because they sinned is in error. I am saying we killed them because of our collective sinfulness. Of course, Jesus was without sin, as Isaiah told us the "servant" would be, it follows that Roman's executed him at the behest of a small Jewish faction, on behalf of the whole of humanity because of their collective sinfulness.

This is part of the categorical matrix your culture made available. As Isaiah 53(which I already posted above) demonstated, the suffering servant, Jesus, was the blameless lamb who before the shearers was silent. Jesus was killed for our sins, the one who bore the sins of many. You see, the old categorical matrix that was the Temple system taught us that the messiah would be without blemish, that one would come who was without sin and that humanity would reject and kill him.

It was something Paul understood very well, expressing it in Romans 3:22-31:

But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christa for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; It was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

So you see, the Jewish people did not kill Jesus, the culpability lies with us all and the Romans were the executioners, as rulers of the then "known world." The Jewish people are no more to blame than the rest of humanity. We are sinful creation.
 
dthmstr254 said:
hows about i give you the name of the person to whom i have gained this knowledge. his name is Dr David Kemp. a professor at my school. so if you want to "read" this book, maybe you should come to chattanooga. otherwise you should use your common sense and think about some things. how many ways could you connect the kings/queens of medieaval europe to eachother. wouldnt it make sense that if you could do that with an entire continent, why couldnt you make it happen with just two countries? common sense tells us that they most likely had relationships between themselves, especially since this was a way to make peace treaties more permanent.
Click to expand...

In 2 chronicles 8:17 we see the nation of Edom, the Edomites (Esau’s decedents). In 2 Chronicles 9:14 we see the Arab Kings, or nations. They are two distinct nations.

In Obadiah verse 8, it talks about Edom and Esau being the same and the Lord destroying them. In verse 18, we see the house of Edom’s total destruction.

Oba 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Isaiah prophesied of God’s judgment against Edom about 700 BC, while Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Obadiah all delivered their prophecies of impending doom upon Edom around the year 600 BC. According to the Bible my friend, Esau is no longer.

I do understand what you are saying, but Israel intermingled with other nations as well. They were commanded not to, but they did. Fact is we all come from Adam, we have all intermingled. Yet God draws a distinction between the Nations or descendants. Israel are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Arabs are descendants of Abraham and Ishmael. Edomites are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Esau.
 
Chevalier said:
You could say that but you would of course be wrong. You proceed from a false assumption. The assumption that I suggest MLK or Native Americans were killed because they sinned is in error. I am saying we killed them because of our collective sinfulness. Of course, Jesus was without sin, as Isaiah told us the "servant" would be, it follows that Roman's executed him at the behest of a small Jewish faction, on behalf of the whole of humanity because of their collective sinfulness.

This is part of the categorical matrix your culture made available. As Isaiah 53(which I already posted above) demonstated, the suffering servant, Jesus, was the blameless lamb who before the shearers was silent. Jesus was killed for our sins, the one who bore the sins of many. You see, the old categorical matrix that was the Temple system taught us that the messiah would be without blemish, that one would come who was without sin and that humanity would reject and kill him.

It was something Paul understood very well, expressing it in Romans 3:22-31:

But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christa for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; It was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

So you see, the Jewish people did not kill Jesus, the culpability lies with us all and the Romans were the executioners, as rulers of the then "known world." The Jewish people are no more to blame than the rest of humanity. We are sinful creation.
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Praise the Lord, excellent post brother!
 
Viper said:
In 2 chronicles 8:17 we see the nation of Edom, the Edomites (Esau’s decedents). In 2 Chronicles 9:14 we see the Arab Kings, or nations. They are two distinct nations.

In Obadiah verse 8, it talks about Edom and Esau being the same and the Lord destroying them. In verse 18, we see the house of Edom’s total destruction.

Oba 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Isaiah prophesied of God’s judgment against Edom about 700 BC, while Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Obadiah all delivered their prophecies of impending doom upon Edom around the year 600 BC. According to the Bible my friend, Esau is no longer.

I do understand what you are saying, but Israel intermingled with other nations as well. They were commanded not to, but they did. Fact is we all come from Adam, we have all intermingled. Yet God draws a distinction between the Nations or descendants. Israel are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Arabs are descendants of Abraham and Ishmael. Edomites are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Esau.
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i was talking about bloodlines.
 
The church itself is proof of Jesus the Christ and his existence, my young friend.

At 45 I would not describe myself as "young" and I am certainly not your "friend".
No the church is not evidence of his existence anymore than I am evidence of Adolf Hitler`s existence.

Is your problem with him that he was Semitic and God's Son?

He is no more "God`s son" than my pet Mexican Black Kingsnake!
Certainly being "semitic" does not help. We Teutons have our gods.We require no weakling on a stick to "die for" us.

The "Aryan" nomenclature ruins your credibility but the "Imperium" sobriquette further demonstrates the insecurity you feel, young one.

Touched a raw nerve with my use of the term "Aryan"? Again I am not your "young one".

I suggest you read the early church fathers, Josephus, and the other obvious historical references.

I already have. This is what the academics have to say about your "church fathers"-
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm[/B
]
Begin with them, cast off the Aryan illusion of supremacy if that possesses you and explore the real world through balanced eyes.

It is no illusion that I am an Aryan. You use the term "supremacy", not I.

Jesus existed, saving me and offering the same for you.

Saving you from what exactly? Sin? "Sin is the transgression of the law".[I John 3:5] I am not a jew therefore not subject to your "law" and therefore without "sin">

But you will never know the truth until you cast off the illusion of aryan importance.

It is not an "illusion" but a fact of history and nature.


As an aryan, I welcome the diversity of creation. My sisters and brothers are from all tribes, tongues, religions and cultures because the truth is aryan supremacy is a lie cooked up by scared people bent on attaining power through the transmission of fear. Such people can hardly be an Imperium. Aryan culture came after African and Semitic cultures, we are a third generation culture, there is nothing primary about us.


"African culture"? You jest surely? What culture?:lol:

Let go the will-to-power my young friend, accept the will-to-relationship embodied in Christ that draws near in the Holy Spirit. Only then will the fear and hurt end.[/QUOTE]

Again I am neither "young" nor your "friend". I have no idea why you crave my friendship so!
I require no relationship with your weakling on a stick. My god is Wotan and I hail his name with the Aryan salute.
 
The aryans, my race, are so culturally inferior we need a savior to redeem our corrupt and evil, doomed race.

I need no "saviour" to "redeem" me,least of all a weakling on a stick.
You have the temerity to term Aryan civilisation "culturally inferior".You clearly know nothing of the great achievements from the European Bronze and Stone Ages,the glory of ancient Hellas,Rome,Nordic civilisation,the Aryan megaliths that are scattered throughout Europe that rival the pyramids in their construction.

We plundered the greatness of the African, the Native American, the Asian.

What "African greatness"? History has no such recollection of any such "greatness".

We had to learn from all of them because our Mein Kamph was proof of our weaknesses and fears, Nietzsche wrote undeniable proof that our intellect is not much above a spiders, and yet you accept the dogmatic inculcating inferiority of lesser creativity and thought. There has not been

The word that you are struggling to spell correctly is "Kampf",meaning struggle,fight.

We came from Africa, we emerged from the plains of Africa, an afterthought of God's divine creativity and Dante's Divine Comedy should have been written about how the fear filled doctrine/religion of aryan superiority came into being.

Maybe you did but don`t attempt to speak for others. My ancestors are European.They did not emerge from any camel dung heap.
Your self loathing and distaste for Aryan man and culture shines through your posts and is good enough reason for us to reject your jewish gospel:we don`t want to become like you,loathing the accomplishments of our own race.

You and I are children of Lucy, not so distant a relative as you want us to be, as your mythology informs you. End the intellectually stunted drive to segregation, sell the hood and cowl, learn to walk like everyone else, get the nose out of the clouds and embrace your African origins my friend for that is who you and I and every single person on this planet are at our core.[/QUOTE]

You sell your monkish "hood" and don`t preach to others.
Your origins may be African but mine most certainly are not.
In fact the way in which you appear to embrace evolutionary theory albeit indirectly in your posts would betray a dichotomy between that and your xtian beliefs.Must be quite a struggle for you?
 
Binyamin said:
There is enough evidence that a man named Yoshua existed. The question is whether he is the Son of G-d.
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There are also a lot of Mexicans called Jesus but again that proves nothing!
 
Viper said:
The truth is, Christ laid his life down for all of us. However, on a personal note he wouldn’t have had to if I did not sin. Since I do, it’s my fault. I accept him as my Lord, my Savior…my sins put him on the cross…he died for me, on a personal level…just as he died for many others. As the lambs blood on the Passover saved Israel, Christ’s blood saves those that accept him.

Guess what I’m saying is…let’s pull the plank out of our own eye before we begin our accusations against Israel and the Romans.

On a side note: Many in Israel did accept Christ as the Messiah! They are truly a blessed Nation and as Christians…we are part of that olive tree!
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LoL! I can hear those tambourines a-shakin`.:lol:
 
Aryan Imperium said:
You should read this before you comment further-

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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maybe we should change the name of the link to www.lies.com.
when was the last time you read a normal history book? you know, one that is objective. read chapter 11 of Traditions and Encounters and it will tell of its evidence. your site never cited any source for its dogmatic talk. i did. i am only in college, but the people who wrote this book are professors that are well known. their history book is reliable enough to have made it into several colleges, including TTU, UT, UTC, UF, CCC, FSU, and BJU. your people who wrote that website have mastered the art of ignorance to a "T". Jesus DID exist, He WAS executed, now move on to reality.
 
Odin was an impotent, blind, greedy daddy, willing to kill his own offspring because couldn't escape covetting a ring. What a waste of a god. Norse mythology is a laughable bunch of stories about capricious god-lings so selfish they ignorantly unleashed Ragnarock. I feel sorry for you my friend, chosing an impotent god whose wife Freya, led him around by the...well this is a family channel. Thor had a big...hammer (yet another Aryan legend in his own mind) and Baldar struggled with gender identity issues. Tyr was such an obtuse nob, Loki the jokester tricked him into losing a hand to Fenrae the wolf. The Norse mythology is dead my friend, remembered in ale-halls (that's taverns, pubs and keggers my young, naive friend) by Aryans who follow their fake deities in a few ways: self-absorption, racism, impotence, and all around insignificance. Yes the Norse god-lings are a comic memory whose only good contribution to our Aryan culture was to fade into oblivion after leaving the inspiration for the Nieblungenlieb ring cycle, in turn dying in the story and ridding us of their foolishness. In that cycle though a Christian came along and wove a story, a trilogy, that made huge bucks as a movie.

You ignore the real God for fear your racism will be condemned and it is justly so. As an Aryan, your ancestors crawled up out of the mud in the Nile flood-plain, Africans who carried humanity to every corner of the world. Lucy, the great Australopithicus afarensis "primogenotor," was your great-grandmother.
It happened this way because God willed it, with a word. Odin, the impotent, couldn't create, though we know why the non-existing one had a foul temper. Yes, yes, my young, naive friend, you do need the God so strong as to throw even death aside, that being of course Jesus Christ. Embrace him my young friend, it's the only to overcome your hyper-inflated sense of inferiority. Come visit me in church tomorrow, you obviously need to know who a real God is.
 
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Jesus probably never even existed. He's probably as mythical as Robin Hood.
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Good to see you have a sense of humor TU. Since by experience, I know Jesus existed, I will let you decide for yourself when you do.
 
then why does he appear in history textbooks in secular colleges and portrayed as a true story (minus the miracles)?
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So what? My textbook in Western Civilizations is a history text, and it mentions Ahuramazda, a god. Do you think he's real too, simply because the book mentions he existed, according to the Persians? No. You wouldn't. That must obviously mean he exists according to your logic, since he was in the book and the Persians believed it was true.

Jebus is in history books because, made up or not, he's an important literary figure, much like Robin Hood and King Arthur.

There is very little evidence for the exitence of Jesus, except for Christians writing down saying he existed. Big woop. SO chritians are telling you that their 'savior' exited. Of course they are going to say that; what else would they say? He's fake, but sign up as a Christian anyway?

There was also one jew who wrote about jebus, and people pretended it was during the time of Jebus, when in reality, it was most likely forged and added considerably later.


Good to see you have a sense of humor TU. Since by experience, I know Jesus existed, I will let you decide for yourself when you do.
Chevalier is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote
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Really, that's fantasitic. I can play the personal experiences game too. Let's try it! I have personal experience that jimmy-crack-corn exists. I will let you decide for yourself when you meet him.
 
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
So what? My textbook in Western Civilizations is a history text, and it mentions Ahuramazda, a god. Do you think he's real too, simply because the book mentions he existed, according to the Persians? No. You wouldn't. That must obviously mean he exists according to your logic, since he was in the book and the Persians believed it was true.

Jebus is in history books because, made up or not, he's an important literary figure, much like Robin Hood and King Arthur.

There is very little evidence for the exitence of Jesus, except for Christians writing down saying he existed. Big woop. SO chritians are telling you that their 'savior' exited. Of course they are going to say that; what else would they say? He's fake, but sign up as a Christian anyway?

There was also one jew who wrote about jebus, and people pretended it was during the time of Jebus, when in reality, it was most likely forged and added considerably later.




Really, that's fantasitic. I can play the personal experiences game too. Let's try it! I have personal experience that jimmy-crack-corn exists. I will let you decide for yourself when you meet him.
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Must have struck a raw nerve there huh TU. You don't do the facetious cynic very well. Your cognitive dissonance must really hurt. I understand you are trying so desparately to deny what your heart, mind, body and soul tell you exists. I mean be honest, Jesus existed, you long for intimacy, but your cog-in-a-wheel mentality won't let that be. Oh the bleak non-reality that is utilitarian epistemology. Oh how sad science is based in intuition thus technology is based on intuitive premises.

But let's be brutally honest, we know Jesus existed and you are afraid that if you accept his existence that it lays a claim on your life. What is it you are afraid you will have to give up? That's what it is really all about isn't it my young friend? You have a lifestyle you are afraid might be inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. Join the club, we all have that reality facing us; so embrace spiritual reality my friend. Embrace truth and reality my friend, turn from the bleak, mid-winter of your unfulfilled, syndicated life-style and be converted.
 
Originally posted by Chevalier
You have a lifestyle you are afraid might be inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. Join the club, we all have that reality facing us; so embrace spiritual
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Yep all of us...especially the man who falsely claims to be Christian, who claims to read from the Bible every morning, who claims Jesus is his favorite speaker, yep he follows Jesus alright. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "Turn the other cheek" "Love your enemies"
 
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