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Who killed Jesus?

HU-210

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Ah, but now you speak of two absolutes, while the properties of truth, tertium datur, may be a multitude. No black and white, but shades of grey. I am not proposing that I know the answer. In fact, I mean not to. I claim to be too humble a being to use logic on something as essential as truth/false, because I believe such elementary properties supercede our mental capabilities.

Most certainly we may pass some degree of judgement on the veracity of facts in the material world, and we can say that some things are likely than others, but as long as (and this in my view will never happen) we are not certain of our environment, we can not pass judgement in it and assume it is a representation of the world.

Can you distinguish between a movie made of a tree, with birds and leaves, and the real thing? The movie is your account of it, while the real thing is the truth. Now, I'm not too sure whether the real truth exists, because there is no way I can be certain of it. Regarding my own thought, no I can not be certain of it.

Descartes said "cogito ergo sum", "I think thus I am" supposing he could simply state 'am', and get away with it. We have no idea what it means to exist. More amusing, we can't imagine what it means to not exist.

However, this all is a repition of what has been said before. Prove that P is either true, or not true.

Mr U
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
Ah, but now you speak of two absolutes, while the properties of truth, tertium datur, may be a multitude. No black and white, but shades of grey. I am not proposing that I know the answer. In fact, I mean not to. I claim to be too humble a being to use logic on something as essential as truth/false, because I believe such elementary properties supercede our mental capabilities.

Most certainly we may pass some degree of judgement on the veracity of facts in the material world, and we can say that some things are likely than others, but as long as (and this in my view will never happen) we are not certain of our environment, we can not pass judgement in it and assume it is a representation of the world.

Can you distinguish between a movie made of a tree, with birds and leaves, and the real thing? The movie is your account of it, while the real thing is the truth. Now, I'm not too sure whether the real truth exists, because there is no way I can be certain of it. Regarding my own thought, no I can not be certain of it.

Descartes said "cogito ergo sum", "I think thus I am" supposing he could simply state 'am', and get away with it. We have no idea what it means to exist. More amusing, we can't imagine what it means to not exist.

However, this all is a repition of what has been said before. Prove that P is either true, or not true.

Mr U

I cannot distinguish a movie...but...we are discussing reality. The proper question would be, can I distinguish a tree in front of me that I can walk up and touch. The fact that you used a Movie in your analogy shows that you already know the answer.

I do agree that that Man, in and of himself, cannot discern the MEANING of existence. Man, starting from man and nature alone, cannot answer this question of meaning or purpose. But, I am not stating in this discourse that I know the meaning of why I exist. I am stating that I know I exist.

If I see a ball rolling down the street, and I walk up to it and stop it and pick it up.....then I know that the ball was in motion. I know that the ball was in my hand. And I know that there was a force that set the ball in motion. If your definition of this claim is arrogance....then so be it

What I don't know is: (1) what set the ball in motion and (2) why the ball was set in motion.

It would be possible for me not to know that I was in a street and that I had a ball in my hand. Some call the condition insanity.
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
Ah, but now you speak of two absolutes,

How do you know this ? On what basis do you make this claim ?



HU-210 said:
while the properties of truth, tertium datur, may be a multitude. No black and white, but shades of grey. I am not proposing that I know the answer. In fact, I mean not to. I claim to be too humble a being to use logic on something as essential as truth/false, because I believe such elementary properties supercede our mental capabilities.

How do you know you are humble ?
How do you know you are a being ?
What is logic ?
How do you know we have mental capabilities ?



HU-210 said:
Most certainly we may pass some degree of judgement on the veracity of facts in the material world,

How can you be most certain about anything ?
How do you know there is anything ?

HU-210 said:
and we can say that some things are likely than others, but as long as (and this in my view will never happen) we are not certain of our environment, we can not pass judgement in it and assume it is a representation of the world.,

How do you know there is a "we" ?
How do you know there is an environment ?
How do you know anyone is passing judgement ?
What is judgement ?

HU-210 said:
Can you distinguish between a movie made of a tree, with birds and leaves, and the real thing? .,

What is a movie ?
What is a tree ? bird ? leaves ? thing....?

HU-210 said:
The movie is your account of it, while the real thing is the truth. Now, I'm not too sure whether the real truth exists, because there is no way I can be certain of it. Regarding my own thought, no I can not be certain of it. .,

How do you know it is my account ?
How do you know you are not sure ?


HU-210 said:
Descartes said "cogito ergo sum", "I think thus I am" supposing he could simply state 'am', and get away with it. We have no idea what it means to exist. More amusing, we can't imagine what it means to not exist. .,

How do you know Descartes said this ?


HU-210 said:
However, this all is a repition of what has been said before. Prove that P is either true, or not true.

Mr U

How do you know you said this before ?
 

HU-210

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Hmm.. Your intent is noble, but failing. I am not proposing full doubt, I am saying that full certainty is arrogant. I am saying that it is healthy to find something likely, but not to be certain of something.

Thus, your attempt to reduce it to absurd heights (or lows) has failed, in my opinion.

Mr U
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
Hmm.. Your intent is noble, but failing. I am not proposing full doubt, I am saying that full certainty is arrogant. I am saying that it is healthy to find something likely, but not to be certain of something.

Thus, your attempt to reduce it to absurd heights (or lows) has failed, in my opinion.

Mr U

That's ok...because you are to humble to be certain that your opinion is correct...or that you even have an opinion to begin with.
 

HU-210

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That's ok...because you are to humble to be certain that your opinion is correct...or that you even have an opinion to begin with.

Nietzsche tells us that an increase of wisdom corresponds with a decrease of bitterness. I'm as sweet as sugar. How about you?

Mr U
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
Nietzsche tells us that an increase of wisdom corresponds with a decrease of bitterness. I'm as sweet as sugar. How about you?

Mr U

I love you.

You are a very intelligent and skilled debator. I may not agree with your worldview, but, I respect you.

I have to read some of this Nietzche. What can you tell me about him/her ?

Also, how is the weather in the Netherlands this time of year ?
 

HU-210

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What can you tell me about him/her?

I'm a judo-fan, and once I was having a ground-fight with someone, and he put me in a stranglehold. However, he did not stop my air, but rather the supply of blood to my brain. Now, I heard, or I thought, I'm not sure it was very odd, when everything slowly went black "This isn't right" (well, in dutch actually). Than I quickly slapped the mat, and he let go.

Now, that "This isn't right" feeling is what I get when I read his criticisms about christianity, philosophers, or contempory thought. I don't read his words, but I read it, and I'm so obsessed with what he is saying that, I don't know, it's amazing. To be able to experience such beauty when reading a book, just characters after characters, just words after words is, beautiful.

His book also sprach zarathustra is a book written like a bible, like how you would expect a holy work to be written, but rather it he teaches you his beliefs, through the words of what seem to be religious parables.

But he also has aphorisms, in which he just puts these sentences, which are so.. well, at risk of sounding incredible (uhm, literal, I mean), true..

We should not let ourselves be burned for our opinions. Of them, we are not so certain. But perhaps for this: That we may have, and change our opinions.

You know, it's not dying for some view, but for being able to HAVE that view that is worth it.

Or, he puts a sentence somewhere in his book "there was but one christian, and he died on the cross." and you think, hey, this makes little sense, but why than, would Nietzsche put something like this in a book without a good reason. You forget it for a while, but than, one day you see the etymology of the word Christian, and you laugh :p.

His words are lightning in a dark sky, and although they do not provide light all the time, they are the only light I can trust and find comfort in. In those nights where others seek God, I seek other beauty. Perhaps that is why I can not bring myself to hate Christians anymore, because we are so very much alike.

I'm out of here, I'm sounding too Utopian :p

Oh, the weather? Hehe. Well, it's cold and we have had snow already, about two weeks ago, I think. Was kinda odd, because we are not used to having that early. Was enough reasons for environmentalists to declare the end of the world, or whatever they are proposing these days.

Oh, and I thank you for the respect. Know that it is returned :)

Mr U
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
I'm a judo-fan, and once I was having a ground-fight with someone, and he put me in a stranglehold. However, he did not stop my air, but rather the supply of blood to my brain. Now, I heard, or I thought, I'm not sure it was very odd, when everything slowly went black "This isn't right" (well, in dutch actually). Than I quickly slapped the mat, and he let go.

Now, that "This isn't right" feeling is what I get when I read his criticisms about christianity, philosophers, or contempory thought. I don't read his words, but I read it, and I'm so obsessed with what he is saying that, I don't know, it's amazing. To be able to experience such beauty when reading a book, just characters after characters, just words after words is, beautiful.

His book also sprach zarathustra is a book written like a bible, like how you would expect a holy work to be written, but rather it he teaches you his beliefs, through the words of what seem to be religious parables.

But he also has aphorisms, in which he just puts these sentences, which are so.. well, at risk of sounding incredible (uhm, literal, I mean), true..

We should not let ourselves be burned for our opinions. Of them, we are not so certain. But perhaps for this: That we may have, and change our opinions.

You know, it's not dying for some view, but for being able to HAVE that view that is worth it.

Or, he puts a sentence somewhere in his book "there was but one christian, and he died on the cross." and you think, hey, this makes little sense, but why than, would Nietzsche put something like this in a book without a good reason. You forget it for a while, but than, one day you see the etymology of the word Christian, and you laugh :p.

His words are lightning in a dark sky, and although they do not provide light all the time, they are the only light I can trust and find comfort in. In those nights where others seek God, I seek other beauty. Perhaps that is why I can not bring myself to hate Christians anymore, because we are so very much alike.

I'm out of here, I'm sounding too Utopian :p

Oh, the weather? Hehe. Well, it's cold and we have had snow already, about two weeks ago, I think. Was kinda odd, because we are not used to having that early. Was enough reasons for environmentalists to declare the end of the world, or whatever they are proposing these days.

Oh, and I thank you for the respect. Know that it is returned :)

Mr U

Beauty is a wonderful thing.

I see beauty as evidence, and hope, for true meaning.
 

HU-210

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Ah, but than, how would that differ from any other day?

Although I know seeking for reason behind something need not lower the pleasure one experiences with/from it, like per example love, but beauty is too expensive a vase for me to grab and look into.

Mr U
 

Mike 1967

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HU-210 said:
Ah, but than, how would that differ from any other day?

Although I know seeking for reason behind something need not lower the pleasure one experiences with/from it, like per example love, but beauty is too expensive a vase for me to grab and look into.

Mr U

I think you might find some lightning flashes in the Book of Ecclesiastes. If you have not read it, I would recommend it to you.

Concerning Beauty....

"for any sort of aesthetic perception to exist, intoxication is indispensible. In this condition one enriches everything out of ones own abundance: what one see's, what one desires, one see's swollen, pressing, strong, overladen with energy. The man in this condition transforms things until they mirror his power-until they are reflections of this perfection. The compulsion to transform into the perfect is - art. "
 
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