Who killed Jesus?

[kal-el]

Is killing wrong?

Do you really have to ask that?

 

[Binyamin]

Do you really have to ask that?

Yes, also use scripture to support your theory.

 

[kal-el]

Yes, also use scripture to support your theory.

Well I've already dug up multiple examples of the Bible's discrepencies, on multiple threads. I don't have the time right now to re-dig them up, or look in my old posts, ok.:2razz:

I'll tell you what though. I don't know how Bible-thumpers can cling to the obtuse notion that he's merciful and kind when (in scripture) he has killed 10s of thousands of people, destroyed the earth with the flood, and put sin into the earth.

 

[Binyamin]

Well I've already dug up multiple examples of the Bible's discrepencies, on multiple threads. I don't have the time right now to re-dig them up, or look in my old posts, ok.:2razz:

I'll tell you what though. I don't know how Bible-thumpers can cling to the obtuse notion that he's merciful and kind when (in scripture) he has killed 10s of thousands of people, destroyed the earth with the flood, and put sin into the earth.

You're missing my point. Where does it say killing is wrong?

 

[sissy-boy]

You're missing my point. Where does it say killing is wrong?

The Holy Babble flip flops on the issue of murder and killing. It advocates war and the burning of children or the stoning to death of your children if they curse at you. Like the Koran it tells men who pillage a city of their enemies to go door to door to find if a woman has been a virgin and to rape them. It says a lot of pretty bad stuff but I don't think that they actually use the word 'killing'. They use a more glorified way of saying it, like 'take their virginity and their lives'. You know, to make it sound 'fun'.

What was your point??

 

[Binyamin]

The Holy Babble flip flops on the issue of murder and killing. It advocates war and the burning of children or the stoning to death of your children if they curse at you. Like the Koran it tells men who pillage a city of their enemies to go door to door to find if a woman has been a virgin and to rape them. It says a lot of pretty bad stuff but I don't think that they actually use the word 'killing'. They use a more glorified way of saying it, like 'take their virginity and their lives'. You know, to make it sound 'fun'.

What was your point??

oh my gosh... You still haven't got my point. You keep saying the bible says killing is wrong, I'm simply asking you where it says that. I agree 100% that murder is wrong. I'm just asking where you think it says not to kill.

 

[sissy-boy]

oh my gosh... You still haven't got my point. You keep saying the bible says killing is wrong, I'm simply asking you where it says that. I agree 100% that murder is wrong. I'm just asking where you think it says not to kill.

Probably in several places. I know of one place. My point is that it contradicts itself.

 

[kal-el]

You're missing my point. Where does it say killing is wrong?

I don't know if it mentions killing exactly, although I found a few verses:

Ecclesiastes 3: 1-3
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,

I don't think it specifically states that killing is wrong, but the word murder is in it in many places.

 

[sissy-boy]

I don't know if it mentions killing exactly, although I found a few verses:



I don't think it specifically states that killing is wrong, but the word murder is in it in many places.

It is so rich in torturous imagery that it uses a variety of ways to describe murder or killing. And it does say 'kill' -- as in my first example. But it also says 'stone to death'. 'as burnt offering', you'll find it goes beyond merely killing and gets more specific as to HOW they should be murdered.

Maybe these quotes will refresh everyone's memory:

God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he [Moses] asked them.... "Now ... kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
-- Numbers 31:1-18 (NIV)
Deuteronomy 22:20-1
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2
When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations ... then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. ... This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Peter 2:18
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV)

 

[kal-el]

It is so rich in torturous imagery that it uses a variety of ways to describe murder or killing. And it does say 'kill' -- as in my first example. But it also says 'stone to death'. 'as burnt offering', you'll find it goes beyond merely killing and gets more specific as to HOW they should be murdered.

Maybe these quotes will refresh everyone's memory:

God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he [Moses] asked them.... "Now ... kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
-- Numbers 31:1-18 (NIV)
Deuteronomy 22:20-1
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2
When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations ... then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. ... This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Peter 2:18
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV)

Yes, I can't believe I overlooked some of them. Good job sissy-boy.:2razz:

 

[Binyamin]

I don't know if it mentions killing exactly, although I found a few verses:

I don't think it specifically states that killing is wrong, but the word murder is in it in many places.

I agree, it doesn't say killing is wrong. no where in the Torah does it say thou shall not kill. In fact, my point stands, in some cases you're obligated to kill.

 

[Binyamin]

It is so rich in torturous imagery that it uses a variety of ways to describe murder or killing. And it does say 'kill' -- as in my first example. But it also says 'stone to death'. 'as burnt offering', you'll find it goes beyond merely killing and gets more specific as to HOW they should be murdered.

Maybe these quotes will refresh everyone's memory:

AGAIN: WHERE DOES IT SAY KILLING IS WRONG????

All those quotes prove my point, killing is NOT wrong. Murder, is.

No where in the TNK does it say, "thou shall not kill".

In fact, G-d says the opposite. You shall kill people for this and that... ect... if they commit this crime, you shall kill them.

So again, you keep assuming the bible says killing is wrong, no where in the TNK does it clearly say you shall not kill.

 

[sissy-boy]

I agree, it doesn't say killing is wrong. no where in the Torah does it say thou shall not kill. In fact, my point stands, in some cases you're obligated to kill.

Or murder.

 

[sissy-boy]

AGAIN: WHERE DOES IT SAY KILLING IS WRONG????

All those quotes prove my point, killing is NOT wrong. Murder, is.

No where in the TNK does it say, "thou shall not kill".

In fact, G-d says the opposite. You shall kill people for this and that... ect... if they commit this crime, you shall kill them.

So again, you keep assuming the bible says killing is wrong, no where in the TNK does it clearly say you shall not kill.

By the same token then, and by using YOUR example of killing vs. murder, abortion would be then considered 'killing' since it is a form of euthanasia. I'm glad that you are pro-abortion.

By the way, JUST because it says it's ok in the Bible does NOT make something more 'moral'. If you were paying attention, you'd have read the quotes from the bible in which God asks Moses to burn his own son to death. Sadly, some Christians DO listen to this rubbish and do things like beat their kids to death for cursing at them. Then they act surprised when they're put in prison for it. You admit yourself that the reason you endorse killing another human is because the Bible says that it is not wrong.

Such is the insane state of affairs and human tragedy in places where religious superstition is so widely distributed and accepted.

 

[Binyamin]

Or murder.

Where? I keep seeing you say it without scripture to back you up.

 

[Binyamin]

By the same token then, and by using YOUR example of killing vs. murder, abortion would be then considered 'killing' since it is a form of euthanasia. I'm glad that you are pro-abortion.

And what crime has the fetus done? Been created?

By the way, JUST because it says it's ok in the Bible does NOT make something more 'moral'. If you were paying attention, you'd have read the quotes from the bible in which God asks Moses to burn his own son to death.

Where do you see it saying Moses is to burn his son???

Sadly, some Christians DO listen to this rubbish and do things like beat their kids to death for cursing at them. Then they act surprised when they're put in prison for it. You admit yourself that the reason you endorse killing another human is because the Bible says that it is not wrong.

I don't think I quite said that, it says you can't murder, no where it says you're forbidden to kill. It doesn't mean you can take killing someone into your own hands, it's a decision that consulting a rabbi would be necessary for. But yes, some times, including abortion, you're obligated to kill the person/fetus.

Such is the insane state of affairs and human tragedy in places where religious superstition is so widely distributed and accepted.

Okay.

How about we go back to the point. You asserted the bible said killing is wrong, show me where it says that I can't kill. Don't turn this into abortion, ect... stay on topic.

 

[kal-el]

AGAIN: WHERE DOES IT SAY KILLING IS WRONG????

It dosen't.

All those quotes prove my point, killing is NOT wrong. Murder, is.

Sure it is, they are one and the same thing, except killing is without malice.

No where in the TNK does it say, "thou shall not kill".

Correct.

In fact, G-d says the opposite. You shall kill people for this and that... ect... if they commit this crime, you shall kill them.

Yes, he seems to be bloodthirsty. He makes Attila the Hun seem like Mr. Rodgers.:lol: He even killed once for someone making fun of his prophet's baldness.

So again, you keep assuming the bible says killing is wrong, no where in the TNK does it clearly say you shall not kill.

correct.

 

[kal-el]

And what crime has the fetus done? Been created?

None. A fetus cannot be held liable for crimes it's incapable of perpetrating.

Where do you see it saying Moses is to burn his son???

Well, from the earliest of historical records, the concept of an innocent blood shed is part of history. I don't recall Moses burning his son, but he does instruct his brother, Aaron, to offer burnt offerings.

I don't think I quite said that, it says you can't murder, no where it says you're forbidden to kill. It doesn't mean you can take killing someone into your own hands, it's a decision that consulting a rabbi would be necessary for. But yes, some times, including abortion, you're obligated to kill the person/fetus.

What? You must consult a rabbi before committing an illegal act? I don't quite understand what you're saying here. please clarify.

How about we go back to the point. You asserted the bible said killing is wrong, show me where it says that I can't kill. Don't turn this into abortion, ect... stay on topic.

Killing and murder are a one-sided coin. They're one in the same.

 

[Binyamin]

What? You must consult a rabbi before committing an illegal act? I don't quite understand what you're saying here. please clarify.

There are certain instances where it is required you commit an illegal act. For example, in the case of an abortion, if the mothers health is in danger, either physically or mentally, she would be required to have an abortion. Although the woman isn't capable of making this decision, she would need to consult someone who is an expert on the law, aka, her rabbi.

Killing and murder are a one-sided coin. They're one in the same.

Are manslaughter and murder the same?

 

[kal-el]

There are certain instances where it is required you commit an illegal act. For example, in the case of an abortion, if the mothers health is in danger, either physically or mentally, she would be required to have an abortion. Although the woman isn't capable of making this decision, she would need to consult someone who is an expert on the law, aka, her rabbi.

I don't understand why she would have to consult a rabbi in order to get a late-term abortion, especially if she isn't religious.

Are manslaughter and murder the same?

The only difference is malice, as I said previously.

 

[Binyamin]

I don't understand why she would have to consult a rabbi in order to get a late-term abortion, especially if she isn't religious.

Well, I kind of figured you wouldn't. I'm giving you a answer from a taditional Jewish POV.

The only difference is malice, as I said previously.

So the punishment is the same?

 

[kal-el]

Well, I kind of figured you wouldn't. I'm giving you a answer from a taditional Jewish POV.

O, I see. Hows about giving me an answer from a logical POV?

So the punishment is the same?

What do you exactly mean by punishment? The end result is the same.

 

[Binyamin]

O, I see. Hows about giving me an answer from a logical POV?

It is perfectly logical, the woman having an abortion has to much personal interest, think of it like the judge being your brother. It has too much bias so you consult someone who knows the law and can give you a judgement on it.

Judaism and Christianity have compeltely different opinions on abortion, from my understanding.

What do you exactly mean by punishment? The end result is the same.

I don't know how to make this more obvious. If I am in a U.S. court trial will the punishemnt be the same for manslaughter and murder? If no, then why do you ignore the distinction in the bible?

 

[kal-el]

It is perfectly logical, the woman having an abortion has to much personal interest, think of it like the judge being your brother. It has too much bias so you consult someone who knows the law and can give you a judgement on it.

Yes, a biased judgement. Last time I checked, most women do not consult priests before they get an abortion.

Judaism and Christianity have compeltely different opinions on abortion, from my understanding.

I think so, I'm not to sure on it.

I don't know how to make this more obvious. If I am in a U.S. court trial will the punishemnt be the same for manslaughter and murder? If no, then why do you ignore the distinction in the bible?

Uhh, who said I ignore any distinctions in the Bible?

 

[Binyamin]

Yes, a biased judgement. Last time I checked, most women do not consult priests before they get an abortion.

Okay, and....? I already said Christianity and Judaism have completely different views on abortion... Let's just leave it at that.

Uhh, who said I ignore any distinctions in the Bible?

You did.

Killing and murder are a one-sided coin. They're one in the same.

If they're the same, then it must follow they can be used interexchangably.

Killing and Murdering are completely different, completely different crimes, completely different motives, completely different punishments, in the bible and in the U.S.