Who is responsible for Third World poverty?

[Aryan Imperium]

I tack the blame on slavery, imperialism, and colonialism. All 3 have happened under capitalism.

Indeed and we all know what desert tribe was responsible for the introduction of capitalism don`t we?

 

[Comrade Brian]

I believe capitalism started in Europe.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

I believe capitalism started in Europe.

According to the jews it started in Egypt by the patriarch Joseph.
Are they lying?

 

[Comrade Brian]

Now you believe the Jews?!

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Now you believe the Jews?!

http://christiananswers.net/bible/gen47.html

23 Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land.

24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

25 And they said, Thou hast saved our lives: let us find grace in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh's servants.

26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh should have the fifth part, except the land of the priests only, which became not Pharaoh's.

27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.

28 And Jacob lived in the land of Egypt seventeen years: so the whole age of Jacob was an hundred forty and seven years.

29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:

30 But I will lie with my fathers, and thou shalt carry me out of Egypt, and bury me in their buryingplace. And he said, I will do as thou hast said.

31 And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed's head.

 

[128shot]

sure blame everything on an economic system...

when only governments make it possible! Boy, isn't that the shocker!


Capitalism would be a hell of alot better if there wasn't protectionists in the state that allow bad apple companies to do these things.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Bad Apple companies? Most big businesses ARE bad Apples.

 

[128shot]

I guess my local businesses decided to enslave everyone :roll:

 

[Comrade Brian]

I have little problems with local ones, just big ones. The local ones tend to turn into big ones, if they survive that far.

 

[128shot]

I think you misunderstand this.


Many corporations have legit manufactures, or, many legit sources of supplys.


Except Wal-mart, and a few others. I have yet to hear bad news on others.

 

[Comrade Brian]

You should also remember that in capitalism, businesses have one thing in mind: profits. If they think breaking a law is worth the risk to make enormous profits. As businesses get bigger, they'll be more powerful and it is easier to persuade governments.

The third world to them is nothing but cheap labor and unused resources.

 

[AlbqOwl]

You should also remember that in capitalism, businesses have one thing in mind: profits. If they think breaking a law is worth the risk to make enormous profits. As businesses get bigger, they'll be more powerful and it is easier to persuade governments.

The third world to them is nothing but cheap labor and unused resources.

You aren't a capitalist then Brian? Everything you get is by government decision whether or not you earned it? I had no idea that my small business was so oppressive or that I was breaking all those laws. I should turn myself into the authorities immediately I guess.

Note to the humor impaired: the above paragraph was not intended to be taken seriously.

There is nothing wrong with profits because without them no business would be able to grow and hire more people and buy more components and use more services all of which create jobs for even more people. Are there people who use others with no consideration for the welfare or well being of those they use? Absolutely. But that isn't limited to capitalists. I feel that way when I pay my tax bill every year too.

The title of this thread, however, is who is responsible for Third World poverty? It isn't American capitalists who pay ridiculously low wages to people in the Third World. Without those ridiculously low wages, those same people would have no wages. But even with ridiculously low wages, they have a chance to learn, plan, maneuver, and grow themselves out of poverty.

It isn't the people themselves when the people believe they are genuinely powerless.

So the answer has to lie with those who disallow people from having power. As the government takes more and more power and leaves less and less power in the hands of the people, the result is steadily lowered GNP, less productivity, and less prosperity for the people. Once all the power is in the hands of an opportunistic dictator, abject poverty is all too often the result.

The question for us is, what is our moral responsibility to those people in the hands of a ruthless dictator?

 

[128shot]

coming from a family that dabbles in business...

I can assure you most businesses don't screw their workers.


As I said before, only governments can screw a population, because they're the only ones with that sole power. Whats sad is businesses will taken advantage of this sometimes, and this is what you are arguing, is that its immoral...

but your method to fix the problem doesn't make sense, since the source is the government and not the coporations.

 

[nkgupta80]

It isn't American capitalists who pay ridiculously low wages to people in the Third World. Without those ridiculously low wages, those same people would have no wages. But even with ridiculously low wages, they have a chance to learn, plan, maneuver, and grow themselves out of poverty.

thats the problem, its not like that. people don't have the chance to bring themselves out of poverty because corporations make sure that all other competition is eliminated. Thus with no competition, they can pay as little as they want. They influence oppressive and corrupt governments to smother free-market in these countries. Governments grow rich, corporations grow rich, people are screwed. This is the reason why its so hard for third world countries to grow.

Now we ask why developed countries don't help directly? Most governments of the developed world have ties to corporations. Thus corporate interests are made a higher priority than the welfare of some foreign country.

 

[128shot]

the blame isn't on the corporations, they come after the fact. Governments are always the main source of oppression.

 

[AlbqOwl]

thats the problem, its not like that. people don't have the chance to bring themselves out of poverty because corporations make sure that all other competition is eliminated. Thus with no competition, they can pay as little as they want. They influence oppressive and corrupt governments to smother free-market in these countries. Governments grow rich, corporations grow rich, people are screwed. This is the reason why its so hard for third world countries to grow.

Now we ask why developed countries don't help directly? Most governments of the developed world have ties to corporations. Thus corporate interests are made a higher priority than the welfare of some foreign country.

That dog just won't hunt. There is zero advantage to business to coerce what is tantamount to slave labor. It is when nations pull themselves out of poverty and become prosperous trading partners that U.S. business begins to really boom. There is considerable pressure from those impoverished nations who have at times discouraged higher pay for their workers that would put 'notions' into the heads of others. There is no simple solution, but whatever the political and social implications, something is generally regarded as better than nothing.

But again, what is our moral responsibility to people under the thumb of a brutal dictatorship or totalitarian regime?

 

[MiamiFlorida]

I tack the blame on slavery, imperialism, and colonialism. All 3 have happened under capitalism.

They all drink water too. Let's blame it on the water

 

[128shot]

They all drink water too. Let's blame it on the water

I laughed...


anyway.


You know what happend under "socialism" ?

roughly, 50 million dead......

but omg it was totalitarian you say?

stop the excuses, it was one form of socialism and you know it.

 

[MiamiFlorida]

thats the problem, its not like that. people don't have the chance to bring themselves out of poverty because corporations make sure that all other competition is eliminated. Thus with no competition, they can pay as little as they want. They influence oppressive and corrupt governments to smother free-market in these countries. Governments grow rich, corporations grow rich, people are screwed. This is the reason why its so hard for third world countries to grow.

Now we ask why developed countries don't help directly? Most governments of the developed world have ties to corporations. Thus corporate interests are made a higher priority than the welfare of some foreign country.

Here we go with the cult of victimology again.

The cult is absolutely nauseating, but an excellent strategic weapon used by corrupt and totalitarian regimes to draw western nations to their spider web.... where their politicians proceed to suck aid dollars for their Swiss bank accounts.

This victimhood complex is a media superweapon that every fundamentalist and revolutionary on the face of the planet uses as an ICBM (Intercontinental Bulls.....t Media).It must be noted that it only works on Western targets, infected with a liberal amount of guilt for making money. Third World ruling classes are immune.

Reforms toward a market economy, moderation in public spending, fiscal balance, privatizations, liberalizations, and the control of inflation do not take long in losing their attractiveness in the Third World. Their enemies.....neopopulists, coming out of the old Marxist left and at times out of the nationalist right--craftily discredit these measures, creating the label "neoliberalism"......and scapegoats abound. look at your "rich" corporations.

 

[ludahai]

I laughed...


anyway.


You know what happend under "socialism" ?

roughly, 50 million dead......

but omg it was totalitarian you say?

stop the excuses, it was one form of socialism and you know it.

Actually, I believe the number is closer to 100 million.

 

[128shot]

I only have numbers off the top of my head.

I didn't include Mao, that was my mistake...

 

[Chris]

In response to "Who is responsible for Third World poverty?" the answer depends a great deal on the specific country/region you're looking at.

Third world countries are poorer than first world countries for a variety of different reasons colonial history, ethnic strife, cruel or incompetent rulers, lack of economic freedom, etc. I don't believe that any one factor can be singled out and blamed for all the world's problems.

The term "third world" in itself is very misleading as different countries within this grouping have vastly different levels of social, economic, and political development. The situation in Brazil is very different from Ghana just as the situation in China (mainland) is very different from Tuvalu. As such the needs of people in say Cuba (where greater personal freedom is needed to progress a somewhat developed country) are vastly different to Niger (where basic essentials are needed simply to stabilize the country). Part of the reason first world efforts to solve third world poverty have been largely unsuccessful is because many try to solve world poverty rather than addressing the diverse needs of specific regions. When one tries to help too many people at once they often fail to help anyone.

 

[nkgupta80]

good post.

 

[Chris]

Many observers point the finger at colonialism as the primary reason for third world poverty. While the colonial legacy has certainly contributed to various conflicts which hamper development it is by no means the only factor as others have pointed out.

Many of the problems blamed on colonialism such as ethnic/religious conflict, extortion of laborers, slavery and others were problems that existed long before the rise of colonialism. Colonialism's legacy was that it exasperated many of these existing conflicts for the benefit of the colonizers, but it was not the underlying cause for many of them. While far out weighed by the negatives, some good did come of the increased outside contact that colonialism brought. The health and diet of many people improved considerably as a result of new foods and medication being introduced.

IMO the biggest obstacle to third world development in recent times are dictators like Kim Jong Il, Fidel Castro, Nursultan Nazerbayev, Robert Mugabe, the Saudi Royal family, Hosni Mubarak, Alyaksandr Lukashenka, Omar Hassan al Bashir, etc. As long as these cowards and their lackeys continue to extort wealth, limit personal freedom, and isolate their nations there is little if any hope for them.

Genuine democracy, although certainly preferable, is not even an essential element for a society to amass considerable economic wealth and power (mainland China is probably the most poignant example of this in recent times). As long as a population has the essentials for survival (food, water, shelter) and enough personal freedom to pursue their own enterprises free of interference any country has the potential to become economically powerful over time. How many would have expected America to be the economic powerhouse that it is today 200 years ago?

 

[nkgupta80]

Many observers point the finger at colonialism as the primary reason for third world poverty. While the colonial legacy has certainly contributed to various conflicts which hamper development it is by no means the only factor as others have pointed out.

colonialism was a big cause. It wasn't convential conquest, but basically turning whole regions into resource factories...this really tore up the fabric of society in those regions. but yes it is not the one final reason for the ongoing distress in these countries. Blaming it does no progress since it is now history. Understanding its effects however does help. That is the first step. Today the blame can go to many factors including education, bad corrupt government, corporate influence, foreign government intervention, and ethnic conflict.