Who is in the Right? (1 Viewer)

[tecoyah]

Given the statutes on file in this city......is it justified to appeal this descision?

Sea Scouts appeal speech ruling
Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO - The Berkeley Sea Scouts asked the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday to overturn a lower court decision requiring the group to pay berthing fees at the Berkeley Marina.

The California Supreme Court ruled in March that Berkeley did not violate the rights of the youth sailors connected to the Boy Scouts of America when it demanded marina fees because the group violates a city anti-discrimination policy.

The city revoked free berthing privileges for the Berkeley Sea Scouts because the Boy Scouts bar atheist and gay members, which violates the city's 1997 policy to provide free berthing to nonprofits that don't discriminate.

City officials told the Sea Scouts that the group could retain its berthing subsidy, valued at about $500 monthly per boat, if it broke ties with the Boy Scouts or disavowed the policy against gays and atheists.

The Sea Scouts, which teaches sailing, carpentry and plumbing, refused to do so and maintained that such an edict was unconstitutional.

 

[Hoot]

Based on only your article above, I believe the scouts should pay the berthing fees.

 

[talloulou]

Given the statutes on file in this city......is it justified to appeal this descision?

Sea Scouts appeal speech ruling
Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO - The Berkeley Sea Scouts asked the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday to overturn a lower court decision requiring the group to pay berthing fees at the Berkeley Marina.

The California Supreme Court ruled in March that Berkeley did not violate the rights of the youth sailors connected to the Boy Scouts of America when it demanded marina fees because the group violates a city anti-discrimination policy.

The city revoked free berthing privileges for the Berkeley Sea Scouts because the Boy Scouts bar atheist and gay members, which violates the city's 1997 policy to provide free berthing to nonprofits that don't discriminate.

City officials told the Sea Scouts that the group could retain its berthing subsidy, valued at about $500 monthly per boat, if it broke ties with the Boy Scouts or disavowed the policy against gays and atheists.

The Sea Scouts, which teaches sailing, carpentry and plumbing, refused to do so and maintained that such an edict was unconstitutional.

I personally don't like it. I don't feel it's right to use children and kids to wage political wars that often have little to do with them. I also don't see how you can expect all nonprofits to "not" discriminate. Does that mean the Boy Scouts would have to allow girls in their membership in order to be considered a group that doesn't discriminate?

Also to get a better feel for what's going on I'd like to see some case by case examples of these sea scouts treating people in a discriminatory way? Did any cases or instances actually come up? I couldn't find anything on google. To me it just appears that Berkeley is looking for a way to stir the pot and rage political wars and they'll take the fight anywhere even if it affects kids that are just trying to be sea scouts. Good Grief what a bunch of losers!

And what's up with the atheists? Do the kids have an oath that declares loyalty to God or something! Oh those evil brats. Hmmm I wonder if the atheists can cause problems for great non profits like the salvation army? Wouldn't that be grand?

 

[talloulou]

Hmmm so I did some more homework and read the Sea Scout website. I couldn't find anything on their website that mentioned gays or lesbians or heterosexuals. In fact nothing about sexual orientation or sex at all. So unless I missed their big sign that says they only accept heterosexuals as members.....I'm not getting that part.

I did find all their oaths and what not.....

I promise to do my duty to God, and
Help strengthen America;
To help others, and
To seek truth, fairness, and adventure in our world.

Scout Oath or Promise Scout Law On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight. A Scout is ...
trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,
thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.


http://www.seascout.org/

Hmmm is "morally straight" the big problem? And clearly they promise to do their duty to God......oh those evil bastardz....:rofl

 

[tecoyah]

Actually....had they dropped affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America.....they would have maintained exempt status under the Laws of the city. They were informed of this....and declined, prefering to make a political point it seems.

In my mind...this IS discrimination:

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have religion." From the book "Scouting for Boys" by Robert Lord Baden Powell (founder of the Scouting movement).
* "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." Boy Scouts of America, Bylaws.
* "Any organization could profit from a 10-year-old member with enough strength of character to refuse to swear falsely." Editorial, New York Times, 1993-DEC-12, commenting on the Boy Scouts' exclusion of a young Atheist.
* "If a youth comes to a Scoutmaster and admits to doing wrong, like stealing, lying, cheating or vandalizing, the normal procedure is to counsel the youth privately and sympathetically...If the youth admits to being a homosexual, the Boy Scouts' policy is to instantly terminate his association with Scouting." Findings of fact, in a DC court case 1
* "Obviously, the Boy Scouts can accept and reject whomever they wish. But officials should bear in mind that they, like the Christian Right and the Anglican bishops, are disserving the nation's boys -- mere children -- when teaching them to hate fellow humans." Bill Maxwell, St. Petersburg Times, 1998-AUG-9"

 

[talloulou]

Look I think the city of Berkeley is within their right to terminate free use of the dock. And I don't think the Supreme Court will or should overrule the decision.

However I still think it stinks big time. There was no "incident" that prompted this change. There was no circumstance that highlighted the atrocities of these sea scouts.

This is a witch hunt. These kids are an easy target for groups with an agenda. I think that sucks. I don't believe in using children to rage political war and further political agendas. While I can understand why groups would be unhappy with any anti-homosexual propaganda I have absolutely zero sympathy for the atheist slant. Gimme a friggin break. Are atheists gonna become the new victim group....always crying about how unfairly they are being treated. That's just freaking insane.

Now as for the homosexual thing.....if there were an actual incident where this particular group threw out a child or leader for being gay or lesbian then I'd have less sympathy for the kids. However to just target them in a general way for no reason is lame. These kids are not enemy number one in the battle for homosexual equality.

 

[Jerry]

Given the statutes on file in this city......is it justified to appeal this descision?

Sea Scouts appeal speech ruling
Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO - The Berkeley Sea Scouts asked the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday to overturn a lower court decision requiring the group to pay berthing fees at the Berkeley Marina.

The California Supreme Court ruled in March that Berkeley did not violate the rights of the youth sailors connected to the Boy Scouts of America when it demanded marina fees because the group violates a city anti-discrimination policy.

The city revoked free berthing privileges for the Berkeley Sea Scouts because the Boy Scouts bar atheist and gay members, which violates the city's 1997 policy to provide free berthing to nonprofits that don't discriminate.

City officials told the Sea Scouts that the group could retain its berthing subsidy, valued at about $500 monthly per boat, if it broke ties with the Boy Scouts or disavowed the policy against gays and atheists.

The Sea Scouts, which teaches sailing, carpentry and plumbing, refused to do so and maintained that such an edict was unconstitutional.

Freedom comes at a price, not always in red blood, but sometimes in green cash. Sure, the Boy Scouts have the legal right to appeal whatever they wish, but they shame themselves in doing so.

Dues payers should pony up the fees proudly and freely in support of the Scouts, not quibble in court.

 

[Jerry]

....This is a witch hunt. These kids are an easy target for groups with an agenda. I think that sucks. I don't believe in using children to rage political war and further political agendas. While I can understand why groups would be unhappy with any anti-homosexual propaganda I have absolutely zero sympathy for the atheist slant. Gimme a friggin break. Are atheists gonna become the new victim group....always crying about how unfairly they are being treated. That's just freaking insane.....

The atheist is the new Black.

 

[jfuh]

Since when did being a scout have anything to do with sexual orientation? It's just stupid. Let kids be kids and leave them out of the rediculous homophobia that adults have - wankers.

 

[Deegan]

I feel bad for the kids, I think I'll just see if I can't help pay their fee, instead of my first knee jerk reaction, which is to hate these people. That said, the scouts have set themselves, and their members up for this abuse, too bad the kids are the ones suffering.

 

[tecoyah]

The atheist is the new Black.

As a Pagan, I have a certain understanding of this issue, it is my own, and need not be extrapolated to the realm of an atheist but still has some bearing on what underlies this debate. I actually do take issue with swearing to a Christian God, as I do not believe in it, thus to take a pledge, or pray to such an entity is to lie to myself, and anyone who believes me. While I understand full well many who claim the christian faith do not actually follow the tenants, let alone truly believe in this God.....I am not them, and consider such a thing Bad Karma.
To attempt to force me to do so is an affront to my own beliefs, and discriminates against such, thus I cannot in good faith submit to an oath devoted to such an entity. Granted, I am free to practice my own faith, but the spiral scouts (A Pagan/Unitarian troup) have no issue with Christians joining the ranks....thus no discrimination. The issue is not one of Children having fun anymore, the Boy Scouts have made it political simply by the charter they uphold, and by affiliation, so have the Sea Scouts.

 

[talloulou]

As a Pagan, I have a certain understanding of this issue, it is my own, and need not be extrapolated to the realm of an atheist but still has some bearing on what underlies this debate. I actually do take issue with swearing to a Christian God, as I do not believe in it, thus to take a pledge, or pray to such an entity is to lie to myself, and anyone who believes me. While I understand full well many who claim the christian faith do not actually follow the tenants, let alone truly believe in this God.....I am not them, and consider such a thing Bad Karma.
To attempt to force me to do so is an affront to my own beliefs, and discriminates against such, thus I cannot in good faith submit to an oath devoted to such an entity. Granted, I am free to practice my own faith, but the spiral scouts (A Pagan/Unitarian troup) have no issue with Christians joining the ranks....thus no discrimination. The issue is not one of Children having fun anymore, the Boy Scouts have made it political simply by the charter they uphold, and by affiliation, so have the Sea Scouts.

I consider myself to be agnostic but I'm not bothered at all but other people expressing religion especially when it's something like "duty to God" with God being pretty undefined. I chose not to send my kids to Catholic school becaue I was concerned that there would be an element of "brainwashing." However a small mention of God in a boy scout oath, the pledge of allegiance, or on the dollar bill doesn't bother me in the least. However even as an agnostic......I admit I will sometimes involuntarily whisper Our Fathers and Hail Mary's when the airplane I'm on starts bouncing around. What's up with that?

I don't know maybe I think all this atheist crap gets out of hand because I was raised on christianity and even though I've mostly left it behind perhaps its roots in my foundation leave me sympathetic towards it. I just don't get what the big deal is. Plus you don't have to join the sea scouts. Join a different group that doesn't have God in the oath.

 

[Jerry]

As a Pagan, I have a certain understanding of this issue, it is my own, and need not be extrapolated to the realm of an atheist but still has some bearing on what underlies this debate. I actually do take issue with swearing to a Christian God, as I do not believe in it, thus to take a pledge, or pray to such an entity is to lie to myself, and anyone who believes me. While I understand full well many who claim the christian faith do not actually follow the tenants, let alone truly believe in this God.....I am not them, and consider such a thing Bad Karma.
To attempt to force me to do so is an affront to my own beliefs, and discriminates against such, thus I cannot in good faith submit to an oath devoted to such an entity. Granted, I am free to practice my own faith, but the spiral scouts (A Pagan/Unitarian troup) have no issue with Christians joining the ranks....thus no discrimination. The issue is not one of Children having fun anymore, the Boy Scouts have made it political simply by the charter they uphold, and by affiliation, so have the Sea Scouts.

As a former pagan I tell you truly that there are no real or valid god's in Wicca, Odinism, etc. There is only one true God, and I'll grant you that not all cultures see the one true God or His son in the same light, but all other "little g"s' are either legendary people, personified Archetypes, dead people, falsely worshiped Elohim or Nefilim; Without exception.

So go ahead and have your cute lil "affronts", it matters not.

To take the ideal from a moral-relativist pro-choice argument: "If you don't like the pledge, don't say it". Or how about: "If you don't like the Scouts, don't join them."

If people who wish to see those of us who oppose forwarding immoral behaviors as "normal, natural and healthy", as possessing irrational fear, I'll support your constitutionally protected right to say exactly that.

 

[jfuh]

I feel bad for the kids, I think I'll just see if I can't help pay their fee, instead of my first knee jerk reaction, which is to hate these people. That said, the scouts have set themselves, and their members up for this abuse, too bad the kids are the ones suffering.

The scouts didn't, thier moronic mentors and so on are the ones to be hated. What's even worse is thier using the kids as thier shield for thier own agendas. Driving themselves into bankruptcy though.

 

[talloulou]

As a former pagan I tell you truly that there are no real or valid god's in Wicca, Odinism, etc. There is only one true God, and I'll grant you that not all cultures see the one true God or His son in the same light, but all other "little g"s' are either legendary people, personified Archetypes, dead people, falsely worshiped Elohim or Nefilim; Without exception.

Good grief Jerry!

If people who wish to see those of us who oppose forwarding immoral behaviors as "normal, natural and healthy", as possessing irrational fear, I'll support your constitutionally protected right to say exactly that.

:rofl

You know between you agreeing with me often and jfuh practically agreeing with me today I may have to change my complete world view! Clearly I went wrong somewhere. :mrgreen:

 

[Jerry]

Good grief Jerry!

:fueltofir

:rofl
You know between you agreeing with me often and jfuh practically agreeing with me today I may have to change my complete world view! Clearly I went wrong somewhere. :mrgreen:

No, it is I who needs the spank-- er, I mean, correction :devil:

 

[Pen]

The city revoked free berthing privileges for the Berkeley Sea Scouts because the Boy Scouts bar atheist and gay members, which violates the city's 1997 policy to provide free berthing to nonprofits that don't discriminate.

The city is clearly following their written policy. I do wonder about the timing and what may have caused the city to reevaluate the sea scouts eligibility, but I see no "evil" intent here.

 

[Pen]

And I mean this dead seriously, the Boy Scouts of America is one of the best organizations in these United States, and I can't believe that you'd write off these people who VOLUNTEER their time to make children's lives better, make them better people, so that they not only improve their own lives, but the lives of those around them, just because the organization finds homosexuality immoral!

It is more than that, galenrox, in that the belief in God is central to the Boy Scouts. I fully agree with you on the great service that BSA provides boys, and the very best become Eagle Scouts. Perhaps you recall the national controversy that occurred two or three years ago concerning an Eagle Scout? It is top of mind for me, because he was a local young man and was well thought of by all who knew him. The problem was that he had ceased to believe in God and had been mumbling the pledge for several years. He was about to be elected to a leadership position when he made the decision to inform his leaders that he would not be able to lead young scouts in the pledge or continue to be dishonest in his beliefs. This young man of great potential was forced to resign by the national leadership.

My reason for this long story is that I believe the strength of the Scouts is found locally, and that nationally it is very driven by it's ideology.

 

[southern_liberal]

The atheist is the new Black.

I'd like for you to elaborate on this please.

 

[southern_liberal]

To take the ideal from a moral-relativist pro-choice argument: "If you don't like the pledge, don't say it". Or how about: "If you don't like the Scouts, don't join them."

If people who wish to see those of us who oppose forwarding immoral behaviors as "normal, natural and healthy", as possessing irrational fear, I'll support your constitutionally protected right to say exactly that.

and how about "if your group can't abide by city law, pay the berthing fee"

What I find irrational is the way conservatives feel they have the the market cornered on what is normal, natural and healthy. Who gave y'all that kind of authority? I didn't and I doubt millions of other Americans gave you the authority to make that decision for them.

If the scouts need to use those peers for free, they need to operate in accordance with local law. If not, then they have to pay.

 

[Jerry]

and how about "if your group can't abide by city law, pay the berthing fee"..........If the scouts need to use those peers for free, they need to operate in accordance with local law. If not, then they have to pay.

Yup. That's what I said in post 7.

What I find irrational is the way conservatives feel they have the the market cornered on what is normal, natural and healthy. Who gave y'all that kind of authority? I didn't and I doubt millions of other Americans gave you the authority to make that decision for them.

Heh, moral relativism, best show around.

You can not choose what is healthy and what is unhealthy anymore than you can choose what minerals your body needs. Something is either healthy or it is not.

"I chose for my self that fire is good for me, and you have no authority to tell me otherwise." Then when I pull out a Zippo, light it, and try to nurse it like a drink, according to your moral relativism it will be a nutritious snack.

No, I'll burn my lips off.
Silly liberal, you're funny.

 

[talloulou]

Heh, moral relativism, best show around.

You can not choose what is healthy and what is unhealthy anymore than you can choose what minerals your body needs. Something is either healthy or it is not.

"I chose for my self that fire is good for me, and you have no authority to tell me otherwise." Then when I pull out a Zippo, light it, and try to nurse it like a drink, according to your moral relativism it will be a nutritious snack.

No, I'll burn my lips off.
Silly liberal, you're funny.

Yeah but Jerry the problem is there are just some things that don't matter either way. Is blue kool aid better than red kool aid? It's when you take a topic like that and all the sudden you have groups screaming that blue kool aid is unhealthy. Sometimes they're right and sometimes it's all nonsense.

 

[Jerry]

Yeah but Jerry the problem is there are just some things that don't matter either way. Is blue kool aid better than red kool aid? It's when you take a topic like that and all the sudden you have groups screaming that blue kool aid is unhealthy. Sometimes they're right and sometimes it's all nonsense.

Red koolaid=food and blue koolaid=fire?

 

[Alex]

The issue here for me is that tax-payer's money is going to a group that discriminates against gays and Atheists. So a gay person's, or an Atheist's, child cannot join the Scouts but their tax money can go to fund them? Clearly wrong.

Want to resolve this issue once and for all? Stop funding non-profit organizations with tax-payer's money. Then they can do whatever they want without any problems.

 

[Pen]

The issue here for me is that tax-payer's money is going to a group that discriminates against gays and Atheists. So a gay person's, or an Atheist's, child cannot join the Scouts but their tax money can go to fund them? Clearly wrong.

Want to resolve this issue once and for all? Stop funding non-profit organizations with tax-payer's money. Then they can do whatever they want without any problems.

No good deed goes unpunished. I say, lets ban all altruism. :shock: